On Ordinals: Where do you stand?

[franky1]

all you care about is ways to make bitcoin expensive and impractical to use as a p2p network so you can scam, scheme, and and syphon value away from people for your own buddy groups gain.

I've noticed this excuse lately from big blockers. Is this really all you have? In my local board, someone argued that the Bitcoin developers don't want scaling, because they're cooperating with politicians, so they can slow down adoption, with second-layer solutions being an obstacle to it. He even argued that due to Mastercard funding the development, it is behind this conspiracy. You sound like him now.

In which galaxy do we want Bitcoin to be more expensive and unusable as a peer-to-peer network? Grow up for once and use arguments adults use.

by limiting onchain transaction growth. when the total fee's become more important to mining pools it then causes people to pay more

with transactions count growth onchain there are more transactors. meaning individuals pay less because .. math

if pools need say 0.13000000btc right now as their bonus of 6.25:0.13 reward:fee(income:bonus)
which way should it be:

2000 transactors paying 6500 sat each (10 sat/byte of average 650byte) =0.13
or
4000 transactors paying 3250 sat each (5 sat/byte of average 650byte) =0.13

you and your madhatter family/relationships(you and doomads buddies) prefer less than 2000 average transactions per block where 1 person pays for say 0.3mb at 10sat/byte for the inputs/ooutputs. then 2.5sat/byte for the 300kb of bloat/meme and then 1700 other people pay more then 10 sat per byte for real tx data to try to 'outbid' each other to try to get into the remaining area of a block limit

..
oh and if you actually research. the main core developers that done these changes are blockstream sponsored. which blockstream were consulting with the hyperledger group (the institutional bankers of CBDC prototypes)
so no its not "mastercard" but nice try spinning that stupid idea.
its the other bankers that are using bitcoin as the sandbox experiment for limiting bitcoin utility as just a reserve asset vaults/swap and using second layers as the payment system
yep idea's inspired by hyperledger way back in 2015

you really should try to look at stuff and not just take doomads narrative. he is not helping you learn at all

even your use of the term "big blockers" is not something of a descriptor you have thought up yourself. you are just following a narrative shown to you by idiots that dont understand the big picture

[1714297562]

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[BlackHatCoiner]

which way should it be

2000 transactors paying 6500 sat each (10 sat/byte of average 650byte) =0.13
or
4000 transactors paying 3250 sat each (5 sat/byte of average 650byte) =0.13

The one which doesn't break backwards compatibility.

you and your madhatter family/relationships(you and doomads buddies)

Dude, what are you smoking?

oh and if you actually research. the main core developers that done these changes are blockstream sponsored.

I have made my research, and Blockstream developers (who were back then Bitcoin Core developers) support small blocks years now, long before second layer solutions come along. I'll quote you a noteworthy part from the book "The Blocksize War", which I suggest you buy and read yourself by the way:

Blockstream was therefore hated by the large blockers, who considered it to have a financial conflict of interest: an incentive to keep blocks small. In Blockstream’s defense, there is considerable evidence that most of the co-founders and employees of thecompany supported the small blocker arguments long before the company was even created or conceived.

[franky1]

nice quote.. have you understood it

rather than PEOPLE that want more transactions
small central group controlling the devs decided they wanted small blocks because of financial conflict of interest

yep blockstream got paid HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars. it was not a donation. it was an investment by bankers that want secondary subnetworks that use middlemen getting commission.. yep they want returns on their investments

so yea they dont like bitcoin being a p2p payment system because they cant make money from p2p payments

one script/game they tried was saying "more transactions=big blocks=more costs for nodes = nodes need to be paid" that idea didnt get much traction and died quick

.. the game is currently happening is to ruin bitcoins p2p proposition and try to make people think they need to pay more on bitcoin or pay a middle man on alternative networks

and you are falling into that same narrative

where as ..
bitcoin can have more transaction so individuals pay less individually*
bitcoin can have better fee mechanisms so individuals pay less individually
*bitcoin can have leaner transactions so individuals pay less

.. but you are falling into the trap scripts of "pay more onchain" have less tx onchain.
basically the game of everyone suffers unless they move to other networks

[BlackHatCoiner]

.. the game is to ruin bitcoins p2p proposition and try to make people think they need to pay more on bitcoin or pay a middle man on alternative networks

The "game" is to make Bitcoin a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. The second layer solutions don't exist to slow down the adoption, as you and your conspiracy friends believe, pretty much the opposite. Small blocks are a pain in the ass on-chain, I agree, but large blocks don't form a network that lasts. It is not a solution, because it doesn't hold sufficiency in the long term. Here's another quote if you can't comprehend it yet:

Large blockers prioritised the short term, while small blockers focused on the long term;

I don't say we shouldn't rise the block size limit. As I've said I'm in favor of it. I'm just saying two things: first of all, backwards compatibility isn't an easy-peasy part to go unnoticed, and second, larger blocks don't solve the scaling problem; they improve scaling on the short term, but it stills remains a problem.

[franky1]

.. the game is to ruin bitcoins p2p proposition and try to make people think they need to pay more on bitcoin or pay a middle man on alternative networks

The "game" is to make Bitcoin a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. The second layer solutions don't exist to slow down the adoption,

really
then how come the narrative is "lets not do onchain scaling and instead do subnetwork offramping"
and the whole "be patient onchain scaling will eventually happen when subnetworks hit critical liquidity issues to need more onchain scaling"

yep onchain tx scaling has not occured for 7 years because the direction of the core roadmap is to do subnetworks instead
thus yes subnetworks are a slowdown of onchain scaling

seriously
stop the echo chamber of a small central group. and think about bitcoin (the bitcoin network) as a whole for everyone..
you wanting people to move to other networks is about a small group wanting to get paid to be middlemen(routers)

they want bitcoin to remain limited and costly as it pushes people away from bitcoin

even your quote of the book you mentioned a couple posts ago is telling you this should you read it properly

..
here ill reveal the next phase of the game
once subnetworks are populated they want to then have mechanisms where fee's are collected into a central middleman to then be sent to pools via private contracts outside of the bitcoin network. so that the pools get paid to continue hashing. but without needing people to settle onchain to pay pools via fee's due to more games of making it too expensive to use onchain transactions and keep people locked into subnetworks for YEARS

this "off chain" payments to pools means the users of subnetworks end up paying more routing fee's to fund pools offchain. but where the bitcoin network onchain transactions are made to be even super higher to keep that financial incentive being deemed "cheaper offchain" even though the offchain costs will rise

the whole ploy is not to have a cheap functional decentralised payment network. but a middleman payment network with an expensive to use vault/reserve value network
which only the elitists can afford to use becasue they are only moving large amounts
they(the centralist idols you love/follow) do not want a decentralised bitcoin network for the unbanked without middlemen.. they want the opposite.
yep blockstream and its subsidiaries(chain code labs and brinks) have received hundreds of millions of investment from institutional investors and those investments need to generate returns
the sponsored devs interests are not about "the community/bitcoin ethos" its now their duty to make returns for their investors meaning breaking the bitcoin ethos to fit whatever system can help give back institutions their investments

[fillippone]

Glassnode published an interesting research on the impact of ordinals in the base layer.

It was published a few days ago, butt seems it wasn't reported here, but I think there are many interesting insight on the phenomenon:

Ordinal Theory and the Rise of Bitcoin Inscriptions

Recent weeks have seen an very unexpected trend emerge on the Bitcoin network, being the permanent and immutable inscription of data, directly into the Bitcoin blockchain. Data files that have been inscribed range from images, to audio clips, and even a version of the video game Doom.
This event has inspired a great deal of discussion and debate around the ramifications of this non-monetary application of Bitcoin blockspace. Given the significant surge in interest regarding NFTs on other blockchains over the past 24-months, it can be expected that the emergence of NFT-like collectables on Bitcoin will experience a similar growth trajectory.
In this report, we will explore the fundamental properties of both Ordinal Theory, and Inscriptions, and then analyze how this trend is being expressed within the footprint of Bitcoin on-chain data.

Maybe the (first) climax has already passed, but it's plenty of interesting analysis.

[larry_vw_1955]

the whole ploy is not to have a cheap functional decentralised payment network. but a middleman payment network with an expensive to use vault/reserve value network
which only the elitists can afford to use becasue they are only moving large amounts

i don't want to send my money on some level 2 network. if i'm doing that, i might as well be using an altcoin not bitcoin right? because level 2 = bad.

[franky1]

the whole ploy is not to have a cheap functional decentralised payment network. but a middleman payment network with an expensive to use vault/reserve value network
which only the elitists can afford to use becasue they are only moving large amounts

i don't want to send my money on some level 2 network. if i'm doing that, i might as well be using an altcoin not bitcoin right? because level 2 = bad.

there are ways to lock value and represent said value to be spent in alternative systems. however the current methods of certain systems are prime for abuse and dont actually represent/link/peg to said main value very well on the alternative system side
..
there will be some subnetwork systems in the future, but the current ones being promoted the most, wont be it. it is too flawed to be of general use, let alone used for a niche, as the representations/peg/lock is weak on the subnetwork side
..
there will be NFT on bitcoin eventually (via file hash representation that moves with the spender.. not vaulted whole file library with no latter representation in child tx), but the ones being currently promoted as ordinals are not NFT, its too flawed to be actually tradable onchain. as the representations/peg/lock is non-existent on the child utxo side

[bbc.reporter]

Inscriptions, also known as digital artifacts, are created when a file, such as an art image like those created for TwelveFold, is written (or inscribed into) units of Bitcoin called satoshis, the smallest individually identifiable units of Bitcoin.[/i]

Source https://www.theblock.co/post/215504/yuga-labs-drops-bitcoin-based-nft-collection-twelvefold

and thats the silly stuff that needs correcting..
they are not wrote into satoshis. they are placed as dead weight data into the witness area which is separate to the value stuff.
and when value is spent the next tx has no references in a spending tx that even references the dead weight data.

when/if the silly ordinals go bad and/or casey changes his algo to change which output he deemed is owner. and people are left realising they overpaid for something they have no claim over.. they will say bitcoin cheated them

I do not quite understand how trading NFTs will work in ordinals. How is trading possible in ordswap.io if there are no references to the artwork or the data? You appear to be telling everyone that people might lose their NFTs, however, trading has begun without complaints from the people.

https://ordswap.io/

In any case, there are many bitcoiners in social media that say NFTs in bitcoin are dead but it might only be the beginning, I reckon. We cannot be certain where this will stop. It can be argued that it might bring more adoption on bitcoin.

[BlackHatCoiner]

yep onchain tx scaling has not occured for 7 years because the direction of the core roadmap is to do subnetworks instead

And yet, it's the most powerful backwards-compatible, censorship-resistant monetary network on the planet. On the other hand, what you're proposing is to increase the block size limit, as there hasn't been a long discussion about this already, make blockchain work less efficiently, and break backwards compatibility. My question is: why aren't you on Bitcoin Cash already?

[nutildah]

In any case, there are many bitcoiners in social media that say NFTs in bitcoin are dead but it might only be the beginning, I reckon.

The beginning of NFTs on Bitcoin actually goes all the way back to the first 1 of 1 token on Counterparty, which is OLGA, issued on Jun 12, 2014. A cool thing about OLGA is its artwork is actually stored on-chain, though it wasn't added until a bit more than a year later. This is the transaction that uploaded the artwork (it is Counterparty-encoded):

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/627ae48d6b4cffb2ea734be1016dedef4cee3f8ffefaea5602dd58c696de6b74

Then it was followed by several other proto-NFT projects on Counterparty, including NILIcoins, Spells of Genesis, and most famously, Rare Pepes. These of course aren't technically NFTs by the strictest definition as they are 1 of manys, rendering them rather fungible. There's a few Rare Pepes that are 1 of 1s, like HOMERPEPE, which sold at auction for $320k in Mar 2021.

It can be argued that it might bring more adoption on bitcoin.

Assuredly.

[franky1]

these silly memes being "sold" for hundreds of thousands. are not actually sold to new recipients
its the maker selling to himself, to set a spot price. but at no cost becasue funds move from and back to the same person

this then fakes a price. to make people think they are worth a high amount

this same game was played on ebay with UK 50pence pieces being sold by.. the buyer being the seller, offering themself a price of £5-£50 just to set fake prices and get some media attention making people think 50pence pieces were worth £50

..
as for ordinals. they are not NFT. by any strength of peg/representation

[Artemis3]

I started a new 1 sat/b actual Bitcoin transaction yesterday. Lets see how many days the current spam wave will make me wait... Remember, it used to be 2~12 hours before Ordinals and friends invaded.

[larry_vw_1955]

these silly memes being "sold" for hundreds of thousands. are not actually sold to new recipients
its the maker selling to himself, to set a spot price. but at no cost becasue funds move from and back to the same person

this then fakes a price. to make people think they are worth a high amount

probably!  for example: can someone explain to me why they would  pay 1btc for images like this one? i https://ordswap.io/inscription/cb3894a721ea7852e0c075ecbeaf23c107c2336e7eb849ebae7c8138228583b6i0

just trying to understand if there's something i'm missing. i understand sellers can set their asking price whatever they want but why would someone pay $20,000 for a simple image like that? obviously, this person thinks just because it has a low inscriptiion number he can charge people 1btc for a piece of junk.

[pooya87]

It can be argued that it might bring more adoption on bitcoin.

It won't because those who are interested in these shittokens aren't adopting bitcoin. They are basically gamblers who seek out something (in this case garbage) they can place some "bets" on and see if it goes up in value so that they can make some profit.

In fact if the Ordinals attack has any effects on bitcoin adoption is that it will prevent adoption by making bitcoin hard to use and possibly even unusable if it picks up and the spam reaches or surpasses the 2017 spam levels.

[nutildah]

these silly memes being "sold" for hundreds of thousands. are not actually sold to new recipients
its the maker selling to himself, to set a spot price. but at no cost becasue funds move from and back to the same person

this then fakes a price. to make people think they are worth a high amount

Wash trading in Ethereum NFTs exists (as it does in BTC and every other major cryptocurrency) but I'm calling horseshit on this until you provide a concrete example of it happening with a Bitcoin NFT.

[Hispo]

I started a new 1 sat/b actual Bitcoin transaction yesterday. Lets see how many days the current spam wave will make me wait... Remember, it used to be 2~12 hours before Ordinals and friends invaded.

I would have set that transaction at 2 sat/bit at least, considering I have been noticing some important accumulation and delay on those that have opted for 1 sat/bit. Nonetheless, I am confident enough that this weekend we could see a significant drop in the mempool memory and the cheapest transactions could go through without much problem.

If there is no reduction, then next week would be one of high fees, similar to what we witnessed in mid February.  

[Wind_FURY]

I started a new 1 sat/b actual Bitcoin transaction yesterday. Lets see how many days the current spam wave will make me wait... Remember, it used to be 2~12 hours before Ordinals and friends invaded.

I would have set that transaction at 2 sat/bit at least, considering I have been noticing some important accumulation and delay on those that have opted for 1 sat/bit. Nonetheless, I am confident enough that this weekend we could see a significant drop in the mempool memory and the cheapest transactions could go through without much problem.

If there is no reduction, then next week would be one of high fees, similar to what we witnessed in mid February.  

This year, I believe we will truly start to understand the point of RBF and the fee market. It will not be the perfect situation, especially for those coffee-transactions, but with censorship-resistant, unstoppable money will come a price. I'm starting to understand that if it's not Ordinals, it's going to be another situation that there's more demand for block space. Maybe if there's more demand for payments in Bitcoin perhaps?

[Artemis3]

Unstoppable money or unstoppable spam? Who is willing to pay more to dominate the mempool?

Well RBF has been a thing for years, it just has been enabled by default when it was opt in before. But, having to redo the transaction with a higher fee should be an exception, and not a norm.

I want to see how long this second (post Ordinals) 1 sat/b transaction takes, first one took a whole week.

[AverageGlabella]

Unstoppable money or unstoppable spam? Who is willing to pay more to dominate the mempool?

Well RBF has been a thing for years, it just has been enabled by default when it was opt in before. But, having to redo the transaction with a higher fee should be an exception, and not a norm.

I want to see how long this second (post Ordinals) 1 sat/b transaction takes, first one took a whole week.

Unstoppable spam is going to win. People cannot use a currency when the transaction fees are increasing because of spam and any government that wants to hinder Bitcoin can attack the network by artificially increasing the fees. We are seeing fees go up from people spamming but what if a government or organization decides to organize a attack on Bitcoin with ordinals? The fees will go up a lot more.