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Author Topic: NFTs in the Bitcoin blockchain - Ordinal Theory  (Read 9159 times)
Wind_FURY (OP)
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November 12, 2023, 11:42:12 AM
 #561

That's with the presumption that every node would have access to above-average internet connection speeds.
Plus for the question, how many nodes are required to be "appropriately" decentralized. I believe there's no right number, BUT I could tell you that the MORE full nodes = MORE security assurances.

2009:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-10786874
Quote
The data, from network giant Akamai reveals the average global net speed is only 1.7Mbps (megabits per second) although some countries have made strides towards faster services.

2021:
Quote
According to internet speed specialists Ookla the global average download speed on fixed broadband as of September 2021 was 113.25 Mbps on fixed broadband and 63.15 Mbps on mobile.

If 1MB was not a global problem then I kind of doubt 10 or 25 MB would be a problem now!
Weid that Satoshi didn't have the same attitude, otherwise he would have made blocks 50kb!  Wink


Although as plebs, we can't merely pull those numbers from a few news clippings, and truly claim that we have found the answer, no? The solution to scale the network and maintain decentralization, would definitley be more complicated than that.

I believe to help better understand ACTUAL SCALING and for the more technical people, this might help, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHIuuKCm53o

But to be honest, please ELI-5, I don't understand most of that.

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November 12, 2023, 12:11:23 PM
Last edit: November 12, 2023, 12:34:51 PM by vjudeu
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (4), vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1), ABCbits (1)
 #562

Quote
The limit wasn't 32MB in the begining...in version 0.1.0 of core is in open( no limit).
This is November 2008 version:
Quote
Code:
static const unsigned int MAX_SIZE = 0x02000000;
static const int64 COIN = 1000000;
static const int64 CENT = 10000;
static const int64 TRANSACTIONFEE = 1 * CENT; /// change this to a user options setting, optional fee can be zero
///static const unsigned int MINPROOFOFWORK = 40; /// need to decide the right difficulty to start with
static const unsigned int MINPROOFOFWORK = 20;  /// ridiculously easy for testing
As you can see, MAX_SIZE is equal to 0x02000000, which means 32 MiB.

This is "BitCoin v0.01 ALPHA", as you can read in "readme.txt". And it contains this code:
Quote
Code:
static const unsigned int MAX_SIZE = 0x02000000;
static const int64 COIN = 100000000;
static const int64 CENT = 1000000;
static const int COINBASE_MATURITY = 100;

static const CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 32);
See? Also MAX_SIZE is equal to 32 MiB.

This is the current master branch:
Quote
Code:
/** The maximum allowed size for a serialized block, in bytes (only for buffer size limits) */
static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SERIALIZED_SIZE = 4000000;
/** The maximum allowed weight for a block, see BIP 141 (network rule) */
static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_WEIGHT = 4000000;
/** The maximum allowed number of signature check operations in a block (network rule) */
static const int64_t MAX_BLOCK_SIGOPS_COST = 80000;
/** Coinbase transaction outputs can only be spent after this number of new blocks (network rule) */
static const int COINBASE_MATURITY = 100;

static const int WITNESS_SCALE_FACTOR = 4;
Of course, it exists also MAX_SIZE value in different places in the code, and it is equal to 32 MiB. Which means, you cannot send bigger message via Bitcoin protocol, even if you increase the size of the block, because that limit is also present in some other places, and you have to also change them, if you want for example 1 GB blocks.

Edit: I can give you a better link: this is the exact commit, where Satoshi added this code: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/a30b56ebe76ffff9f9cc8a6667186179413c6349#diff-506a3b93711ef8e9623d329cf0a81447492e05867d2f923c6fa9fcffeca94f35
Quote
Code:
static const unsigned int MAX_SIZE = 0x02000000;
static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIZE = 1000000;
static const int64 COIN = 100000000;
static const int64 CENT = 1000000;
static const int COINBASE_MATURITY = 100;

static const CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 32);
See? There was a limit, enforced by MAX_SIZE, set to 32 MiB, and Satoshi added another constant, called MAX_BLOCK_SIZE, which limited it further into 1 MB. Also note the difference between those two constants: one is 32 MiB, and another is 1 MB. One is hexadecimal, and another is decimal.

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November 12, 2023, 07:51:05 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #563

Partially, because Bitcoin's value proposition doesn't depend only from its market cap and security, but also on the "value of use" the network has for certain user groups. If we've a service which brings value in bubbles, like Ordinals, but harms the "value of use" of other user groups, like those who don't care about NFTs and only want to transact BTC, then the general impact on Bitcoin's value proposition can be negative.

It's impossible to guess the outcome of this unless enough time has passed, depending on how you look at it, you can easily be in favor of one thing against the other, the way I see it now is that the majority of on-chain transactions are not being used for P2P payments nor the average daily-life payment, also I see that blocks on average are nearly half empty/full, I also think that the majority of people treat BTC as a store of value simply "bad money drives out good".

I can also bet that this will never change, in reality, it will only get worse/better (depending on how you look it at), some years back people used to buy Pizza using their BTC. who is unwise enough now to spend BTC on Pizza? the more value BTC has the less people will spend it.

So it all looks like BTC could use another set of users without having a huge negative impact on the existing group.

Below is a weekly report of the current year's Max / Average blocksize, does it seem like the "average" users are fully utilizing the blocks?



Code:
Date / Week         Max            Average
02.01.2023 2.385818 1.078639058
09.01.2023 2.218972 1.215408896
16.01.2023 2.314076 1.242836436
23.01.2023 2.308702 1.081787341
30.01.2023 3.955272 1.532155448
06.02.2023 3.922801 2.22460364
13.02.2023 3.952315 2.171715432
20.02.2023 3.942952 1.992871463
27.02.2023 3.934367 1.966236953
06.03.2023 3.898503 2.03098848
13.03.2023 3.937095 2.047473786
20.03.2023 3.899083 2.217817512
27.03.2023 3.912969 1.895896211
03.04.2023 3.838533 1.914944445
10.04.2023 3.787417 1.789833782
17.04.2023 3.978938 1.729685294
24.04.2023 2.944742 1.62130792
01.05.2023 3.060343 1.638557167
08.05.2023 2.879682 1.697199985
15.05.2023 3.68587 1.724362221
22.05.2023 3.692033 1.738233043
29.05.2023 3.615734 1.690612679
05.06.2023 3.544835 1.738112999
12.06.2023 3.552997 1.751367282
19.06.2023 3.882649 1.721703219
26.06.2023 3.834804 1.707652426
03.07.2023 3.760753 1.740363174
10.07.2023 3.403137 1.673777459
17.07.2023 3.763782 1.668705377
24.07.2023 3.314762 1.672129874
31.07.2023 3.857157 1.657433457
07.08.2023 3.350484 1.632211423
14.08.2023 3.279122 1.679278465
21.08.2023 3.250997 1.657125809
28.08.2023 3.934083 1.659440563
04.09.2023 2.511372 1.623018103
11.09.2023 2.263405 1.660510314
18.09.2023 2.318758 1.671535611
25.09.2023 3.799031 1.726022796
02.10.2023 3.403939 1.685859414
09.10.2023 3.114767 1.657934399
16.10.2023 3.516149 1.625550023
23.10.2023 3.819042 1.68099429
30.10.2023 2.431199 1.660580813
06.11.2023 2.129122 1.653148697

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November 14, 2023, 01:30:48 AM
Last edit: November 14, 2023, 01:45:54 AM by GreenPanda
Merited by philipma1957 (4), vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1)
 #564

Anyone else heard of the Sophon bot that snipes brc-20 in the mempool and front-run them? Looks like this was the reason why we had an inscriptions break last month...
https://decrypt.co/205377/a-bitcoin-devs-bot-bucked-brc-20s-now-he-might-share-the-sophon-with-the-world

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November 14, 2023, 10:17:22 AM
Merited by ABCbits (1), vjudeu (1)
 #565

Quote
In short , if you think that 1 MB limit is sensible in our times , then i don't know what to say .
It depends if you add compression into your equations or not. Pure 1 MB, without any compression, is not enough. 4 MB witness we have today, without any compression, is also not enough, because you can see congested mempool as well, and that situation is far from perfect. However, if you can imagine 1 GB blocks, that could be compressed down to 1 MB, then would you agree on such thing? You didn't expect that kind of question from me, do you?
Let's be real, 1GB blocks can't be compressed down to 1 MB and that's the problem. Also, since the number of bitcoin users and number of bitcoin transactions increase, as well as the computer hardware is getting better and cheaper, there is absolutely no argument to say that increase in block size is either bad or unaffordable. It's a simply demand and supply process. When demand is high and supply remains the same, then prices increase. In our case, demand is getting very high and supply remains as low as it was when only hundreds of people were using Bitcoin.

But to be frank, in our case, the main problem is not block size (it's still a problem though) but Bitcoin Ordinals. If this problem continues to exist long-term, then something should really be done to give people a relief. If anyone thinks that high fees are okay and people will pay for it, then that person is very wrong. High Bitcoin fees will only make altcoins a better choice and make them more popular.

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November 14, 2023, 02:38:41 PM
Merited by vjudeu (1)
 #566

Of course, because in my definition I mentioned about the number of independent nodes. Which means, 10000 nodes won't help, if they are owned by a single entity.
Your definition is close to what I consider to be decentralized, but I feel like throwing my 2 cents in. A network of 10,000 independently running nodes is fully decentralized if each node has an equal Proof-of-Work vote (i.e., 1 CPU = 1 vote). Respectively, a network where 2 out of the 10,000 running nodes are the only Proof-of-Work voters, then it is-- if not close to centralized-- definitely not fully decentralized. So, there appears to be an extra parameter; the subset of that group which produces the votes.

For the sake of simplicity, I'm ignoring the centralization involved into minting money, but even that is another parameter, because owning bitcoins means owning a part of the network. If we compare a network wherein a person owns 90% of the total coins in circulation from the beginning versus a network wherein a person releases the cryptocurrency without exploiting the financial advantage, we can sense there is an orders of mangitude difference in centralization.

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November 14, 2023, 03:07:49 PM
Merited by vjudeu (1)
 #567

Quote
In short , if you think that 1 MB limit is sensible in our times , then i don't know what to say .
It depends if you add compression into your equations or not. Pure 1 MB, without any compression, is not enough. 4 MB witness we have today, without any compression, is also not enough, because you can see congested mempool as well, and that situation is far from perfect. However, if you can imagine 1 GB blocks, that could be compressed down to 1 MB, then would you agree on such thing? You didn't expect that kind of question from me, do you?
Let's be real, 1GB blocks can't be compressed down to 1 MB and that's the problem. Also, since the number of bitcoin users and number of bitcoin transactions increase, as well as the computer hardware is getting better and cheaper, there is absolutely no argument to say that increase in block size is either bad or unaffordable. It's a simply demand and supply process. When demand is high and supply remains the same, then prices increase. In our case, demand is getting very high and supply remains as low as it was when only hundreds of people were using Bitcoin.

But to be frank, in our case, the main problem is not block size (it's still a problem though) but Bitcoin Ordinals. If this problem continues to exist long-term, then something should really be done to give people a relief. If anyone thinks that high fees are okay and people will pay for it, then that person is very wrong. High Bitcoin fees will only make altcoins a better choice and make them more popular.


I would not be so quick to call ordinals the issue. 

Ordinals are simply what is being used to make the fees higher this time.

Until you make btc as easy to scale as scrypt there will be an incentive to jack the fees on the btc chain.

and LN is not the best answer.

read how fees were jacked in 2017

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2634505.0


and see the largest pool right now is foundry which does not allow you to join unless you are at 20ph.

I can see them prepping to jack fees without using ordinals.

they have a relationship with bitmain and with riot.

the combined size of the two main pools  foundry and ant pool is over 40%.

they can simple repeat what I describe in my thread.

making sure big players are on foundry and moving the high fees to them.

make sure smaller players are on ant pool and using that pool to flood the memspace.

No need to have any ordinal to do it.


Basically attacking ordinals is trying to prevent murder by restricting guns. people will use other weapons to do it.

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November 14, 2023, 04:41:15 PM
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (4), ABCbits (3), vapourminer (2), philipma1957 (2), apogio (2), JayJuanGee (1), DdmrDdmr (1), digaran (1)
 #568

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Let's be real, 1GB blocks can't be compressed down to 1 MB and that's the problem.
You cannot do that in a general case, for all kinds of transactions. But for specific cases? There is no problem to do that in practice. Because of course, compressing 1 GB of Ordinals could be hard, if you want to preserve that data, and put everything on-chain. But compressing 1 GB of regular transactions, based on public keys alone? This is definitely possible. Why?

1. Public keys can be combined. Schnorr signatures can show you, that you can have R=R1+R2. And in the general case, if you can express something as R-value, then you can use sum to combine it. And then, instead of having 100 different signatures, you can have a single signature, that will be equivalent to 100-of-100 multisig, on a given data.
2. Transactions in the middle could be batched, skipped, or otherwise summed up, without landing in a block. If you have Lightning Network, then you have one transaction to open a channel, one transaction to close it, and in-between, you can have 1 GB, or even 1 TB of transaction traffic, that will never be visible on-chain later, when the channel will be closed.
3. Transactions flying in mempools can be batched by using full-RBF. Which means, if you have Alice->Bob->Charlie->...->Zack transactions in mempools, and they all take 1 GB, then guess what: if you put Alice->Zack transaction in the final block, it could take 1 MB instead, as long as you properly pick the final transaction after batching, and protect users from double-spends. Which means, the whole state of the mempool could be confirmed in every block, even through commitments, long before it will be batched, and confirmed on-chain. That would protect transactions from double-spending, if nodes would handle that properly, and if miners would respect those rules.

Also, I think people should see "the effective UTXO size diff", instead of just seeing the size of transactions in mempools. Which means, people should not see "oh no, our mempool contains 1 GB of transactions, waiting for confirmation". They should see instead: "our mempool contains N inputs and M outputs to be confirmed". Which means, everything in-between could be batched, stripped, and in many cases, all you need is the list of all inputs, which are confirmed, and all outputs, which are created. If you have Alice->Bob->Charlie->...->Zack transactions, then you don't have to include Bob->Charlie transaction into a new block, if Alice->Zack transaction will be included. All that matters, is if the last user can get the proper amount of coins, and if no double-spending is going on in the middle. That's all that matters. Five years later, nobody cares if Bob->Charlie transaction was there or not.

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Also, since the number of bitcoin users and number of bitcoin transactions increase, as well as the computer hardware is getting better and cheaper, there is absolutely no argument to say that increase in block size is either bad or unaffordable.
Initial Blockchain Download takes more and more time. Today, fully synchronizing the chain could take one week. Before it took few days, and in the old times, you just needed few hours. And you have to download everything, even if you use pruning. Downloading everything once is still needed. And it can take a lot of time. And that is only getting worse.

Which means, it doesn't matter that you have to download 500 GB. Validation time is what matters the most. If you can download 1 GB in 10 seconds, it means 5,000 seconds for downloading 500 GB. But downloading is not a problem. Validation is. One week validation for 500 GB means around 1 MB data being validated every second. And this is too slow. It doesn't matter that after few hours, you will have the full chain, if you will spend many days validating it. And if you increase it into too huge values, then guess what: if your validation time is around 1 MB per second, it means you can validate 600 MB per 10 minutes. Which means, if you will have 1 GB every 10 minutes, you will never validate it, even if everything will be fully downloaded on your local disk.

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If anyone thinks that high fees are okay and people will pay for it, then that person is very wrong. High Bitcoin fees will only make altcoins a better choice and make them more popular.
Two things:
1. On-chain fees will eventually be high, because when block reward will be zero, then fees will be the only reward.
2. It could still be cheap for users, if their low-fee transactions will be batched into high-fee transactions, and then stored on-chain. Which means, if 500 satoshi as a fee is too expensive, then imagine 500 users paying one satoshi each, and having their transactions batched into a single on-chain transaction.

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A network of 10,000 independently running nodes is fully decentralized if each node has an equal Proof-of-Work vote (i.e., 1 CPU = 1 vote).
This is never the case, because users have different hardware. And also, their wealth is never equal, there are rich and poor users. Which means, if you try to reach a situation, where every user would have the same CPU power, it is the same as trying to reach a situation, where each user would own the same amount of satoshis. This will simply never happen.

And even if you will have "1 CPU = 1 vote", then still, Alice could have 5 CPUs, and Bob could own 3 CPUs. And then, their voting power will never be equal.

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So, there appears to be an extra parameter; the subset of that group which produces the votes.
If that would be the case, then BCH could be "the true Bitcoin" for a short moment, when they had higher hashrate. But still, having enough hashrate is not everything, because you have to also produce blocks in the proper format, accepted by other full nodes.

But surprisingly, Merged Mining could solve that issue, in case of some attack. If we would always trace the strongest chain of SHA-256 headers, and distribute coinbase rewards accordingly, then in case of some attack, if some network has 10% of the global SHA-256 hashrate, then those miners should receive only 10% of the coinbase amount, and the rest should be burned or timelocked into the future. Then, the attackers would not receive more coins on the real network, supported by users, but the attack would be noticed, and the coinbase amount would react to that properly.

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If we compare a network wherein a person owns 90% of the total coins in circulation from the beginning versus a network wherein a person releases the cryptocurrency without exploiting the financial advantage, we can sense there is an orders of mangitude difference in centralization.
See? Hashrate is not everything. Even if you have 51%, then still, if you have Proof of Work, instead of Proof of Stake, you still cannot get those coins, unless you trigger a huge chain reorganization. And in that case:
1. It will be noticed by every full node. Some pruned nodes will even require re-downloading the chain, and that would bring a lot of attention, and alert a lot of people.
2. It will require a huge amount of Proof of Work, that could be put instead into producing new coins on top of the chain.

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I would not be so quick to call ordinals the issue.
They are, because you cannot compress them that easily. If you have public-key-based transactions, they could be joined. If you have data-based transactions, then you need to reveal that data, and then it is harder to compress, because then you cannot "just add keys, and produce a Schnorr signature out of that".

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and LN is not the best answer
Of course, sidechains could be potentially better, if they would be decentralized, and if they would have as strong peg, similar to LN. But still, some sidechain proposals were rejected, which means, a new ones should be made, maybe even no-fork based, if soft-fork ones will not be accepted.

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Basically attacking ordinals is trying to prevent murder by restricting guns. people will use other weapons to do it.
Of course. Those "other weapons" could mean "UTXO flood", and for that reason, you don't have any code censoring Ordinals in the official Bitcoin Core release.

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BlackHatCoiner
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November 14, 2023, 05:23:13 PM
 #569

This is never the case, because users have different hardware.
There is an endless list of reasons why this is never the case, but theoretically if everyone owned the same part of the network in both terms of computational and financial power, then that'd be ideal decentralization.

If that would be the case, then BCH could be "the true Bitcoin" for a short moment, when they had higher hashrate.
Never used the term "true", and also, never claimed that hash rate per se is directly proportional to decentralization. It's the share of the hash rate that matters. The hash rate itself has to do with the security, not the decentralization.  

Even if you have 51%, then still, if you have Proof of Work, instead of Proof of Stake, you still cannot get those coins
To clarify my position: if you have 51% of the hash rate and are malicious, then these coins are worthless. There is nothing else to be said. You don't need to reorg and access the coins. Simply reversing confirmed transaction  proves the concept failure.

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HmmMAA
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November 14, 2023, 06:18:53 PM
 #570

Initial Blockchain Download takes more and more time. Today, fully synchronizing the chain could take one week. Before it took few days, and in the old times, you just needed few hours. And you have to download everything, even if you use pruning. Downloading everything once is still needed. And it can take a lot of time. And that is only getting worse.

Which means, it doesn't matter that you have to download 500 GB. Validation time is what matters the most. If you can download 1 GB in 10 seconds, it means 5,000 seconds for downloading 500 GB. But downloading is not a problem. Validation is. One week validation for 500 GB means around 1 MB data being validated every second. And this is too slow. It doesn't matter that after few hours, you will have the full chain, if you will spend many days validating it. And if you increase it into too huge values, then guess what: if your validation time is around 1 MB per second, it means you can validate 600 MB per 10 minutes. Which means, if you will have 1 GB every 10 minutes, you will never validate it, even if everything will be fully downloaded on your local disk.

Bootstraping would significantly reduce that time from days/weeks to hours . 


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November 15, 2023, 11:24:55 AM
Merited by vjudeu (1)
 #571

Quote
Let's be real, 1GB blocks can't be compressed down to 1 MB and that's the problem.
You cannot do that in a general case, for all kinds of transactions. But for specific cases? There is no problem to do that in practice. Because of course, compressing 1 GB of Ordinals could be hard, if you want to preserve that data, and put everything on-chain. But compressing 1 GB of regular transactions, based on public keys alone? This is definitely possible. Why?

1. Public keys can be combined. Schnorr signatures can show you, that you can have R=R1+R2. And in the general case, if you can express something as R-value, then you can use sum to combine it. And then, instead of having 100 different signatures, you can have a single signature, that will be equivalent to 100-of-100 multisig, on a given data.
2. Transactions in the middle could be batched, skipped, or otherwise summed up, without landing in a block. If you have Lightning Network, then you have one transaction to open a channel, one transaction to close it, and in-between, you can have 1 GB, or even 1 TB of transaction traffic, that will never be visible on-chain later, when the channel will be closed.
3. Transactions flying in mempools can be batched by using full-RBF. Which means, if you have Alice->Bob->Charlie->...->Zack transactions in mempools, and they all take 1 GB, then guess what: if you put Alice->Zack transaction in the final block, it could take 1 MB instead, as long as you properly pick the final transaction after batching, and protect users from double-spends. Which means, the whole state of the mempool could be confirmed in every block, even through commitments, long before it will be batched, and confirmed on-chain. That would protect transactions from double-spending, if nodes would handle that properly, and if miners would respect those rules.

But it's only on theory. In practice, there needs network upgrade with let such process happen non-interactively. And i doubt it can merge transaction with custom spending condition.

--snip--
Bootstraping would significantly reduce that time from days/weeks to hours . 

Do you mean using bootstrap.dat file? At least for Bitcoin Core software, it's slower than letting Bitcoin Core just sync normally.

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November 15, 2023, 03:39:46 PM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #572

Quote
In practice, there needs network upgrade with let such process happen non-interactively.
Yes, it requires soft-fork or no-fork upgrades. Some things can be deployed as a no-fork, for example if you have one-input-one-output transaction, then it should be signed with SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY. And then, there should exist some SIGHASH_PREVOUT_SOMETHING, to allow chaining more than one transaction, without affecting txid. So yes, in the current state, it is half-baked, but I hope we will get there in the future. And I think if it will be done properly, then people will upgrade soon, because it will make their transactions cheaper.

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And i doubt it can merge transaction with custom spending condition.
This is a feature, not a bug. You want to compress transactions based on public keys and signatures, while leaving for example Ordinals uncompressed. In this way, regular users could have cheap transactions, while Ordinals users will still pay a lot of satoshis for pushing their data on-chain. Unless they will compress them in some way, but I doubt it. Compressing regular public keys in some aggregated signature is much easier than compressing some arbitrary data pushes.

In general, Ordinals are incompatible with many protocols, for example CoinJoin or cut-through. But it is their problem, not mine. If users want to use protocols, that were not tested enough, it is their choice, and they should pay for their spam, while regular users should have a way to make their transactions cheaper.

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November 16, 2023, 10:35:26 AM
Merited by vjudeu (1)
 #573

Quote
And i doubt it can merge transaction with custom spending condition.
This is a feature, not a bug. You want to compress transactions based on public keys and signatures, while leaving for example Ordinals uncompressed. In this way, regular users could have cheap transactions, while Ordinals users will still pay a lot of satoshis for pushing their data on-chain. Unless they will compress them in some way, but I doubt it. Compressing regular public keys in some aggregated signature is much easier than compressing some arbitrary data pushes.

In general, Ordinals are incompatible with many protocols, for example CoinJoin or cut-through. But it is their problem, not mine. If users want to use protocols, that were not tested enough, it is their choice, and they should pay for their spam, while regular users should have a way to make their transactions cheaper.

Arbitrary data can't be compressed/merged that way, so i know it can't be helped. Although i also refer to other usage such as HTLC used by LN and P2SH/P2WSH which reveal full script/all possible spend condition.

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November 16, 2023, 03:29:42 PM
 #574

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HTLC used by LN
They should switch from HTLC to PTLC.

Quote
and P2SH/P2WSH which reveal full script/all possible spend condition
They should switch to TapScript, and reveal only one branch, instead of all conditions. Also, in this case, if everyone agrees, then people can spend by key in most cases, and spend by TapScript only when there is some disagreement. But in general, the disagreement is expensive, and it is also a feature, not a bug, to encourage people to play by the rules, or pay for breaking them.

Edit: Guess what: Ordinals always use spend by TapScript. Imagine, how better they could be, if users would always spend their coins by key, and reveal their Ordinals in a separate network. Imagine, how cheaper could it be. Imagine, how it would be possible to upload 1 GB, or even 1 TB, as a single Ordinal, without pushing it on-chain. But no, they spend by TapScript, so they use the most expensive way for no reason.

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November 18, 2023, 04:14:25 AM
Merited by vjudeu (1)
 #575

I have been wondering lately, generally I do a lot of wondering.
Why don't you ordinal spammers create your own blockchain and enjoy trillions of different types of data being added to your blockchain?
I don't think parasites could understand or even be capable of finding a food source of their own, that's why they attach themselves to a host, and if the host doesn't fight back, they will destroy the host and move to the next one.

Lets have it for core developers, for their outstanding protection of the host. 👏👏👏  (sarcasm).

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November 18, 2023, 07:38:19 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #576

Quote
Why don't you ordinal spammers create your own blockchain and enjoy trillions of different types of data being added to your blockchain?
Because then, nobody would care. The goal of those spammers, is not to push Bitcoin development forward. The only thing they want is just P2P cloud storage.

If you create your own network, then you have to run your own full nodes. But if you misuse existing Bitcoin network, then you are a free rider, who can reuse existing resources, to handle your traffic, and to process your cloud storage features, instead of processing regular payments.

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Lets have it for core developers, for their outstanding protection of the host.
Well, there was quite long discussion between developers. On mailing lists, on GitHub, and in some other places. The conclusion was quite simple: they let Ordinals exist, because engaging in a regular war between P2P payment network, and P2P cloud storage, would only bring us some UTXO flood, and other, even worse things, which are not yet disclosed.

I think developers will focus on standard payments first, and if they succeed, then Ordinals will die naturally. Because imagine that OP_CAT could allow a lot of things, including decentralized sidechains, and in general, it would be possible to sign any message with just OP_CHECKSIG. Which means, it could be possible to make commitments, and batch payments, while leaving on-chain Ordinals unbatched, and forcing them to switch into spend-by-key from spend-by-TapScript. I hope they will do that at some point in the future, if they will be forced to process their commitments off-chain, when pushing them on-chain will be too expensive for them to continue that practice.

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November 18, 2023, 08:36:54 AM
 #577

I would not be so quick to call ordinals the issue. 

Ordinals are simply what is being used to make the fees higher this time.

Until you make btc as easy to scale as scrypt there will be an incentive to jack the fees on the btc chain.

and LN is not the best answer.

read how fees were jacked in 2017

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2634505.0


and see the largest pool right now is foundry which does not allow you to join unless you are at 20ph.

I can see them prepping to jack fees without using ordinals.

they have a relationship with bitmain and with riot.

the combined size of the two main pools  foundry and ant pool is over 40%.

they can simple repeat what I describe in my thread.

making sure big players are on foundry and moving the high fees to them.

make sure smaller players are on ant pool and using that pool to flood the memspace.

No need to have any ordinal to do it.


Basically attacking ordinals is trying to prevent murder by restricting guns. people will use other weapons to do it.
What's the best solution in this case? What do you think? If I remember it well, you have never answered a question of mine: Why is not increasing block size solution to bitcoin transaction fee problems? I simply can't understand what's wrong with this. It's simple math, block size limits number of transactions included in each block and on average, 1 block is mined every 10 minutes. So, when we create more transactions, fee is going up because there is a high demand but not enough supply. If we increase the block size up to 4MB for example, it will be a good deal. It's not 2009 anymore, as technology progresses, I think minimum requirements should progress too.

By the way, why do people join pools that don't share tx fees with its customers? Why should I join Antpool if another pool offers me to share collected transaction fees with me? Why do people still join top mining pools? If these pools can flood mempool, then there is no simple solution and it's very bad for Bitcoin's future, this will make other altcoins more attractive.
Let's imagine there is a guy who wants to pay with bitcoins right now. Fees are stupidly high, so what will this person do? He/She will start looking for altcoins with low transaction fees or just will stick with fiat, you know. Bitcoin shouldn't kill itself! Maybe it looks different from your standpoint but that's what I think majority will do if we keep in mind the human psychology.

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November 18, 2023, 11:07:17 AM
 #578

Because the host (BTC blockchain) offers immutability, that's why.

Good luck finding another host like that...
Alright, of course you can't find such a fat host to milk it for so long, that's the whole point of being a parasite. Now that we are talking about immutability, tell me can we see the addresses owning ordinals on blockchain explorers, worldwide? I mean how can I show off my special sats to my friends if they wanted to verify my claim?

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November 18, 2023, 11:20:11 AM
 #579

Because the host (BTC blockchain) offers immutability, that's why.

Good luck finding another host like that...
Alright, of course you can't find such a fat host to milk it for so long, that's the whole point of being a parasite. Now that we are talking about immutability, tell me can we see the addresses owning ordinals on blockchain explorers, worldwide? I mean how can I show off my special sats to my friends if they wanted to verify my claim?
Nobody can kill BTC. It's just too big and decentralized. I wouldn't worry that much...

Sure, it's inconvenient to have high TX fees, but I consider ORDI a temporary fad. It will last a few weeks/months at most.

ps: I don't give a shit about Ordinal NFTs, just like I don't give a shit about Mona Lisa (physical NFT). I don't care about "art".

Other people do care though and they're willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money. To each their own.
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November 18, 2023, 11:33:18 AM
Merited by vjudeu (1)
 #580

Did you forget about my other question? How can my friends verify my show off claims of having special sats? Can they see my address on block explorers with ordinals attached to it?

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