On Ordinals: Where do you stand?

[Bitcoiner317]

Thanks for the summary. Well, this is disappointing to say the least.
I guess it’s unavoidable for some people to want to take control when a decentralized system of that scale happens to be within reach. Guess we’ll have to watch them closely, haha

[larry_vw_1955]

I guess it’s unavoidable for some people to want to take control when a decentralized system of that scale happens to be within reach. Guess we’ll have to watch them closely, haha

and do what? they're already loading up the blockchain with "nfts". just watching them isn't going to do anything.   apparently some nft sold for 9.4 btc recently on the bitcoin blockchain. just wait until some nft marketplace website starts supporting bitcoin "nfts". if it gets mainstream then bitcoin might have a problem.

[nutildah]

Its worth pointing out that Ordinals by themselves are harmless: it is just a method of de-fungifying individual satoshis so that each one in essence can be seen as an NFT. The idea was actually proposed over 10 years go but nobody ever had much use for it until recently.

Its the inscriptions being attached to the ordinals that is the controversial part.

just wait until some nft marketplace website starts supporting bitcoin "nfts". if it gets mainstream then bitcoin might have a problem.

It already has by way of Emblem Vault which is a method for locking up the contents of a Bitcoin address and bridging it over to Ethereum as a ERC721 token. This means that Ordinal NFTs can be traded on major NFT marketplaces like OpenSea. It works very well, except it is easy to claim your vault holds something it actually doesn't, and thus a lot of scams have happened using that tactic.

Sales of Bitcoin Punks (Ethereum Punks but with an orange background as inscribed ordinals) on OpenSea are through the roof, about 500 ETH in volume in the last 24 hours.



You may not like it but this is what adoption looks like:



Guy is syncing up a full node for the first time so he can do inscriptions.

[franky1]

Its worth pointing out that Ordinals by themselves are harmless: it is just a method of de-fungifying individual satoshis so that each one in essence can be seen as an NFT.

ordinals dont do that

ordinals is just dead data put into a witness of a tx

when someone spends value (sats) that sat is destroyed. and a new utxo with sat is created
learn how transaction templates take in UTXO references to spend to new outputs


a UTXO used as a child tx input does not contain the witness of the parents UTXO input
it contains the UTXO of the parents output
and that parents output and the childs UTXO input does not have the same witness
...
the only way to move an ordinal is to when spending value. copy/paste the deadweight data from one witness. and put it into a new witness in the next transaction

meaning instead of there being just 1 copy of a chimp and hen people just trading sats.
people need to copy and paste dead weight per TX meaning multiplying the dead weight per transaction..

a normal full node wont automatically copy this deadweight by just spending sats. it requires manually editing raw TX to add the dead weight per attempt, to associate it with the next tx

[nutildah]

Its worth pointing out that Ordinals by themselves are harmless: it is just a method of de-fungifying individual satoshis so that each one in essence can be seen as an NFT.

ordinals dont do that

It does. Read the description from its creator.

I just necroposted to an old thread in which Johnson Lau came up with a numbering system for satoshis, which I independently also came up with a decade later. I think it's worth giving its own thread, so I'll copy what I posted here:

So, funny story, in the beginning of 2022, I came up with the exact same scheme discussed in this thread. After I finished the scheme, I realized that it was basically serial numbers for satoshis, typed "satoshi serial numbers" into Google, and found this post. It feels natural extension to bitcoin, so it makes sense that multiple people have come up with it over the years.

I called it "ordinal theory" or "ordinals", because it uses order in multiple places:

• The order of satoshis in the supply of satoshis, for numbering
• The order of inputs and outputs of a transaction, for inheritance
• The order of transactions in a block, for inheritance of fees

I've spent the last year implementing it, so just 10 years after the OP, you can finally try it out!

The binary, written in Rust, is called ord, and the code is on GitHub at https://github.com/casey/ord.

I has a bunch of functionality:
...

• An index that connects to a Bitcoin Core node instance and tracks the location of all sats.
  

...

• A rarity system: common = not the sat of the block, uncommon = first sat of the block, rare = first sat after a difficulty adjustment, epic = first sat after a halving, legendary = first sat after a conjunction, which is the difficulty adjustment and the halving happening on the same block, which happens every 6 halvings, and mythic = first sat of genesis block.
  

[franky1]

forget some guys promotional puff piece
instead look at how transaction templates of raw data are done

how a ordinal data is not saved to a UTXO

[Wind_FURY]

i wonder when the first video will appear. that will be a truly decentralized version of youtube for sure.   but no monetization just the user paying to upload. but it can't be deleted. so there's that.

It's not going to be a decentralized version of YouTube, there would be no use for inefficiency by using the blockchain unless the information inscripted is something that requires censorship-resistance. Why put it in the blockchain? Just because?

But while we talk about that, debating about if/for/else, someone inscribed an audio file of a fart in the blockchain, https://ordinals.com/inscription/5e92195849607b400d77f01cb1146563ce523fed47f66a044e7a470016e05e59i0

There's a fart in the blockchain.

--Snip--

 

There's franky-101 again, always putting words in someone's mouth, making everyone believe it's true, therefore gaslighting them. OR franky-101 forgot to drink his medication to read sarcasm again.

Its worth pointing out that Ordinals by themselves are harmless: it is just a method of de-fungifying individual satoshis so that each one in essence can be seen as an NFT. The idea was actually proposed over 10 years go but nobody ever had much use for it until recently.

By themselves they are harmless, BUT to be taken advantage by a bad actor, it could open another attack vector that could used for nefarious purposes. Perhaps to constantly make the network congested through dick pic transactions? There's probably high demand for censorhip-resistant dick pics.

[nutildah]

how a ordinal data is not saved to a UTXO

Again, wrong. The protocol used to track inscribed ordinals follows transfer of the ordinal through UTXOs.

For example:

https://ordinals.com/inscription/78d6a47167a10429450d1e36e091be721c40eed14c7250c8faa6e66713f6966fi0

The address to which the Ordinal NFT was minted is:

bc1p0qc0qjselqjj2mue82nl4c89z8ll8nvn7wn6g4uczfk0qsgf5r3sj3dy3m

That address sent it to this address:

15swCYzNK2FrE9MWN1zHTT8Fhwn5nwZV75

You can see the tx used the minting transaction ID as its sole input:



This is all the information that is required to track Ordinal NFT ownership. So long as inputs are not mixed or spent in other types of transactions, the history of ownership is quite clear and it is all based on UTXOs.

By themselves they are harmless, BUT to be taken advantage by a bad actor, it could open another attack vector that could used for nefarious purposes. Perhaps to constantly make the network congested through dick pic transactions? There's probably high demand for censorhip-resistant dick pics.

It has always been a matter of whoever is willing to pay the fee is entitled to the blockspace.

[Artemis3]

Every month i have been doing small transactions at 1 sat/b to pay for monthly utility bills, food, etc. The usual "waiting line" (memblock size) to wait was usually around 6mb which was like a couple of hours of wait at most. Today I'm trying a transaction, guess what? 61mb waiting line...

Those parasites are earning money selling NFTs or whatever their spam business is, at the expense of everybody else's livelihood. Yes i take it very personal what Ordinals and their accomplices are doing.

[buwaytress]

You may not like it but this is what adoption looks like:

Something I remind myself every day. What we think adoption looks like, what mainstream media thinks it looks like, and what it actually looks like? We're probably the ones (or speaking for myself anyway) who will be disappointed.

Because either Bitcoin is used for all expected purposes, but majority of its users don't even interact with the network directly...

...or we get people actually interacting with the network, but in non-expected ways.

For me, personally, I never saw the threat of ordinals. I even probably thumbed it up on first encounter on that post in Projects (shoot me, but that could just be me being a basic person). I still don't even really get the threat now, or, at least, don't see it as a bigger threat then when people were tolling the bells for Bitcoin spreading "immutable" porn online.

[twrursgz]

I think this is an existential threat for bitcoin, if not an outright catastrophe. NFT will kill bitcoin just like the GPU-based mining of etherium and other shitcoins has already killed high-resolution video gaming.

One of the basic limitations of bitcoin (as well as any decentralized blockchain) is the necessity of large storage space at a lot of different computers, forever (or as long as the blockchain exists). On the other hand, "modern art" is a de-facto standard tool of tax evasion nowadays. Leaving alone the discussion about goodness or badness of this practice itself, I just want to say that as a result, people are willing to pay much more money to store NFTs on the blockchain than to perform a typical money transfer. As a result, the blockchain will be flooded with NFTs, making regular transactions impractical due to the amount of fees required to compete the NFT fees. The next question is, whether the miners are going to support the blockchain after that: numerically, their fees will be much higher, but it will be quite hard to do anything with these gained fees.

You can already see how rapidly the mempool is getting flooded now, and how the BTC/USD rate has already started to drop.

[franky1]

no nutilda

what appears in a "input"(source of funding)(utxo) of a tx looks different to what is  in an output(destination)
the formatting is different..
input is a txid
output is a public key
(^dumbed down least complicated version of explanation^)

when a parent tx has a
in: [txid](position index)
out: amount, public address, script

once confirmed
to spend amount of public address of parents out.
you are not using any of whats wrote word for word from parent output
your instead referencing parents txid selecting the output index and you type the destination into core the amount of how much you want to spend to the next address.

...
and where the witness data of a tx.. is separate in the parent, does not cross over to the child in wallets like core or other native bitcoin wallets

it cant just be passed to a child tx by just spending the output

you cant just use core as is to change ownership of an ordinal because where the ordinal (meme) sits in the parent tx does not transfer into a child tx.

you would have to use another program to copy and paste and re-associate it to a child tx .. thus is not naturally/natively  changing ownership
it require a user manually copy and paste data into his tx from some other tx to associate it with a new owner.

and no the json code you grabbed from blockchain.info is not RAW TX data

please do try to learn this stuff if you really have interest to learn about it

[goldkingcoiner]

I personally do not see what all the hubbub is about. But then again, I am not a fan of NFTs as they have absolutely no meaning to me. Just as I see trading cards as expensive strips of paper.

But I do understand that there is a demand for NFTs and that some people go totally crazy over the idea of Bitcoin NFTs. Especially if they are dedicated Bitcoiners in the first place.

So I stand on neutral ground. Its not really of interest to me but I have nothing against it.

[franky1]

an ordinal is not a NFT in the sense of a token that can be transfered naturally natively in its network.

ordinals are just dead data sat inside a transaction

..
an NFT is locked to its identity and that identity moves.

an ordinal just sits in witness data. and does not transfer with the UTXO in the next transaction

[sad-error]

you cant just use core as is to change ownership of an ordinal because where the ordinal (meme) sits in the parent tx does not transfer into a child tx.

you would have to use another program to copy and paste and re-associate it to a child tx .. thus is not naturally/natively  changing ownership
it require a user manually copy and paste data into his tx from some other tx to associate it with a new owner.

from what I understand, ownership is tracked by tracking satoshis - e.g. when a satoshi is inscribed with data and sent to another address, there's a 1:1 connection between that specific satoshi in the input and an output of sait transaction - so you can track backwards from a certain satoshi to all its inscriptions.

What I think nutildah is trying to say is if there's only one input, the inscription is transfered for *all* of those satoshis to (satoshis in) the output(s) - in this specific case you don't need any extra software to tell you which satoshis from the inputs map to which satoshis in the outputs.

Maybe I have it completely backwards, but that's how I understand it from the (very limited) documentation and the only way it makes any sense (to me).

[franky1]

a satoshi in a output of parent tx is not found in a utxo of child, as a utxo of child is not an address+value,.... its a txid+index

ordinals are not saved in the utxo set!
an ordinal is in the witness area of child tx

[sad-error]

an ordinal is in the witness area

an inscription is in the witness data. The ordinal (theory) is just a protocol for tracking satoshis across transactions.

[franky1]

an ordinal is in the witness area

an inscription is in the witness data, not an ordinal. The ordinal (theory) is just a protocol for tracking satoshis across transactions.

https://docs.ordinals.com/inscriptions.html

(facepalm x5)

stop using silly website promotion wording

this image/meme(ordinal) is not transfered from prev tx output to next tx input(utxo) via Sats .. becasue the input of new tx does not include sats

if you were to spend a inscription or ordinal.. from a tx that included it...

well using core to make a new tx. the blockchain wont show the ordinal move or get copied

it requires a separate bit of software to manually copy/paste dead data to make it appear that they are still associated.

stop readjng some websites puff piece advertising of claims. and look are real raw data of bytes, hex.

[sad-error]

ok. 

[larry_vw_1955]

So I stand on neutral ground. Its not really of interest to me but I have nothing against it.

so you don't mind if transaction fees go up.  you're still neutral about that? or you're saying that the benefits of having nfts stored on the blockchain outweigh any inconvenience caused to end users such as higher transaction fees and longer confirmation times. it's hard to believe that someone could be completely neutral on the entire issue unless they don't even use bitcoin at all.

It already has by way of Emblem Vault which is a method for locking up the contents of a Bitcoin address and bridging it over to Ethereum as a ERC721 token. This means that Ordinal NFTs can be traded on major NFT marketplaces like OpenSea. It works very well, except it is easy to claim your vault holds something it actually doesn't, and thus a lot of scams have happened using that tactic.

Sales of Bitcoin Punks (Ethereum Punks but with an orange background as inscribed ordinals) on OpenSea are through the roof, about 500 ETH in volume in the last 24 hours.

yeah i bet the original cryptopunks owners are thrilled that they basically are selling another copy of their nfts for way cheaper only difference is an orange background. they can't even get $119 for this one. highest offer is 23 bucks.  
https://opensea.io/assets/ethereum/0x82c7a8f707110f5fbb16184a5933e9f78a34c6ab/5189380251671771

opensea is kind of playing a gatekeeper role here though. what's stopping someone from uploading the entire bored apes nft collection to the bitcoin blockchain and selling them all by making their own website? probably nothing! anyone can upload any image so in that sense it seems like this permanent storage on-chain devalues nfts on ethereum and other chains that store the image "off chain".

the only way to move an ordinal is to when spending value. copy/paste the deadweight data from one witness. and put it into a new witness in the next transaction

franky if that's true then it's even worse than we thought.   you would think the guy that designed this thing would have tried to prevent duplicating the image every time someone sold/transferred it. but i guess not?