Trustdice.win , UPD: TRUSTDICE SCAM, 2138$ USDT confiscated. (SOLVED)

[EthMcEthPants]

The argument from TD is absurd, NBA games are by far the most egregious in terms of starting way after start time, and OP should get his money back unless multiple examples can be presented of a) OP placing bets right at the end of the period, and b) right before a favourable event happened (e.g. Placing a bet on the over with 30 seconds left right before a 3 pointer is hit, prior to the odds getting updated). The fact that the only example presented did not show this is quite poor.

Providers also have access to feeds far faster than any stream and generally take awhile to confirm whether to accept live bets (especially towards the end of the games) should already mean that this practice is all but impossible remotely

[Laki21000]

According to the terms and conditions of the TrustDice website,
*19.4 In the event of any dispute, you agree that the server logs and records shall act as the final authority in determining the outcome of any claim. You agree that in the unlikely event of a disagreement between the result that appears on your screen and the game server, the result that was logged on the game server will prevail, and you acknowledge and agree that our records will be the final authority in determining the terms and circumstances of your participation in the relevant online gaming activity and the results of this participation.

consequently the claims that were made against me are not true, according to the terms and conditions, I ask for my winnings to be withdraw to me.

[Pmalek]

As a reputable casino & bookie, we try our best communicate with the Bitcointalk community, but when you say NBA games "always begin with a delay", it doesn't seem consistent with what I (the marketing guy behind this post) know.

Don't try to twist my words please. I wasn't talking about NBA exclusively, was I?. I said US sports, as in all the major sports being played in The States. And then I mentioned the ones I am familiar with. On top of that, I would like to mention NCAA college basketball as well. Sometimes it happens that two NCAA matches are broadcast on the same channel one after the other. If one match starts late (which they do) or lasts longer than expected, so does the other one. If the first match goes into overtime, for example, the second sometimes doesn't tip off before the first one ends. There are various combinations. If you are not aware of US sports beginning with a delay than I am afraid you don't know that much.   

I no longer watch NBA these days, but when I did, delays of over 10 minutes were rare.

A 10-mins delay is still a delay, is it not? And that's what I said. US sports begin with a delay and never on time.

My knowledge might not be the most up-to-date and perhaps NBAs do always start with a delay these days. Therefore, could you kindly provide a reliable source of statistics supporting the claim that NBA games "always begin with a delay" and "can be as little as 10 minutes or even up to 30-40 mins"?

You are unbelievable. You just said in your previous sentence that from your experience NBA matches begin later than expected, even if only 10 minutes. You don't need a source. Take a look at tonight's program of US sports, pick a few matches, log in to bet365 (because they stream them live) and see at what time they will start.

You are the one that needs to provide proof that the player is doing late betting. You haven't done it yet. We have established that the bets the player placed on the match you used as an example was done with 8-9 mins left in the 4th quarter.

I am very close to suggesting that OP should create a flag against your casino and tag you as a scammer. I am going to support those tags unless you provide a valid reason why you have confiscated the player's funds with data that can be publicly verified with sources like BetsAPI. Are you going to provide proof or not? 

I am tagging LoyceV in this post. Let's see what one of the most trusted members of this forum thinks of "the proof" you have presented thus far. @LoyceV I know there is a lot to read but take as much time as you need, and share your thoughts if you feel you can contribute to the issue.   

[Poika5]

Coinbox1 edited his first post, RIP.

Throughout this entire thread, we discussed with Mr. Pmalek about this case for days. However, as Mr. Pmalek started to distort our words and put words in our mouths, the conversation gets increasingly non-constructive and unproductive. Having this type of conversion is inconsistent with how we do business, therefore we eventually decide to stop participating in this thread.

Make no mistake, some else's behavior won't affect OP's case. We still look forward to resolving this issue with the OP, who’s been labelled as abuser by our sports provider initially. If anyone can find following information, please feel free to send to info@trustdice.win so we can forward it to our sports provider for them to consider:

Then why you've been ignoring him for the past 5 days?
Your sports provider wouldn't label OP as an abuser, they are not that stupid.

- The actual time the game was delayed.

Irrelevant

- The exact score and countdown at 3:54 a.m. (UTC) on December 1, when the OP placed his bet.

The score was HOU 79, DEN 106
4th 9:07 Full timeout (Timeout #4)
https://betsapi.com/rs/cloudbet/5486040/HOU-Rockets-vs-DEN-Nuggets

- The exact time the timer started running and the actual length of the game.

Irrelevant

[Laki21000]

@coinbox1, please turn off the who is offended at everyone because you are accused of something, and conduct a constructive dialogue, there are more than 40 messages where evidence has already been provided for my bet, what else do you want?  maybe you need to go to the stadium cleaner and find out when the match started?  what are you even carrying?
@holydarkness told you all the movement of the match and made an assumption, I think they are good in resolving the dispute, but since you ran out of arguments, you decided to behave properly, strange

these are all people independent of me, can you still say that I am in cahoots with them?  what will you say next to protect your "scam casino"?

Make no mistake, some else's behavior won't affect OP's case. We still look forward to resolving this issue with the OP, who’s been labelled as abuser by our sports provider initially. If anyone can find following information, please feel free to send to info@trustdice.win so we can forward it to our sports provider for them to reconsider:
- The actual time the game was delayed.
- The exact score and countdown at 3:54 a.m. (UTC) on December 1, when the OP placed his bet.
- The exact time the timer started running and the actual length of the game.


Sincerely,
TrustDice Team

you write misleading users, you never answered my mail after sentencing me, it’s as if your mail is dead where you don’t answer anyone

Then why you've been ignoring him for the past 5 days?
Your sports provider wouldn't label OP as an abuser, they are not that stupid

because they don’t care about us, the players, they are sitting here to protect their reputation, nothing more, this is done so that new players come and leave money with them, they don’t care about me and you, judging by the behavior of @coinbox1, this is obvious


_______________________________________________________________________________ __________

https://statsdmz.nba.com/pdfs/20221130/20221130_HOUDEN_book.pdf (OFFICIAL NBA SITE)

go to the site nba.com and there will be match statistics, I will attach it now, I hope this is the right source for you
_______________________________________________________________________________ ___________________
Can this be considered evidence that the start time of the match was indicated in the official report of the NBA, on the site nba.com?

https://imgur.com/a/ohe6Mh4
https://imgur.com/a/W9u4Y8f

My bet was made at 8:53pm, match started at 7:10pm, 4th quarter started at 8:48pm, match ended at 9:13pm, match duration 2 hours 23 minutes, I think that's enough to understand everything.  I do not know what time zone is indicated in the document. (Time is from NBA report file)

I consider this the most official of the most official sources to prove all match times.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

Are you done?

Now with that out of the way, the only way forward is you proving that the player is a malicious person who partakes in frowned upon activities such as late betting. You have not done that yet and instead you have made yourself look ridiculous with claims that bets were placed at the end of the matches. If you can't prove the player is a cheater, his account needs to be unlocked, so that he can withdraw the winnings.

Do you have any plans to post some proof of a late bet? It shouldn't be that hard for you since there are so many examples in the OP's betting history, right? I wonder why it takes so long...

[Laki21000]

In my opinion, the case has reached a dead end, or they don’t want to solve it, or they no longer have arguments

[holydarkness]

I think some clarification is needed here, some aspect needed to be straigthened out.

First of all, Coinbox1allow me to edit-slash-quote the post you quoted with the unsnipped version that will give a broader and almost different meaning than what your cleverly snipped version conveyed, marked in italic with key notes marked in red.

[...]

Dear Bitcointalk community,

Throughout this entire thread, we discussed with Mr. Pmalek about this case for days. However, as Mr. Pmalek started to distort our words and put words in our mouths, the conversation gets increasingly non-constructive and unproductive. Having this type of conversion is inconsistent with how we do business, therefore we eventually decide to stop participating in this thread.

Here is an example of how Mr. Pmalek distorts our words.
We said:

As a reputable casino & bookie, we try our best communicate with the Bitcointalk community, but when you say NBA games "always begin with a delay", it doesn't seem consistent with what I (the marketing guy behind this post) know.

I no longer watch NBA these days, but when I did, delays of over 10 minutes were rare. My knowledge might not be the most up-to-date and perhaps NBAs do always start with a delay these days. Therefore, could you kindly provide a reliable source of statistics supporting the claim that NBA games "always begin with a delay" and "can be as little as 10 minutes or even up to 30-40 mins"?

Then Mr. Pmalek started to distort the meaning of that sentence:

You just said in your previous sentence that from your experience NBA matches begin later than expected, even if only 10 minutes.

No, we didn’t say "NBA matches begin later than expected". We said “delays of over 10 minutes were rare." In English, when we say something is "rare", it means the thing is very unusual. It doesn't mean the thing's opposite definitely always happens. So when we say "delays of over 10 minutes were rare", it means "delays of over 10 minutes" are very unusual. It doesn't mean "delays of below 10 minutes" definitely always happens. For everyone's reference, here comes a ink to Cambridge Dictionary.

If I may stressed the point you tried to prove on those posts were that OP bet at a very late of the game, because the game started at 02.00 of OP's local time, with an assumption that average NBA game lasts 2h13m, so at 03.54, OP's bet --according to you, at that moment--  is near the end of the game where the result is predictable --I'd leave the "fact" that according to your own data and assumption at that point, there's still 19 mins left on the game, that's 1 quarter of a basketball match itself-- and can be considered as a late betting, which later Pmalek argued that your calculation should include the delay that happen on the opening of the game, thus OP's timing to place his bet is even further from the end of the game.

Sadly, instead of examining his own behaviors, Mr. Pmalek decided to strike first and accuse us first.

This is his accusation:

Don't try to twist my words please. I wasn't talking about NBA exclusively, was I?. I said US sports, as in all the major sports being played in The States. And then I mentioned the ones I am familiar with. On top of that, I would like to mention NCAA college basketball as well. Sometimes it happens that two NCAA matches are broadcast on the same channel one after the other. If one match starts late (which they do) or lasts longer than expected, so does the other one. If the first match goes into overtime, for example, the second sometimes doesn't tip off before the first one ends. There are various combinations. If you are not aware of US sports beginning with a delay than I am afraid you don't know that much.

But let's take a look at what he said:

I am familiar with the MLS, NBA, and NHL (I can't say anything for other leagues/sports), and they always begin with a delay. That can be as little as 10 minutes or even up to 30-40 mins.

So they clearly include NBA. And that means the delay of they. So Mr. Pmalek did mean "NBA always begin with a delay".

Yes, he did include NBA, but he wasn't exclusively talking about NBA, he's referring to --as per your own word, edited to be gramatically correct with the rest of my sentence-- them, namely the sports he's familiar with.

And we understood he meant it and we asked a follow-up question. But it is where he claims we twisted his words:

Therefore, could you kindly provide a reliable source of statistics supporting the claim that NBA games "always begin with a delay" and "can be as little as 10 minutes or even up to 30-40 mins"?

As explained above, his sentences did mean "NBA always begin with a delay", then, strangely enough, he accuses us of saying so. So forgive us that we have to refute such false accusation.

No, his sentence means a broader scope, not exclusively NBA, an educated-based-on-experience answer where most sport in US --that he's familiar with-- begins with delay, disregarding the length of the delay, a delay is a delay. Sports almost never played right on the time stated on their schedule.

And, returning us back to the point being discussed, what he said is basically fall along the line: you should add time of delay to your calculation.

This entire discussion became entirely useless though, because OP came with an extremely specific and official timeline published by NBA themselves --where the delay did happen for 10 minutes.

What I tried to say for these part of my post is: painting Pmalek as someone bad is really frown inducing, because he asked you multiple times to give another example, he gave you an un-sided request that perhaps there is another case that can show and prove your claim that OP did a late bet. He gave you what was due to you: a benefit of doubts. Which you never use.

And to be fair, it is you who attacked Pmalek --sneakily if I may add, by editing your first post on this thread where it can be easily missed by anyone who jumped straight to the last post they read-- by saying he distorted your words and the conversation became non constructive and unproductive. He asked you for another case to be dissected, how's this unproductive? How's this inconsistent with how you do business? Simply put, we almost can say he tried to say, "This case you gave is unproven to be true, please give another example that better show the point you tried to say about OP." Isn't that you do your business? Profesionally and always seeking for proven truth?

Make no mistake, someone else's behavior won't affect OP's case. We still look forward to resolving this issue with the OP, who’s been labelled as abuser by our sports provider initially. If anyone can find following information, please feel free to send to info@trustdice.win so we can forward it to our sports provider for them to reconsider:
- The actual time the game was delayed.
- The exact score and countdown at 3:54 a.m. (UTC) on December 1, when the OP placed his bet.
- The exact time the timer started running and the actual length of the game.


Sincerely,
TrustDice Team

OP had the details, all of the points you wanted to know and wrote above, for your perusal and you still ignored them. How's this trying to resolve the issue with OP?


Now, seeing how Coinbox1 reacted to Pmalek's post, I think it is necessary to add this note before I said what i'll say next: the sentence below is purely describing my personal opinion and judgement, and it should not be used to build your --and by "you" I mean anyone reading this thread-- opinion of OP, Trustdice, Trustdice's representative Coinbox1, or anyone else in this thread.

"OP, seeing Coinbox1's choice of action and how they reacted and behaved to the development of this case reminds me of what I initially thought when I read their post here, that they're trying to grasp at the straws. If their action is the reflection of how the platform operates and how they handled future issues, I'm afraid this is a detrimental behavior. I've been aware that Poika5 had raised a flag here against Coinbox1 on behalf of this thread, that I've been reluctant to support until further development and shows of good will or cooperation from them. But, seeing how they reacted, answered, and keeps refusing to give a strong evidence for their counter-accusation against you, I am inclined to believe they are not about to show any good will. Thus, I am supporting Poika5's flag. Their flag is a type-1, you are free to create another flag of type-2 or 3 if you want to and I'll probably support that too if they still refuse to show another case to support their counter-accusation against you and prove that you're cheating them."


Edit: fixing the flag link

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

I have supported the flag against the casino and its forum admin. When they created the flag, Poika5 mentioned Laki21000's thread (the one we are writing in) and that's why I can support it. I want to remain unbiased and neutral and since I am not familiar yet with Poika5's case and their claim against Trustdice, I couldn't have supported a flag created because of that incident. 

I would also suggest that Laki21000 create a Type 2 or 3 type of flag for his particular case because he is directly affected by the casino's actions.
When you have created the flag Laki21000, you can post the link here so that other users can support it if they want to. Put a link in your first post as well.
You can also request support for your flag or the one created by Poika5 by posting about it in LoyceV's thread Request Support (or Opposition) for Flags here!. Just make sure you follow the guidelines as explained by LoyceV.

[Laki21000]

<Snip>

I have supported the flag against the casino and its forum admin. When they created the flag, Poika5 mentioned Laki21000's thread (the one we are writing in) and that's why I can support it. I want to remain unbiased and neutral and since I am not familiar yet with Poika5's case and their claim against Trustdice, I couldn't have supported a flag created because of that incident. 

I would also suggest that Laki21000 create a Type 2 or 3 type of flag for his particular case because he is directly affected by the casino's actions.
When you have created the flag Laki21000, you can post the link here so that other users can support it if they want to. Put a link in your first post as well.
You can also request support for your flag or the one created by Poika5 by posting about it in LoyceV's thread Request Support (or Opposition) for Flags here!. Just make sure you follow the guidelines as explained by LoyceV.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=3066

Check my flag please. I don't know if I did everything right

[holydarkness]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=3066

Check my flag please. I don't know if I did everything right

You've correctly raised a type-2 flag, a flag for breach of implied or casual agreement, if that's what you meant to raise. You can edit your opening post and add the link to that post so readers would be able to find it easier --and support/oppose if they want to. As Pmalek said, you can also ask for other DT member's help to judge your case and then give their support to the flag on this thread.

I'll wait for couple of days, still giving Coinbox1 a benefit of doubts, to see if they'll give another case that shows you're indeed late-betting and their counter-accusation would then proven to be true. I am aware that they're online couple times after they edited their first reply on this post, they can even made a post on their thread, so they should've been aware about the updates on this thread or --at the very least, if they deliberately ignored this thread, which rather a big frown-- aware that their account is now tagged with negative trust. If they still refused to clear this issue despite their claim on their edited post and, by that, implicitly admitted that their counter-accusation is invalid and thus they're wrongfully freeze an honest user and denied your rights, they'll kinda forced it out of my hand and I won't have other option but to support the flag.

[Laki21000]

Trustdice casino wrote me an email, wait again, okay, let's wait. There are no specific dates, either.

https://imgur.com/a/pFGb9Bf

[Rating Place]

Trustdice - I don't go outside of the rating's guide that much but I am this time since I was sent a PM. You should pay both these players. Logically, if these players were past posting, they would be betting a lot more. Of course, this isn't proof and can be ignored but it is a red flag. If you have solid proof that they past posted, then cancel those bets and show timestamps. Even if you cancel those bets, confiscating money should not be done. I'll never make a downgrade on one or two complaints where there's some grey area, but this is a simple clear cut case. Prove the past bets. Return the other money immediately.  I lowered you to "D-" until further notice.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=717790.0


P.S. If further information comes out on these cases, please make me aware.

[Pmalek]

Check my flag please. I don't know if I did everything right

The flag is OK. It just needs support from at least 3 DT members before it becomes visible for everyone.

Trustdice casino wrote me an email, wait again, okay, let's wait. There are no specific dates, either.
<Snip>

They take a player's money, announce that he/she is a cheater, and then tell the player to wait while they investigate whether or not they cheated. Excellent customer relations. Great job Trustdice.

[examplens]

Check my flag please. I don't know if I did everything right

The flag is OK. It just needs support from at least 3 DT members before it becomes visible for everyone.

I supported the flag.
I didn't read the whole thread, TL;DR, but as far as I understand, OP's betting was not accepted because he placed bets late or even after the end of the match. did I understand the essence of the whole problem correctly?
isn't that the casino's fault? if according to their rules it is not allowed, why is it possible at all?
I would say that the fault lies only with the casino and its bad coding, they had to foresee it and prevent such potential abuse. they should admit a mistake in the system and if they don't want it to happen again, make corrections and disable such bets.

[holydarkness]

Check my flag please. I don't know if I did everything right

The flag is OK. It just needs support from at least 3 DT members before it becomes visible for everyone.

I supported the flag.
I didn't read the whole thread, TL;DR, but as far as I understand, OP's betting was not accepted because he placed bets late or even after the end of the match. did I understand the essence of the whole problem correctly?
isn't that the casino's fault? if according to their rules it is not allowed, why is it possible at all?
I would say that the fault lies only with the casino and its bad coding, they had to foresee it and prevent such potential abuse. they should admit a mistake in the system and if they don't want it to happen again, make corrections and disable such bets.

A tad bit wrong, in a worse sense for trustdice. By your description, they simply made "an error" in coding, and they could --should-- just admit the mistake and fix the problem, and everything is good as new.

Unfortunately, in these whole 3 fun pages of banter and lovely conversation, Coinbox1 accused OP of utilizing a bug and placed bet at the end of the game, where facts given by everybody else on this thread shows otherwise, that the bet was placed about the early minutes of quarter 4 of NBA game, still very far from "near-the-end". They still insist on it and when Pmalek suggested them to provide other case --because they said OP did this several times-- they went ballistic and attacked Pmalek.

Trustdice casino wrote me an email, wait again, okay, let's wait. There are no specific dates, either.

https://imgur.com/a/pFGb9Bf

This decision they made, although shows a good gesture, is rather unfortunate. They decided to simply be "a generous platform" and "re-consider" your case after every evidence proven them to be wrong, indirectly --and reluctantly-- said that they've wrongly accuse you, let alone to reach through a very more private way to mitigate the crisis they elevated themselves, most likely to hide from public exposure of their foul play for baseless judgement, IMO this is clearly not a good gesture.

I was really expecting them to provide a concrete evidence by another case that you've indeed wronged them and their accusation is true. We'll probably in a very different situation if they stand by their accusation of multiple late bet and could provide the supporting evidences. Instead, this happens. And by these actions of theirs, I stand by my opinion that their behavior is detrimental, both the marketing-guy-behind-this-post who act improfessionally and the solution center of the platform themselves who made this case more difficult than it needed to. Thanks to both of them, there's no guarantee that anyone playing on their platform won't face similar treatment in the future.

I supported the flag.

[Pmalek]

I didn't read the whole thread, TL;DR, but as far as I understand, OP's betting was not accepted because he placed bets late or even after the end of the match. did I understand the essence of the whole problem correctly?
isn't that the casino's fault? if according to their rules it is not allowed, why is it possible at all?

The bets were accepted. The player wagered and won. But when he wanted to withdraw, they asked him for KYC, froze his account, and confiscated his balance. After that they started claiming he was late betting without showing a single case to back up those claims.

They made a ridiculous claim that the player made a wager at odds that shouldn't have been possible for a long time. It's interesting that when you take a look at a live match from their sportsbook, everything works great. The odds are adjusted in time, and if there is a technical problem, the markets get closed when needed, etc. I am watching a live match from Bulgaria right now. There is less than 3 mins left on the clock in the 4th quarter, and there are many open markets still that you can bet on. But when OP placed a bet with 8-9 mins left on the clock, that's considered "late betting". 

[Rating Place]

If you want to see an actual tipoff time, it can be found on the gamebook at NBA.com. But the case above is a simple case of past posting. If Trustdice wants to accuse the player of past posting, they have to prove it.



Example of start times

[Rating Place]

Here's the largest loss that I remember on past posts.

Seven longtime Las Vegas bookmakers can’t recall a larger loss. But each oddsmaker has taken hits on past posts and said it’s a fairly common occurrence at books.

“It’s happened to all of us,” Westgate sportsbook director John Murray said. “I think every sportsbook probably since the beginning of time has dealt with this at some point.

“We’ve had past post situations where our employees put in the wrong time or put in the wrong number or they forgot to close something. It’s manual entry and humans are going to make mistakes.”

Sunday’s bets were allowed to be placed because incorrect start times were posted on some Korean and Chinese baseball games due to a manual entry error, according to an ESPN report.

Nearly all of the approximately 50 wagers were placed on self-serve kiosks at the Bellagio between 1:30 and 3 a.m. when the games in question started at 1 and 2 a.m.

Among the bets was a $250 10-leg parlay that paid $137,107.38.

Trustdice - why do you want to penalize players instead of just refund if past posted? A lot times books cause a past post because of delays accepting live wagers.

[yahoo62278]

I will add my support for the flag as well. From what I am reading in this thread, coinbox1 really is unaware of how live betting works. Most site disable bets on a game in the last 2 minutes, so really it is impossible for a person to late bet or whatever. Now if Trustdice has an error in their site, then it's on them to fix it instead of trying to accuse users of cheating without providing real proof.

Really sad to see it come to this.