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Author Topic: On Ordinals: Where do you stand?  (Read 9088 times)
dragonvslinux
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May 06, 2023, 08:44:33 PM
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (4)
 #601

This is looking plain horrible:



See the blue disappear? Next it will be green, next yellow... You can check in that legend what is the price of those transactions...


Who is blocking who from doing normal bitcoin transactions? Are the devs still going to do nothing and allow this hostile takeover like nothing is going on?

Looks good to me. Hopefully will encourage more adoption of Lightning network or other layer 2 solutions with increasing cost of mainnet transactions.

Yes Bitcoin is for bitcoin, not spam.

Reality is that Bitcoin is a free market. As long as someone is willing to pay the satoshis for a transaction, they are as entitled as everyone else to it. Spam or not.

Doing nothing concedes the project to altcoiners and their centralized interests.

Actually the opposite is true. Doing nothing is in line with the consensus created over a decade ago, whether you like it or not.

Make it hard for spam, find the way, i know you can

You mean like censor transactions? That sounds like a centralised solution to me.

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larry_vw_1955
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May 07, 2023, 01:14:25 AM
 #602


Looks good to me. Hopefully will encourage more adoption of Lightning network or other layer 2 solutions with increasing cost of mainnet transactions.
i'm not so sure that's a good point of view.

Quote
Reality is that Bitcoin is a free market. As long as someone is willing to pay the satoshis for a transaction, they are as entitled as everyone else to it. Spam or not.
some types of spam need to be controlled though. which is why they were never allowed in the first place.


Quote
Actually the opposite is true. Doing nothing is in line with the consensus created over a decade ago, whether you like it or not.
have a little compassion. he wants to use bitcoin to send money. and not be price gouged over fees. isn't that what bitcoin was meant for? i guess not, if we go by your point of view.

Quote
You mean like censor transactions? That sounds like a centralised solution to me.
i think it's fair to expect only financial banking transactions to be on the bitcoin blockchain. censorship or not. if you don't have censorship to some degree then guess what you have? anarchy.

i've heard so many complaints about LN that i stopped trying to look into what it is or what exactly it does. so please lets not discuss LN as a solution to high fees.  Grin
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May 07, 2023, 01:56:14 AM
Last edit: May 07, 2023, 10:36:21 PM by d5000
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #603

OK, it's "distorted" caused by many unsustainable ponzi schemes that operate in the Bitcoin network that's making fees surge temporarily? It's that the point you're making? What's the difference between that and the varying demand for onchain, censorship-resistant transactions? During months of high demand, should that also be considered "distorted" too?
My bad, I should have clarified what I mean with "normal incentive structure", before talking about the "distorted" structure.

For me the ideal basic incentive structure, regarding transaction fees and transaction size, is:

1) The fees should incentive the users to save blockchain space.
2) As a derivative of 1, the following incentive rule would be ideal: users should transact on-chain only for amounts greater than X per kB. X measures value or purchasing power. This means in simple terms: The bigger a transaction is (in kB), the more value it should carry.
3) X is variable over time and depends mainly on the number of transactions others are sending. (This answers your last question: high demand for transactions in BTC is not a distortion)
4) Ideally, X is a low amount in dollars, taking into account that you can send about 5 tx per kB, its ideal value would be 20$ to 50$, but it should not be higher than ~500$ (100 $/ small transaction) because this would already harm some use cases.
5) For X it's irrelevant if the amount transferred is in BTC or in some other kind of "valuable thing". So I'm generally _not_ agains NFTs or tokens being sent on the Bitcoin blockchain. If it's really valuable, then it also can occupy space.

Taking into account part 5 of this little "incentive ruleset", what's the problem with Ordinals now and why do I consider it a "distortion"?

The problem is that X is temporarily different for "fad/hype tokens" like Ordinals and BRC-20 because the expected value of these tokens in hype phases is much higher than the "real (long-term) value", and makes think people that X is lower for BRC-20/Ordinals transactions. *

So they think they're incentived to transact on-chain because even if they pay high fees compared to the low (or zero) value of the tokens they're moving (or creating), they could generate profit with it.

If we could know the future and that Ordinals will be popular forever, then again everything would be fine: then Bitcoin contains incentives to be primarily a multi-token blockchain platform. Then the current value of Ordinals transactions would be their "real value", and X would not be distorted.

But I think this isn't the case. I think many of us suspect that the Ordinals pics and also BRC-tokens will have only a short lifespan (maybe a couple of months) and the peak of the hype may have been already passed. Once this becomes clear to the Ordinals community, the hype will collapse, nobody would like to transact anymore with these boring NFTs - and much less if the fees are high. (And something I forgot: Actually there's not really a point to waste fees on the Bitcoin platform if you could use cheaper blockchains which are also safe, other than the "hype value". Something like BRC-20 could be perfectly used on LTC.)

In contrast, BTC has a very long-term value proposition: to be a strong global currency on the world's most secure blockchain. So there is a permanent conflict between the relatively stable X value of Bitcoin and the drastically variable X value of "fad tokens".


*To look at the same thing in a different way: If people look back from 2030, for example, they will see a period in 2023 when people transacted on average a much lower value per kB (or per block) than at other times, because Ordinals will be dead a long time already and nobody would understand why they wasted so many fees for such low-value transactions. The same than if we look back to Ethereum in 2017 and the amount of space scam ICO tokens occupied.

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larry_vw_1955
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May 07, 2023, 03:07:45 AM
Last edit: May 07, 2023, 03:30:56 AM by larry_vw_1955
 #604


But I think this isn't the case. I think many of us suspect that the Ordinals pics and also BRC-tokens will have only a short lifespan (maybe a couple of months) and the peak of the hype may have been already passed. Once this becomes clear to the Ordinals community, the hype will collapse, nobody would like to transact anymore with these boring NFTs - and much less if the fees are high.

bitcoin ordinals are not really even visible on opensea. then you have this site called gamma.io but their volume is dismal: https://gamma.io/ordinals/collections
wherever the real selling is happening it's probably not on these two sites. and maybe it's not anywhere. which kind of makes sense. people can only be so dumb to buy monkeys and lose money and keep coming back and doing it all over again...

edit: here's more evidence of dismal sales volume but on magic eden  https://magiceden.io/ordinals
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May 07, 2023, 06:45:42 AM
 #605

Quote
You mean like censor transactions? That sounds like a centralised solution to me.
i think it's fair to expect only financial banking transactions to be on the bitcoin blockchain. censorship or not. if you don't have censorship to some degree then guess what you have? anarchy.
If you only want to see financial banking transactions on the blockchain, why not use your favorite bank? There is censorship, a stable commission size and no anarchy - everything you like.

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May 07, 2023, 11:49:07 AM
 #606

You mean like censor transactions? That sounds like a centralised solution to me.
i think it's fair to expect only financial banking transactions to be on the bitcoin blockchain. censorship or not. if you don't have censorship to some degree then guess what you have? anarchy.

Bitcoin's network is collaborative in nature.  Individually, no one has any control over anything aside from what's theirs.  You decide what you do with your funds and how you choose to transact, but you aren't able to interfere in how others do the same with their funds.  That's what makes it so powerful.  Many people have views on what Bitcoin "ought to be", but no one can dispute that primary tenet. 

Have a look at this post I made back in 2017, at a time when loads of people were screaming about a perceived crisis, but it was just a short-term drama and there was actually no real issue (much like how I see things with the current situation).  Everything worked out fine.  Those who didn't like the path we were on left and did their own thing.  Some then later came back when they realised their new path was dumb and we had it right all along.  Bitcoin carried on regardless.

Short version, unless a majority of those securing the chain come together and decide to change things, status quo remains.  Path of least resistance, etc.

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Artemis3
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May 07, 2023, 03:35:22 PM
 #607



Clearly some people want to see Bitcoin destroyed. Bitcoin is not a spam database...


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May 07, 2023, 04:44:11 PM
 #608

Any transaction that is not made with the sole purpose of transferring bitcoin (and nothing else) is spam and should be prevented.
Are colored coins spam, in that case? Such transactions don't just transfer bitcoin solely. Is OP_RETURN spam since it creates another purpose for the transaction? What about transactions that create an output to the same destination as the input? In practice they don't move bitcoins at all, but the protocol understands this as transaction. Unless we count mining fees as part of the transaction, which in that case would make every Ordinal transaction a "real" one.

For the millionth time, every transaction byte should be seen as equal with any other given that it follows the protocol rules.
I explicitly mentioned that anything that falls within the accepted methods of performing things can be considered not-spam. Colored coins and anything using OP_RETURN (regardless of my personal feelings) is not a spam.
You can't really compare that with the Ordinals Attack which is based on an exploit of the protocol though!

Somebody on Twitter just broke Ordinals:
~
If this is to be believed, then that should make the dispute obsolete.
That would be true for an actual protocol that is also decentralized. When it comes to a centralized platform that is using an exploit to attack bitcoin, "breaking" is not even defined for it.

Looks good to me. Hopefully will encourage more adoption of Lightning network or other layer 2 solutions with increasing cost of mainnet transactions.
You can't use second layer if the primary layer isn't functioning well. In other words this will have the exact opposite effect since the cost of moving in and out of LN channel is also high.

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May 07, 2023, 05:04:19 PM
 #609

To add insult to injury:

Binance suspends bitcoin withdrawals due to network congestion...

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May 07, 2023, 06:18:57 PM
 #610

So at this point if super_testnet can find a way to break BRC20 then I'm sure he'd become an instant cult hero in the Bitcoin world for that. He liked the tweet I made asking him to do that so I have some hope this ad hoc measures will work...

I also sent an email to bitcoin-dev list asking them to (politely) get off their ass and do something about the mess they accidentally helped to create.

To add insult to injury:

Binance suspends bitcoin withdrawals due to network congestion...

Don't care, I expect Binance to go down within 4 years anyway.

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May 07, 2023, 06:30:27 PM
Merited by pooya87 (2)
 #611

So at this point if super_testnet can find a way to break BRC20 then I'm sure he'd become an instant cult hero

he isnt breaking brc

brc is already broke he is just proving its broke by spamming the network with useless transactions to show a miscount in ordinals
his game is also a spam attack

he was making tx pay fees of 10ksat for a 1in one out tx.. averaging about 90sat/byte. which has helped push up the fee rates thus also being part of the problem

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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May 07, 2023, 06:32:36 PM
 #612

So at this point if super_testnet can find a way to break BRC20 then I'm sure he'd become an instant cult hero

he isnt breaking brc

brc is already broke he is just proving its broke by spamming the network with useless transactions to show a miscount in ordinals
his game is also a spam attack

he was making tx pay fees of 10ksat for a 1in one out tx.. averaging about 90sat/byte. which has helped push up the fee rates thus also being part of the problem

So you're saying these blokes are dumb enough to continue using a broken protocol?

How are they even trading this. All exchanges that are offering BRC20 should be boycotted.

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May 07, 2023, 06:37:05 PM
Last edit: May 07, 2023, 09:23:03 PM by franky1
 #613

So at this point if super_testnet can find a way to break BRC20 then I'm sure he'd become an instant cult hero

he isnt breaking brc

brc is already broke he is just proving its broke by spamming the network with useless transactions to show a miscount in ordinals
his game is also a spam attack

he was making tx pay fees of 10ksat for a 1in one out tx.. averaging about 90sat/byte. which has helped push up the fee rates thus also being part of the problem

So you're saying these blokes are dumb enough to continue using a broken protocol?

How are they even trading this. All exchanges that are offering BRC20 should be boycotted.

im saying brc is a dumb thing. and a broke thing and yes idiots do buy junk ICO/scams and such and will always hope their things they are financially tied to will continue even when people tell them its broke

im also saying separately super_testnet is proving ordinals is broke. but doing it with his own spammy way and doing it using high 10ksat fee's
read the twitter instructions where he says in the github that anyone wanting to join his army of brc number count breakers should do so by paying fee's of 10ksat..
there is no reason to need to pay 10ksat.. thus super_testnet is trying to prove a wrong by causing more tx fee drama

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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May 07, 2023, 10:57:38 PM
 #614

.. thus super_testnet is trying to prove a wrong by causing more tx fee drama

Funny when the militant zealot who spams the forum with nonsense doesn’t see the irony when he bitches about the militant zealot who spams the blockchain.  I guess it's only a problem when it's not his little crusade.     Roll Eyes

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bbc.reporter
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May 08, 2023, 01:05:14 AM
Merited by pooya87 (4)
 #615

To add insult to injury:

Binance suspends bitcoin withdrawals due to network congestion...

I shake my head in skepticism on this. Are they making it appear that there is something broken in bitcoin? What is their motivation for this? Despite the high transaction fees, there is nothing broken. I reckon Binance wants their users to bridge their BTC to WBTC in the Binance smartchain. I would not be shocked if this is the reason hehehehe.

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dragonvslinux
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May 08, 2023, 04:10:10 AM
 #616

To add insult to injury:

Binance suspends bitcoin withdrawals due to network congestion...

This news is always irrelevant. Binance should just offer their clients withdrawals based on the current estimated cost and time, like they usually do. They are just trying to "protect" their customers from paying high fees, which in reality isn't protection at all. It's usually just a CZ-based attempt to encourage users to withdraw via Binance chain imo. Nothing more than a selfless plug.



As for the current topic, have read a bit more into the whole "ordeal". I still see nothing wrong and only high demand. I get that it can be frustrating for average users wanting to make transactions to either have to wait or pay high gas fees, but if you're going to use Bitcoin, you should be aware that this can be the case. As I said before, otherwise use Lightning network. Ideally this will help drive further adoption.

Also on a selfish note the last month or so has been pretty boring for Bitcoin imo. This actually makes it more interesting in my opinion. Miners must be having a blast with transaction fees per block that have higher than the 6.25 block reward. I did used to think that it was possible that block rewards going so low could reduce hash rate growth over-time, so looks like this situation has removed that theory.

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Kryptowerk
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May 08, 2023, 04:33:37 AM
 #617

To add insult to injury:

Binance suspends bitcoin withdrawals due to network congestion...

This news is always irrelevant. Binance should just offer their clients withdrawals based on the current estimated cost and time, like they usually do. They are just trying to "protect" their customers from paying high fees, which in reality isn't protection at all. It's usually just a CZ-based attempt to encourage users to withdraw via Binance chain imo. Nothing more than a selfless plug.



As for the current topic, have read a bit more into the whole "ordeal". I still see nothing wrong and only high demand. I get that it can be frustrating for average users wanting to make transactions to either have to wait or pay high gas fees, but if you're going to use Bitcoin, you should be aware that this can be the case. As I said before, otherwise use Lightning network. Ideally this will help drive further adoption.

Also on a selfish note the last month or so has been pretty boring for Bitcoin imo. This actually makes it more interesting in my opinion. Miners must be having a blast with transaction fees per block that have higher than the 6.25 block reward. I did used to think that it was possible that block rewards going so low could reduce hash rate growth over-time, so looks like this situation has removed that theory.

Wtf, is the "halt-of-BTC-withdrawals" still going on? This is, as you pointed out correctly, total nonesense. They should just offer different fee options for withdrawal (long waiting time, low fee, medium fee, medium waiting, high fee, high priority), with maybe a warning prompt for newbs to make them understand that the current transaction situation is most likely a temporary thing. Just make sure they understand their withdrawal amount justifies the fees that come with it.
Not allowoing withdrawals at all is a heavy restriction in everyone dealing with Bitcoin on Binance.

Get educated about Bitcoin. Check out Andreas Antonopoulos on Youtube. An old but gold talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc744Z9IjhY

Daniel Schmachtenberger on The Meta-Crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kBoLVvoqVY&t=288s One of the most important talks about the current state of this planet. Go check it out.
dragonvslinux
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May 08, 2023, 04:40:49 AM
 #618

To add insult to injury:

Binance suspends bitcoin withdrawals due to network congestion...

This news is always irrelevant. Binance should just offer their clients withdrawals based on the current estimated cost and time, like they usually do. They are just trying to "protect" their customers from paying high fees, which in reality isn't protection at all. It's usually just a CZ-based attempt to encourage users to withdraw via Binance chain imo. Nothing more than a selfless plug.



As for the current topic, have read a bit more into the whole "ordeal". I still see nothing wrong and only high demand. I get that it can be frustrating for average users wanting to make transactions to either have to wait or pay high gas fees, but if you're going to use Bitcoin, you should be aware that this can be the case. As I said before, otherwise use Lightning network. Ideally this will help drive further adoption.

Also on a selfish note the last month or so has been pretty boring for Bitcoin imo. This actually makes it more interesting in my opinion. Miners must be having a blast with transaction fees per block that have higher than the 6.25 block reward. I did used to think that it was possible that block rewards going so low could reduce hash rate growth over-time, so looks like this situation has removed that theory.

Wtf, is the "halt-of-BTC-withdrawals" still going on? This is, as you pointed out correctly, total nonesense. They should just offer different fee options for withdrawal (long waiting time, low fee, medium fee, medium waiting, high fee, high priority), with maybe a warning prompt for newbs to make them understand that the current transaction situation is most likely a temporary thing. Just make sure they understand their withdrawal amount justifies the fees that come with it.
Not allowoing withdrawals at all is a heavy restriction in everyone dealing with Bitcoin on Binance.

Just to clarify, they did re-enable withdrawals soon after, I referenced it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5451901.msg62211924#msg62211924

So if you're willing to pay 0.001 BTC ~$28 then it's all OK. As far as I can tell they otherwise removed the fee option that I think they used to have, unless I'm mistaken. Maybe this is just temporary until the mempool clears, as they replaced the pending transactions with higher fees, so probably want to avoid doing that again as I imagine costs some unnecessary amounts of money.

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be.open
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May 08, 2023, 04:41:34 AM
 #619

As for the current topic, have read a bit more into the whole "ordeal". I still see nothing wrong and only high demand. I get that it can be frustrating for average users wanting to make transactions to either have to wait or pay high gas fees, but if you're going to use Bitcoin, you should be aware that this can be the case. As I said before, otherwise use Lightning network. Ideally this will help drive further adoption.

Also on a selfish note the last month or so has been pretty boring for Bitcoin imo. This actually makes it more interesting in my opinion. Miners must be having a blast with transaction fees per block that have higher than the 6.25 block reward. I did used to think that it was possible that block rewards going so low could reduce hash rate growth over-time, so looks like this situation has removed that theory.
Although the current frenzy around funny green frog pictures seems a little artificially stimulated, this is another great stress test to test the Bitcoin network for anti-fragility and a clear demonstration in real time that the network can remain stable even in the distant future, when the reward for the block will tend to zero and the commission will be the only incentive for miners to continue working without relying only on sheer enthusiasm.

larry_vw_1955
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May 08, 2023, 04:55:34 AM
 #620

So if you're willing to pay 0.001 BTC ~$28 then it's all OK.
I guess if someone has a balance of say $300 then paying $28 for a withdrawal fee seems a bit high. What's the goal of being in crypto if you're having to fork out 10% fees every time you want to make a transaction? Just wondering. Because when you pay a 10% fee you need bitcoin to go up by 10% to cover your a**.  Shocked

Quote from: be.open
Although the current frenzy around funny green frog pictures seems a little artificially stimulated, this is another great stress test to test the Bitcoin network for anti-fragility and a clear demonstration in real time that the network can remain stable even in the distant future, when the reward for the block will tend to zero and the commission will be the only incentive for miners to continue working without relying only on sheer enthusiasm.

The only way you can know what will happen when the block reward goes to 0 is to wait and see. I'm sure transaction fees right now make up a small percentage of the overall income from mining a block. So it's not like miners could sustain themself from just monkeys.
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