On Ordinals: Where do you stand?

[franky1]

Name a Bitcoin version when the code was updated to "kick out spam".

Until version 0.3.21, client required to pay at least 0.01 BTC as fee (as standardness is concerned, of course), to avoid flooding the network with low-value transactions.

bitcoin always had sat precision. but the GUI only allowed transaction values of 0.01+ up until that point. there was no "rule" of fee amount until this point it was just GUI acceptance.
it was after this point where the GUI would display smaller amounts to resemble the underlying protocol. which meant they then decided to have a fee range stay at 0.01 for that era(political/human decision not protocol). and every few years as deflation occurred lower that by a decimal

and yes fees back then when 1btc was 30 cents, meant fees were $0.003 yep a third of a cent and from 2011-2016 they wanted to keep fee's below 20 cents by reducing the decimal fee range acceptable(up until about 2015 when the scaling debates started due to rising fees)

yep there was no "free market" fee structure from 2009-2015 so that goes against doomads other argument that bitcoin always relied on a "free market"of fees to control things. because the reality was that the fee market was controlled and adjusted to meet demands/requirements via dev politic decisions

much like even now underlying protocol measures fee in sats per kb meaning a 1sat per kb means most tx can be 1 sat. but its the user interface, politics and other spam attack vectors and silly meme bloating that pushes people to be spending $2 a fee instead of low cent amounts

[larry_vw_1955]

much like even now underlying protocol measures fee in sats per kb meaning a 1sat per kb means most tx can be 1 sat. but its the user interface, politics and other spam attack vectors and silly meme bloating that pushes people to be spending $2 a fee instead of low cent amounts

bitcoin seems to be under some type of brc-20 token spam attack lately and i think monkeys are behind it. the entire purpose of the brc-20 thing is to make more monkeys in different types of places.  and do it cheap. like for less than $1.

https://ordinals.com/inscription/91be8aa1ea0035914fdc5d30707429238769a480f3e69b68e4314c0bd044c1c1i0

[franky1]

much like even now underlying protocol measures fee in sats per kb meaning a 1sat per kb means most tx can be 1 sat. but its the user interface, politics and other spam attack vectors and silly meme bloating that pushes people to be spending $2 a fee instead of low cent amounts

bitcoin seems to be under some type of brc-20 token spam attack lately and i think monkeys are behind it. the entire purpose of the brc-20 thing is to make more monkeys in different types of places.   and do it cheap. like for less than $1.

https://ordinals.com/inscription/91be8aa1ea0035914fdc5d30707429238769a480f3e69b68e4314c0bd044c1c1i0

those are not monkey tokens

months ago i said the idiots dont even know what to use the dead weight area for but some point someone would use it to inject a coin within bitcoins blockchain with transactions within transaction which can ruin the economics of bitcoin..

well they tried. but again failed.
they are "tokens" of caseys new scam. a (pretend) brc token PRETENDING to generate 10000 brc tokens units, which again does not move within its braces or offers a in out within its braces. he again has missed the entire point of things like proof or ownership and proof of transfer
these braced text things stay in the input of their creation. they are not attached to any output. thus wont move with any output

atleast now he is just wasting 56bytes instead of 4million bytes

[bbc.reporter]

It appears much of the people who were waiting for their payments in bitcoin had to wait for 2 days before it arrived in their wallets? I was also waiting for a payment and it arrived after 48 hours of waiting. It was not an important transaction, however, there might be other people who need their payments more quickly and might be forced to pay a higher fee.

In any case, this news article mentions the cause of the high fees. If there is profit in these activities, I speculate this might begin the transformation of bitcoin into something similar to Ethereum.



Ordinals notched a new record on Saturday as the protocol used for inscribing digital assets on Bitcoin—producing assets comparable to Ethereum-based NFTs—had its busiest day yet.

In April alone, the daily record for inscriptions made was shattered four other times. That included roughly 72,000 inscriptions on April 2 and 193,000 inscriptions on April 23, according to the Dune dashboard.

Source https://decrypt.co/138438/bitcoin-transactions-soar-as-ordinals-barrell-past-2-5-million-notch-daily-record

[pooya87]

Name a Bitcoin version when the code was updated to "kick out spam".  I'm not convinced that's ever happened.  Why did we collectively not deem it necessary to change the code on any of the prior occasions people have spammed the chain out of greed or malice and yet suddenly it's imperative that we do so now?  Where are you drawing the distinction?

There are loads of examples where we've introduced consensus and standard rules that prevented abuses and spams or made it extremely difficult:
- Block size limit set on very early days to be 1 MB max
- Limits on the size of coinbase script size to prevent miners from spamming the chain.
- Preventing people from abusing the lack of outputs' scriptpub validation to inject massive size arbitrary data to the blockchain by introducing standard rules
- Introduction of OP_RETURN rules so that people can use that to inject their data into the blockchain but under controlled rules
- Limitations on data size that can be pushed to the stack in scripts
- Changes in fee and dust rules a couple of times over the year with the price changing
- Setting standard rules first and turning them into consensus rules regarding the dummy data in OP_CHECKMULTISIG(VERIFY) operations that could be abused to spam the chain like Ordinals does
- Same exact thing done with conditional operations' true/false stack item that could have been abused to spam the chain with junk
- Existing limits on number of OP codes, SigOp codes, etc. that a block can contain to prevent other types of attacks
- Limits on witness count and size for version 0 witness program
- Enforcing "empty stack" requirements after script evaluation ends to prevent junk data spam into the chain by abusing that (one or more junk data pushed to the stack at the end that will never be popped).
...

These are cases of the top of my head and almost all of them are abuse cases that are very similar to the Ordinals Attack.

[franky1]

guy lets clarify something because i see alot of people over use "ordinals" and then say one thing when they mean another

so instead:
ordinals v1 = first-sat scam in of itself alone
ordinals v2 = meme junk scam spam
ordinals v3 = brc20 junk scam spam

that way idiots can tell each other which version of ordinals they love and idolise and are still inducted in the delusion of thinking they are useful/needed. thus helps us teach them why they are being duped more precisely, and why they are junk more precisely

i see some idiots think someone is talking about the first-sat scam when others are talking about the memes. and then some are talking about the new brc20 when some other are talking about one of the other versions

[BenCodie]

guy lets clarify something because i see alot of people over use "ordinals" and then say one thing when they mean another

so instead:
ordinals v1 = first-sat scam in of itself alone
ordinals v2 = meme junk scam spam
ordinals v3 = brc20 junk scam spam

that way idiots can tell each other which version of ordinals they love and idolise and are still inducted in the delusion of thinking they are useful/needed. thus helps us teach them why they are being duped more precisely, and why they are junk more precisely

i see some idiots think someone is talking about the first-sat scam when others are talking about the memes. and then some are talking about the new brc20 when some other are talking about one of the other versions

There is one valid use-case that I am sure will one day be embraced by Ordinals - music. For now it is probably way too costly to inscribe a high quality music file to the blockchain, however once all of the junk is out of the way and Bitcoin becomes more scalable, I believe that is when we will see one of the truly viable use-cases of Ordinals.

There is a very large market share out there for this. Look into record labels and how much they take from artists. The artist usually takes home less than 15% of the profits that they generate in a record deal. If they use a streaming service, they'd be very lucky to take home 50% of what they generate.

When Ordinals for music are possible and there are projects catering for this need, the artist should be able to inscribe at a reasonable network cost, then sell direct and cut out all of the middlemen. This would be revolutionary for the music industry.

Until then...yes, we are in the junk stage.

[franky1]

music is also junk

bitcoin has a purpose. much like litecoin, monero, other alts have different purposes. bitcoins purpose is not a data dump of random data. its about a proof of work system to lock transaction data linked to the proof of ownership and transfer of units called satoshis

the trojan backdoor exploit that allowed ordinals v2 to occur should and needs to be fixed. whereby each opcode should have a requirement/standard and be activated when needed rather then let any crap through unrestricted.

its not suppose to store music or memes or other mediums of exchange(transactions within transactions)

there WERE rules to reject non bitcoin related stuff. but those rules got relaxed/softened. anyone that adores soft/lacking of rules does not understand what code is or does or why blockchains were invented to solve a certain purpose.

[nutildah]

Don't worry bros, it's all gonna be OK. Some day you'll realize that shedding all these tears was a waste of energy. You just need a big hug as a reminder that everything is fine. The Ordinals Terrorists can't hurt you because they aren't actually real.

[BenCodie]

music is also junk

bitcoin has a purpose. much like litecoin, monero, other alts have different purposes. bitcoins purpose is not a data dump of random data. its about a proof of work system to lock transaction data linked to the proof of ownership and transfer of units called satoshis

the trojan backdoor exploit that allowed ordinals v2 to occur should and needs to be fixed. whereby each opcode should have a requirement/standard and be activated when needed rather then let any crap through unrestricted.

its not suppose to store music or memes or other mediums of exchange(transactions within transactions)

there WERE rules to reject non bitcoin related stuff. but those rules got relaxed/softened. anyone that adores soft/lacking of rules does not understand what code is or does or why blockchains were invented to solve a certain purpose.

I would have to strongly disagree that music is junk in comparison to an image of a drawn ape. I agree with a lot of what you usually say but I would have to say that a lot of the world would disagree with the general comment that "music is junk". All I am saying is that if you want to actually see the potential use-case of Ordinals and what would be valuable in the future, good music and true art would be it. The junk will need to come first.

I do agree with you that this is a step away from Bitcoin's use-case and that it was not done well, and at first I thought it was stupid to inscribe data directly onto the Bitcoin blockchain because of the data issue. However, if Bitcoin can scale to handle as much data as it needs to in order to support Ordinals and the unlimited amount of junk that could come with it, then this only shows yet again that Bitcoin is extremely resistant, strong, and can gain yet another use-case in the future. It's not the worst thing in the event that it doesn't actually hurt Bitcoin.

[BlackHatCoiner]

bitcoin always had sat precision.

As always, going off-topic.

yep there was no "free market" fee structure from 2009-2015 so that goes against doomads other argument that bitcoin always relied on a "free market"of fees to control things.

There is. People have the freedom to set the appropriate fee rate for a transaction to be standard. By default it's 1000 sat/kb, but I frequently notice nodes I connect with that have set this lower-- even 0 sometimes.

but its the user interface, politics and other spam attack vectors and silly meme bloating that pushes people to be spending $2 a fee instead of low cent amounts

I can agree to an extent about bad software suggesting incorrect fee rates, but blaming politics and "spam vectors" (according to your definition of "spam") is silly.

[Wind_FURY]

What has kicking the spam out of Bitcoin to do with your freedoms?

Define "spam". I agree that dick pics and fart sounds shouldn't be stored in the Bitcoin blockchain, but to other people in Bitcoin Land, they're valuable "assets", and there's a market that validates that they are "valuable".

You are free to fork and/or make another altcoin for that purpose. Leave Bitcoin for bitcoin.

n0nce also made the same debate. To push Ordinals out to an off-chain layer like RGB, and I agree.

https://www.rgbfaq.com/faq/what-is-rgb

But there are users who want their assets secured onchain = in a "bank vault", not in a less-secure off-chain layer = a "cheap museum".

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[NotATether]

Define "spam". I agree that dick pics and fart sounds shouldn't be stored in the Bitcoin blockchain, but to other people in Bitcoin Land, they're valuable "assets", and there's a market that validates that they are "valuable".

Well it seems that the "dick pics and fart sounds" have their own protocol now, called BRC-20: https://unisat.io/brc20/meme

Thing is, I think people are abusing the ERC20 moniker - The original specification was for creating fungable tokens, while everyone else seems to be interested in creating what everyone commonly knows as non-fungible tokens or NFTs, including this "protocol" where I can't even see the memes and GIFs directly.

[Abiky]

It appears much of the people who were waiting for their payments in bitcoin had to wait for 2 days before it arrived in their wallets? I was also waiting for a payment and it arrived after 48 hours of waiting. It was not an important transaction, however, there might be other people who need their payments more quickly and might be forced to pay a higher fee.

In any case, this news article mentions the cause of the high fees. If there is profit in these activities, I speculate this might begin the transformation of bitcoin into something similar to Ethereum.

...

Ordinals notched a new record on Saturday as the protocol used for inscribing digital assets on Bitcoin—producing assets comparable to Ethereum-based NFTs—had its busiest day yet.

In April alone, the daily record for inscriptions made was shattered four other times. That included roughly 72,000 inscriptions on April 2 and 193,000 inscriptions on April 23, according to the Dune dashboard.

Source https://decrypt.co/138438/bitcoin-transactions-soar-as-ordinals-barrell-past-2-5-million-notch-daily-record

That's the problem. Constant NFT inscriptions will eventually clog up the BTC blockchain to a point where TX fees will become highly-expensive. This will force us to use an off-chain scaling solution such as the LN for day-to-day payments. BTC was never meant to be used as a "multi-purpose" Blockchain. For that, we have smart contract platforms such as ETH, ADA, BNB, and so on. Leaving Bitcoin solely for finance is best to prevent network congestion or adding security risks to the same.

I guess Bitcoin Core developers are going to need to work on another upgrade to help alleviate high TX fees for a while. Either that, or nodes/miners stop accepting transactions related to Ordinals inscriptions for good. Let's see how everything will turn out to be in the long run, as Ordinals rises on popularity. Just my thoughts

[pooya87]

There is one valid use-case that I am sure will one day be embraced by Ordinals - music.

This is why I keep saying that it is wrong to argue about the type of the content being injected into the blockchain using the Ordinals Attack. You can always find a content that is useful. But that doesn't make this any less of an exploit.

The only thing that matters is that they are injecting arbitrary data into a ledger meant for monetary transfers. This is an abuse of the system no matter what the data is, be it monkey pics, music or cure for cancer.

There are alternative methods and blockchains that are created for this exact purpose which are far more efficient too, and they should be used instead.

[franky1]

That's the problem. Constant NFT inscriptions will eventually clog up the BTC blockchain to a point where TX fees will become highly-expensive. This will force us to use an off-chain scaling solution such as the LN for day-to-day payments. BTC was never meant to be used as a "multi-purpose" Blockchain. For that, we have smart contract platforms such as ETH, ADA, BNB, and so on. Leaving Bitcoin solely for finance is best to prevent network congestion or adding security risks to the same.

I guess Bitcoin Core developers are going to need to work on another upgrade to help alleviate high TX fees for a while. Either that, or nodes/miners stop accepting transactions related to Ordinals inscriptions for good. Let's see how everything will turn out to be in the long run, as Ordinals rises on popularity. Just my thoughts

1. ordinals v1 v2 v3 are not nft. they lack many mechanisms of true proof functionality. the way i view caseys projects is a toddler using crayons(making a mess) and idiots clapping their hands thinking he is van gogh

2. LN has failed its promises and if you actually run scenarios. it bottlenecks MORE and has liquidity issues MORE the more its used. thus its a path to a deathly cliffedge. so dont put much hope into LN success. its a path of zombies walking to their second layer death. its design is bad. something new needs to be created to service the niche users that want offchain utility.... simply put, LN is not it

3. other altcoin subnetwork bridges have managed to achieve better fund reserving of bitcoin locks to then use other altcoin subnet bridges to give functionality to such value needs. yep many have given up hope of LN and are now using other bridge networks to play with value(avalanche achieved more btc locks than LN. in a third of the time too)

4. core developers already have enabled sat/kb but idiots dont want people transacting below $2 average fee and its them same idiots promoting ordinals as a positive of pushing fee's up. rather than letting a real 'natural fee market' to bring fee's down due to lowering the minimum

5. ordinal users are few and far between its been seen to be less than a dozen people all colluding together. hence why ordinals v2(memes) coincidentally all died within the same week. (if it was many random users(decentralised) you would not see this coincidental event happen, much like achieving pure 100% consensus is unnatural and instead an example of exploitation. going to 0% memes is also unnatural in a random world of decentralisation. which reveals the ordinal adoration brigade are not decentralised but instead a small group where they decided they have wasted enough of their time, at the same time.

6. bitcoins function is financial proofs of satoshi unit transfers. which come with rules that should protect it, bitcoin is not about treating one sat as different value of another, nor a meme library. nor a multi currency/token network. i do laugh when some who shout BTC=BTC then go full retard in another(sponsored) direction to try to claim one btc is worth more than another. trying to break bitcoins economics. all so they can damage bitcoins utility in so many ways that it makes people not want to use it. as thats their end game. they care more about the fame of causing controversy and being infamous for breaking things. rather than caring about the real utility of bitcoin. they are small minded idiots that dont care about bitcoin.

7. you can spot these idiots because they promote other networks and scams, they want bitcoin fee's to be expensive and they want bloat but hate people using bitcoin for normal purchases of goods and services.
those people that dislike bitcoin being used to buy coffee but happy for it to be spammed, while calling coffee purchases the unneeded spam but not wanting ordinals to be called spam

[d5000]

Even if we had these days a new peak in Ordinals activity, I'm still optimistic this fad will soon come to an end.

First let's look at the numbers: While the last days the number of Ordinals transactions was on an all-time-high, these were all very small transactions (probably this BRC-20 thingy) and thus the impact on the blockchain was not outside of the normal range since the introduction of Ordinal transactions (the important thing to look at is the "avg_vsize" and "total_vsize" parameter) and in general the total size per day is downtrending. DdmrDdmr's stats (the OrdPercentage parameter) show the same downtrending tendency. So it seems that the activity with respect to big inscriptions like pics and audio is reducing over time, and the new "peaks" are due to "sub-fads" with lower impact per transaction.

The BRC-20 "sub-fad" also shows that the NFT economy seems to be in desperate need for another "trend" to keep the money making machine going. (That we have already dozens of protocols for fungible tokens on BTC, the oldest from as early as 2012 or 2013, and they create a fad around a new, experimental one is quite funny however, but is logical, 'cause that's how fads work, it must be new to attract the intended public.)

And most important the NFT market is collapsing again after a brief relief. I believe the Ordinals NFT fad could have been the last death scream of the drowned. There will likely continue to be inscriptions but they won't impact blockchain too much.

When the fad started in February, I gave it "some months", and we're probably seing its endgame now already 3 months later I think by August/September it will be all over.

[larry_vw_1955]

When the fad started in February, I gave it "some months", and we're probably seing its endgame now already 3 months later I think by August/September it will be all over.

something very strange is definitely going on that's for sure. the only inscriptions that are being made are these brc-20 token things which i don't even know what they are for. but they seem to have shut out all the monkey pictures from being uploaded. 

[bbc.reporter]

@The0xJuan on twitter has made a thread that explains what the BRC20 standard is and what are the potential uses of this in the cryptospace.

This is a long thread. I will copy only the important information and leave the parts where he talks about bitcoin maximalists. Go to the source if you want to read all of it.



Ordinals brought a brand new sense of non-fungibility to the Bitcoin network. Sats that have numismatic value.

Ordinals inscriptions create digital artifacts that are immutable. BRC-20 standard brings fungibility to Ordinals inscriptions in the form of tokens

Yes, the BRC-20 standard can be used to create new tokens. Yes, something like $PEPE, but no quite if you’re comparing to a smart contract.

The trick is leveraging JSON data in the form of Ordinal inscriptions. JSON is an open standard file format and data interchange format.

This is where it’s interesting and differs from ERC-20

In a EVM chain, you create smart contracts that manage the token. The smart contract runs the show.

In the BRC-20 standard you store a script file in the Bitcoin network. That file attributes tokens to satoshis. This lets you transfer the tokens to other users

So instead of running a smart contract, the BRC-20 leverages on JSON data inscribed in a Ordinal. This script, with its limitations compared with a smart contract, can be used to create, mint, and transfer tokens.

All in the base layer.

This is a testament to the use cases that Ordinals theory is bringing. You can store more than JPEGs in a sat. You can store a script file to create and transfer tokens.

Source https://twitter.com/The0xJuan/status/1650970535570931712

[franky1]

and all of that twitter description is deceptive and wrong as the transfer part doesnt work
casey and his cult have no clue how data/crypto proofs. work its all a scam for the "creators" to scam people out of funds