The fight over electric car batteries

[chrisculanag]

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

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[tjtonmoy]

It might be strange to many people but I have never seen or touched an electric vehicle except on media devices. Sometimes I wonder how my continent would cope with electric vehicles due to the diverse economic and political challenges it is battling. My prediction is that petrol vehicles would still be available for more decades at least in developing nations.

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

[franky1]

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

I completely support electric bikes, especially that I had the pleasure to ride one that could easily allow me to go over 30km with partial support from the engine.
Pros of an EV bike:
Fine range, not many people go on bike trips that require more than 40km range in one go.
Great utility, allows you to go uphill for 15 min straight without going into cardiac arrest.
Cons:
Price, but they aren't that expensive.
Weight

With Electric cars IMHO there's much more cons.

The main problem in your calculation of 12 years is that the EV won't make it that long without a new battery. If after 8 years you have to add 5k EUR for a new battery the ROI gets much longer.

This is exactly what I'm trying to point at. The same problem the Renault Zoe users have. The battery lasts up to 8 years or 160k Km.
you're paying 30k EUR for a car that's going to depreciate about 80% in value over the next 10 years and most likely is going to get scrapped after that because nobody will pay 10k+ to get a new battery for a car that's worth maybe 5k without it...

the 8 years 160km is based on a rough estimate of a 500 recharges, each done every 5-6 days
but thats presenting that a car does 50miles a day to use up its 300mile charge to then need to recharge

yes expect a battery could pop after 8 years but realise.. thats the minimum based on data math of excessive use compared to average. in other words its a safe bet

much like products that last 3 years but quoted as having a 2 year warranty of expectant lifespan

dont base real life span based on the safe bet of warranty lengths
batteries can handle 1000 recharges+ but the safebet was ~500 recharges based on a ~50km a day utility

the 8 year WARRANTY is not the same as saying expected lifespan

[pixie85]

The discussion looks heated.

I wouldn't choose an electric car.

Some of you said that they're cheaper in refueling which makes you recoup some of the cost over time but I prefer to hold money in my pocket.
I'd rather spend 10 thousand dollars on a car than 20 with the promise that I'll get 10 back in the next few years.

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

You can't leave your car overnight at a charging station. I live in an apartment building with outside parking lot and can't charge my car from my outlet. I'd have to go to a charging spot every day and wait for it to finish before parking my car for the night.

[STT]

The wider point people might be missing in terms of utility to EV is that its very easily a multi purpose vehicle.   So if the market for electric in general is illiquid at any point, it could be useful for every house to have a battery which is something contained in the EV that is not true of any other product around a normal household.    
   EV could be used as arbitrage daily between peak pricing to electric free markets and the off peak pricing.  Wind power for example is either used or wasted, to store that energy is a premium activity.   So too the same can be said of hydro power, only a few types of power station can provide instant power on demand for peak or sudden spikes in demand.
   The modern alternative to centralized production of electricity by power stations might be a nation distributed in its capacity to supply power.  Modern housing can feed power from solar panels back into the grid, this is acknowledged whats missing is that EV also can provide power to grid and this is known and available tech however its not yet common.   A rising trend can justify and back the increasing usage of EV imo, if it represents any kind of improvement to efficiency or liquidity.

[adaseb]

There is a guy on YouTube called Rich rebuilds who buys salvaged Tesla’s and tries fixing them up. He is a pretty funny guy however he says that Tesla can sell you a refurbished battery for a model 3 for $22K. That doesn’t include installation.

Now how much is a Tesla, especially 2017-2018 around $35K at inflated car prices. So imagine buying one at $35k and then having the battery go bad and costing almost $25K to get it going again.

Most will just go to the salvage yard. Not worth fixing them when battery is dead. Unless you get the car for free.

[kro55]

It might be strange to many people but I have never seen or touched an electric vehicle except on media devices. Sometimes I wonder how my continent would cope with electric vehicles due to the diverse economic and political challenges it is battling. My prediction is that petrol vehicles would still be available for more decades at least in developing nations.

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

[Nhazwrath]

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.

To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.
Is it worth going electric? Not yet, not at these prices.

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)

fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

Your battery will never last 12 years with current tech.  8 years is pushing it.   10k replacement   wheres the value again?

[justdimin]

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

It is true that this will create a trouble, but even scarier thing is that if we do not care about it. Look at the plastics in our ocean, basically every fish you eat has a small amount of plastic in it, doesn't matter how microscopic it is there is some in them.

Because ocean is filled with plastic. Do we do something about it? This is hurting the world, and the world is heating up, there is a ton of pollution, are we doing something about it? No. So, it is not scary to think there is a trouble with battery waste, there is a scare about the fact that battery waste will not be cared about at all, and that is seriously scary and I do not know what will happen.

[kro55]

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

It is true that this will create a trouble, but even scarier thing is that if we do not care about it. Look at the plastics in our ocean, basically every fish you eat has a small amount of plastic in it, doesn't matter how microscopic it is there is some in them.

Because ocean is filled with plastic. Do we do something about it? This is hurting the world, and the world is heating up, there is a ton of pollution, are we doing something about it? No. So, it is not scary to think there is a trouble with battery waste, there is a scare about the fact that battery waste will not be cared about at all, and that is seriously scary and I do not know what will happen.

The electric vehicle industry is very interesting at present, but if the governments of the major powers are really concerned about global warming, I believe that electric cars will soon be limited and cannot replace petrol cars. The use of gasoline still produces less waste than current battery-powered vehicles, IMO. This reminds me of the government blaming bitcoin for global warming without hearing them complain about this .

[fadhilz123]

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

There are many countries now that have produced lithium, and I think the price issue will also vary greatly because the taxes in each country are not always the same. So it would be very natural if it could get special control from several parties so that the price can be very affordable for consumers who need it. Here are some lithium-producing countries that already have the best ratings according to investingnews.com sources

• Australia, Mine production: 55,000 MT
• Chile, Mine production: 26,000 MT
• China, Mine production: 14,000 MT
• Argentina, Mine production: 6,200 MT
• Brazil, Mine production: 1,500 MT
• Zimbabwe, Mine production: 1,200 MT
• Portugal, Mine production: 900 MT
• United States, Mine production: withheld

[YOSHIE]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

You are right, electric cars consume a lot of energy, I took the example of the 20th Summit, in 2022, all car facilities used to pick up or take state officials electric powered cars, 1000 more electric cars are in use, but only for a few days.

But there are interesting things that are being questioned by the public about the electric car, after the 20 Summit is over, if the car will be sold to the public.
Example:

The community also needs certainty about incentives such as taxes and increases in electricity power if they commit to switching from fuel-drinking vehicles to vehicles with rechargeable batteries. Because it cannot be denied, electric vehicles have been synonymous with "toys" for the rich.

As well as ease of spare parts and servicing. I myself have never seen a special electric vehicle repair shop. If this facility exists, motorists or car users can rest easy because they know where to go when their vehicle needs maintenance.

In this quote, it can be concluded that if the government imposes greater electricity bills on the public and there are no electric car parts, automatically with the people's economy which is currently screaming, I'm sure the electric car trade plan isn't channeled efficiently, what's more for people with a lower-class economy, it's clearly a nightmare for them.

[mindrust]

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

[darkangel11]

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

I feel you man. My friend is in love with the camry, but there's so many good looking cars out there right now that the competition is big.
There are some pretty nice electric car as well like KIA EV6GT which would probably be my choice if I had to go electric. Fortunately I don't.
As for ICE there's an interesting new very efficient engine made by Mazda called SkyactiveX.
Manufacturers also experiment with hydrogen cells and you can already buy like Toyota Mirai.
Don't forget about the new NA Corvette engine that isn't eco but makes 500hp and you can add a supercharger on top of it if that's not enough. I've seen some reviews and people love the car.

IMO ICE cars are not dead yet, at least as long as we have a choice in the matter.

[SirLancelot]

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

Huh? I think it was the opposite. People are trying to be more friendly now when it comes to the environment so they avoid anything which can harm to it like using oils in cars, this is why there are now electric cars like tesla who are slowly gaining a momentum. This was only expensive at the moment but I believe that other car manufacturers are going to join this trend and make a budget friendly versions of these cars.

It's reported that Elon sold some of his tesla shares but I think there are different reasons for that and not that this project is a failure and he wants to abandon it later on. Maybe it's just a strategy once again by Elon because you know, this guy is a master manipulator.

[tjtonmoy]

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

Price and availability is the main concern. Living in a 3rd world country, I have learned that already now. There are always shortage of power and the price you have to pay to get that is insane. You need to have enough power to provide for the whole country's need. We don't get that here.
I also don't have much knowledge on how much energy it costs to one time charge your EV, but considering the condition here, gas might be more cheap than electricity. And also we don't have road permission for electric vehicles. In the future, maybe. But for now we have to stick to the gas car, unfortunately.

[STT]

Elon is dumping his Tesla shares

Elon bought and promised others the good ownership of a company previously listed at over a trillion, thats alot of money for even the richest man which is why he must liquidate the shares.    He still owns alot of Tesla, more then most CEO I guess.
   In theory he can rebuy the shares as they just got alot cheaper, thats the ideal but sadly his twitter stake is not likely to release any spare capital any time soon I guess but in theory his sale of TSLA shares was entirely sensible; never own just one thing.

[kro55]

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

Price and availability is the main concern. Living in a 3rd world country, I have learned that already now. There are always shortage of power and the price you have to pay to get that is insane. You need to have enough power to provide for the whole country's need. We don't get that here.
I also don't have much knowledge on how much energy it costs to one time charge your EV, but considering the condition here, gas might be more cheap than electricity. And also we don't have road permission for electric vehicles. In the future, maybe. But for now we have to stick to the gas car, unfortunately.

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

[Moneyprism]

it seems that countries in the world are starting to be very protective of their lithium,, considering that if this is not done then private companies will use it to monopolize lithium resources and use it as they like and in the end the lithium source country gets nothing

[sana54210]

it seems that countries in the world are starting to be very protective of their lithium,, considering that if this is not done then private companies will use it to monopolize lithium resources and use it as they like and in the end the lithium source country gets nothing

That kind of situation may not last for long as new improved version of electric car batteries is in development but for next 10 years we may end up using lithium based batteries only which means corporates will try to milk the maximum in-between time periods. I read the new development on electric vehicle batteries may bring alternatives to lithium based batteries and with up to 100 years of life time.

When safer atom based electricity generation will be combined with advanced batteries, I guess the world economy will enter into a new dimension and will root for stable economy by lowering the production costs everywhere.