Anyone here from Germany? What exactly are your electricity costs?

[Gyfts]

The difference between Spain and Germany is because Germany use more gaz than Electricity (IICRC), and since some decades, in Europe, the electricity's network is "connected". We can trade/block/limit between countries. Added to the fact that Spain, as well as Portugual are at the end of this network so the price isn't the same depending on the country.

Roughly half of Germans use gas to heat their homes, so yes, you're correct - https://www.dw.com/en/germany-stockpiling-wood-in-fear-of-gas-shortage/a-62601419

It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.

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[DrBeer]

Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.

Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.

I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).

Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.

I will give, for reference, the most specialized and accurate information available to me on nuclear energy. This article includes very useful information - IAEA reporting in the form of a map of the distribution of uranium ore deposits.
This article is in Ukrainian, but everyone can easily translate it into their native language.
https://www.uatom.org/uranovi-obyekty

A little digression - for fans of the fantasy "about the ban of the Russian language in Ukraine" - on this state site, in the upper right corner, there is a language switcher, there is an English version and ... including a version in Russian
So, the largest deposits of uranium ores in Europe are ... in Ukraine!
Yes, someone will say - mining is mining, but enrichment, without it, nuclear power plants will not work on uranium ore! Of course I agree - it is, everything is true!
It is true that the distribution of ore deposits, that processing, none of these factors make Russia a monopolist, and, accordingly, there is no dependence. Well, if you do not listen to propaganda, but rely on reality.
The only thing I still agree with is that only those who decided, without thinking, to buy Russian nuclear power plants, fell into a trap and, accordingly, become dependent on their supplies from Russia
The rest of the world uses fuel produced by the countries of the real leaders in the production of nuclear fuel. And the first three places look like this:
Kazakhstan (41% of world supplies in 2020)
Australia (13%)
Namibia (11%)

Well, on whom does the world of nuclear power plants depend more? It even depends on Namibia more than on Russia

Oh, and one more factor, about the prospects: "Some Member States are showing particular interest in the thorium fuel cycle, which can open the way to a sustainable build-up of nuclear power capacity. The main incentives for the use of thorium are its abundance in nature, inertness and better properties compared to uranium, higher burnup, suitability for use in fuel cycles with high conversion rates, and inherent resistance to proliferation Some countries are conducting R&D aimed at future use of thorium in addition to uranium as a main source of fuel or instead of him."
https://www.iaea.org/topics/uranium-production

[fullhdpixel]

More precisely, a mixture of 80% hydrogen and 20% natural gas (because hydrogen itself is a very volatile gas). For this mixture, the existing infrastructure of gas pipelines and underground storage facilities can be operated without changes. Moreover, two years ago the European Union published a hydrogen strategy for a climate-neutral Europe. Of course, the covid-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine have pretty much confused the cards, but the EU has no other strategy on this issue.

I mean if they could do that, they could definitely find a supplement that would help, but we still need to go with the renewable route and if we do not then we are going to have a trouble. All the things we need gas for, should be turning into electricity, maybe "some" stuff won't but it needs to be done and it needs to be done right now.

I know that it is not going to be an easy task, but finding supplements right now is not the solution neither. Hydrogen or not, it is going to take a ton of money to replace, and when we have something much better with solar, water wind, and so forth, changing gas needs to electricity needs would be a smarter and easier transition.

[LoyceV]

10x more seems a bit excessive and I really hope this is not going to be the case.

ANWB has Dutch electricity prices (market prices) per day/week/month/year for the past years, excluding taxes.
This is 3 years ago (August 2019):

This is now (August 2022):


I'll highlight a day:
August 19, 2019 (a Monday):


August 19, 2022 (a Friday):

That's a 16-fold increase on August 19 in just 3 years.
I'm pretty sure our prices are very similar to German prices.

Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be.

Sorry, this 17 days old post is outdated. Natural gas is now 20 times more expensive than it used to be.

Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.

[Lucius]

It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.

You cannot sit on two chairs at the same time (although some try) and at the same time support sanctions and import Russian gas. The entire EU had a choice, to turn its head to the other side and pretend that nothing important is happening, or to stand firmly towards Russia, even if it means paying dearly for it. All those stories about someone freezing next winter have already become ridiculous because there will be enough gas from other sources, although the price for the end consumer will be much higher.

I can't speak for the average EU resident, but considering that my country experienced a similar war as Ukraine now, and that they were one of the first countries to recognize our independence, I give them full support, even if it means that I have to pay more for electricity or gas - human lives and survival have no price.

[tygeade]

The difference between Spain and Germany is because Germany use more gaz than Electricity (IICRC), and since some decades, in Europe, the electricity's network is "connected". We can trade/block/limit between countries. Added to the fact that Spain, as well as Portugual are at the end of this network so the price isn't the same depending on the country.

Roughly half of Germans use gas to heat their homes, so yes, you're correct - https://www.dw.com/en/germany-stockpiling-wood-in-fear-of-gas-shortage/a-62601419

It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.

Isn't that the type of stance that we need in order to stop this madness we are in? I mean it is easier to see that we shouldn't help Russia one way or another and that means we shouldn't be getting gas or anything like that from them.

Wood, or gas from somewhere else, or set your lighter on fire if you want, burn your clothes, I don't care how terrible it gets for Germans or even me, I just want Russia to realize that if they keep attacking Ukraine, and do not give the lands back, they are going to be shut off from West and that would mean a lot of profit lost to them in the near future and it will only go worse from there which means they will be financially getting terrible in the long run.

[DrBeer]

You can discuss for a long time how much the price has risen, how much, how much, how to heat the house - with lighters or firewood, wear 3 sweaters or 2 fur coats. The essence does not change, Germany and some EU countries, you just need to realize that once a mistake was made. The error is very serious. And it needs to be corrected. These mistakes are akin to serious diseases - if you deny it, and continue to live as you lived and not be treated - I think everyone understands the ending. Now they are at a crossroads - to continue to ignore the problem (illness) or to recognize and start correcting it fundamentally (to be treated). I believe in reason. And I am sure that in 2-3 years the EU will forget that there was once such a supplier of gas and oil as Russia.

[STT]

They can get alternatives, there is also the obvious of just using up less gas.   Many european countries have been forced to switch to biogas previously, they can use it now though its not as convenient or easy to get hold of as freshly delivered natural gas.    Theres all kinds of alternatives, mostly they wont be as efficient or cleanly burning.  I always thought it was quite dull not to realize gas is a clean fuel compared to the majority available, its just leaning on Russia was a mistake obvious every year for the last 22 years and it was ignored.
   Energy security was considered as a problem a long time ago and then they went to sleep on it, even after 2014 not considering of how that situation can spread. Its a failure of governance and good strategic planning, nobody wants to state that and admit they failed.   I hope they do admit and correct for future purposes but I think Germany can get past this and others, at some cost.

[LeGaulois]

Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.

I hope you don't forget that this situation is temporary. It' s currently the governments that compensate the difference by indemnifying the energy companies (as you surely know).
It is obvious that these compensations will end sooner or later (in December in my country but it should be the same in the rest of Europe). What will happen then? Full price and right on time when the winter will begin. Jackpot! Don't be surprised if the price increases X3

just a price example from here https://imgur.com/a/qAHD15Q
about 0.37€ per Kwh. Great deal, heating will become for the rich
by the way, in my country, we pay a tax based on taxes (a tax of taxes). how crazy is it?

And to the user who mentioned the need to switch to hydrogen:
yes, it was the plan in Europe...with hydrogen coming from...Russia  

[adaseb]

Couple of days ago Germans PPI was released and it was something like 5% but it wasn’t per year it was per month. So it seems these energy prices are having a huge toll.

I wonder what will happen with large auto companies like BMW and VW. How will they be able to sell vehicles if their PPI is so much higher. Most likely won’t be able to compete with other brands stationed elsewhere in the world.

[xSkylarx]

I searched on google what is the source of Germany's electricity and found out that they mainly use coal similar to our country. Here in ours, electricity costs have also gone more than double compared from previous years that the electricity bill of a regular household is 25% of a minimum-wage earner salary. I think the conflict between Ukraine and Russia has something to do with this issue because Russia is one of the largest coal producer in the world.

[be.open]

And to the user who mentioned the need to switch to hydrogen:
yes, it was the plan in Europe...with hydrogen coming from...Russia  

Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth. It can be hydrogen from different sources, marked with different colors depending on the type of generation and the degree of its environmental friendliness (green, blue, orange, brown, etc.), but it is still a flammable, odorless and colorless volatile gas that can be be used as an energy source without astronomical infrastructure investments. Hydrogen has no nationality.

Besides, the European Union still has no other strategy. And frantically trying to plug holes in the energy supply is not a strategy.

[LoyceV]

Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.

I hope you don't forget that this situation is temporary. It' s currently the governments that compensate the difference by indemnifying the energy companies (as you surely know).

I meant the relative difference is less because of taxes: if you used to pay 75 cents per m³, and the gas price itself went up 20-fold, you'll now pay "only" 6 times more.

by the way, in my country, we pay a tax based on taxes (a tax of taxes). how crazy is it?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm pretty sure the Dutch government invented that

I searched on google what is the source of Germany's electricity and found out that they mainly use coal similar to our country.

Natural gas is used for more than just electricity production, and they wanted to get rid of coal because of (not very realistic) climate goals.

Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth.

Natural gas isn't scarce. It's still very cheap in many countries. Transportation is what gets you, and hydrogen would be no different even if it would be abundent somewhere (which it isn't).

[be.open]

Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth.

Natural gas isn't scarce. It's still very cheap in many countries. Transportation is what gets you, and hydrogen would be no different even if it would be abundent somewhere (which it isn't).

In this case, Germany has no reasonable alternatives other than to receive energy from Russia through existing main pipelines, or to start generating hydrogen on its own.

[$anounimus$]

I am not from germany regarding expensive electricity which is not surprising, considering that Germany is a developed country with high taxes and living costs. As far as I know that on a macro scale, historically, Europe has simply lacked the energy flowing through Eastern Europe. But it seems fair to say that German electricity is relatively expensive compared to the US.

[LoyceV]

or to start generating hydrogen on its own.

From what? Gas? That's the problem: hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's an energy carrier.

[be.open]

or to start generating hydrogen on its own.

From what? Gas? That's the problem: hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's an energy carrier.

There are many options - using green energy from windmills and solar panels (green hydrogen), using gas (blue hydrogen), using nuclear power plants (orange hydrogen) or even burning coal (brown hydrogen). Moreover, one option does not exclude any others and does not require an exclusive contract for its implementation.

And if Germany simply has a common problem with energy, then it needs to somehow learn to bring its energy balance back to normal, and not engage in vampirism, sucking out excess energy from donor countries in exchange for its depreciating euros. What kind of a locomotive country is this if it does not have enough energy? Germany needs to be more modest in its ambitions.

[stompix]

This is now (August 2018 < doubt that):

Look at the bright side, it's 33% cheaper than it was in March: 

[/quote]

From what? Gas? That's the problem: hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's an energy carrier.

Hydrogen is an energy source, otherwise, you could say that both natural gas and oil are energy carriers too.
Hydrogen has one advantage, it can be generated from excess energy on the grid, like when Germany gets a sunny day and all those solar panels start to actually produce something or when the wind blows in all of Europe right in the middle of the night when there is no consumption, store it and then burn it though rainy and no wind days.

Reading an article like this one seems quite funny right now:
https://www.powerengineeringint.com/world-regions/europe/three-quarters-of-2020-see-negative-power-prices-in-europe/

[LoyceV]

Hydrogen is an energy source, otherwise, you could say that both natural gas and oil are energy carriers too.

That's not the definition of energy source. Electricity isn't an energy source either, but sunlight is.

Hydrogen has one advantage, it can be generated from excess energy on the grid

True, but to do that, you'll need much more hydrogen generating capacity, and much more solar/wind farms. And still, that doesn't cover the energy needs in winter.

Reading an article like this one seems quite funny right now:
https://www.powerengineeringint.com/world-regions/europe/three-quarters-of-2020-see-negative-power-prices-in-europe/

We've had negative prices several times this year too. In a country where most houses don't have airconditioning, solar energy has a very low economic value during the hours that it's most productive.

[stompix]

Hydrogen has one advantage, it can be generated from excess energy on the grid

True, but to do that, you'll need much more hydrogen generating capacity, and much more solar/wind farms. And still, that doesn't cover the energy needs in winter.

I think you missed the point about storage, you can store hydrogen just as you store natural gas, it can be turned into liquid as LNG, it can be stored in pressure tanks it can even be stored in salt caverns. Or if you have the energy to spare you can simply transform it into methane gas, it's like one of easiest chemical reaction in the world, especially if you're in a pinch and you already burn coal.

We've had negative prices several times this year too. In a country where most houses don't have airconditioning, solar energy has a very low economic value during the hours that it's most productive.

And there you have it, use that energy to produce hydrogen, rather than throwing it away or letting that sunlight go to waste as it heats the roofs when you don't need it, in the Netherlands I think you actually have few options left, it's not like you can build a pump storage dam anywhere to store energy.

LE:
Of course, there is Groningen..but...