⭐⚽⭐ Rainbet's Bitcointalk Sports Fanatics League (BSFL) – 13000$ rewards ⭐⚽⭐

[paco92x]

Cro2 Team rewards are in the wallet. Thank you for another super-fun season, and I can't wait for the new one to start. These week's pause from BSFL has come in handy, as I'm currently on a working vacation and have some home renovations to do, so I don't have much time to be connected. Next week, I'll be in full BSFL mode, locked and ready.

[slackovic]

If you save those bitcoins for a couple of years, who knows what you'll be able to buy. But then again, considering the inflation levels in Croatia, maybe it won't be enough even for a cup of coffee. 

Speaking of rewards, those 10mBTC that I got for finishing 2nd will go towards hedging budget.

I surely won't spend them right now as I hope we are nearing the end of the bear market. But then again, I'm not in BSFL for the money. It's great competition and I hope that it will last for many, many more seasons. I can't wait for the next season to start to see what kind of weird sport will the Cro2 duo introduce this time

[cryptofrka]

Fellas, some unfortunate news here..

The IP evidence is strongly supportive of ILuckyGuyI, CLS63, jakdanyel, emrecemsan, Velvet78, and Distraction all being the same person. In each case there are even logs of them sharing exactly the same IPv6 address, which is very rare if it's not the same person.

Mafia will sit down to discuss tomorrow. We think the season will still start as planned this Sunday but CLS63 and ILuckyGuyI might be leaving us. In that case, we'll have some options ready.
We'll wait for the official CLS63 explanation that is due tomorrow. We both know the guy and will give him the benefit of the doubt.

[buwaytress]

@buwaytress, I want to be fair and transparent upfront, our hooligans are already in a bootcamp! It's going to be rough! If we can't win inside the stadium, we'll win outside the stadium

No need to be fair, in fact, you might need to cheat regularly to get a point off my team. I decided to copy Forest/Como transfer tactics and buy cheap ageing players to randomly see who sticks and who doesn't.

The result will be spectacular.

P.S. Outside the stadium, I'll throw you our execs.

[goodpunt]

It's time to change my club-page and will do it soon.
I'm of course absolutely certain that I won't get relegated from Division 1 anytime soon - I just have too much firepower!

But I'm also curious if there is a market for me.
Would anyone back me to go down in the next season?
Never made any side bets but could be the first time - I of course would back me not to go down.

[slaman29]

Mafia will sit down to discuss tomorrow. We think the season will still start as planned this Sunday but CLS63 and ILuckyGuyI might be leaving us. In that case, we'll have some options ready.
We'll wait for the official CLS63 explanation that is due tomorrow. We both know the guy and will give him the benefit of the doubt.

This is very sad news for a lot of us, I don't know much about ILucky but for me @CLS63 is one of the old original guys in here from the days of SB and the first pools, so it feels very sad to learn about this.

I really just stay out of that part of forum so quite shocking

[darbitmobilerecovery]

Fellas, some unfortunate news here..

Mafia will sit down to discuss tomorrow. We think the season will still start as planned this Sunday but CLS63 and ILuckyGuyI might be leaving us. In that case, we'll have some options ready.
We'll wait for the official CLS63 explanation that is due tomorrow. We both know the guy and will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Fuck this are really bad news, for all of us, not only for the BSFL but also for us as the "gambling guys" since its gonna damage our reputation even more, is gonna be super difficult for him to explain this sadly, and even if he is saying the truth no one outside the gambling section is gonna believe him.

I still hope to see a comeback but everyday seems like is gonna be more hard.

For BSFL is gonna be a big blow also, i dont hae any problem to delay the start one more week if you need it.

[leea-1334]

Thank you Cro2, rewards received also,,, already lost my freebet on dumb Spurs so no need for me to relive my personal nightmare but also got the tiny amount from 2 Division which I will never complain about of course since I put nothing in it except the fee from being relegated last season

I tried to open this thread about @CLS63 and man,,, I had no idea such drama was happening. I really feel bad for the gambling group, hope everyone is okay.

[cryptofrka]

So, fellas - we came to a conclusion regarding BSFL's bad boys.
(for all of you that missed the drama, the link is here)

As you know, we're pretty chill regarding participation. We have members that are redtagged, members that were permanently banned, even members without BTT accounts at all - remains from the SB's chat.
There is basically only one rule - don't be a dick and enroll multiple users in the same competition.

In short, the accounts that seem connected (and in some ways surely are connected) are CLS63 and ILuckyGuyI.
We saw a lot of unpublished stuff from CLS63 that makes us doubt the connection in a way that has been presented.

Basic BSFL examples we investigated: Season 4: IluckyGuy 1 failed submission, CLS63 0. Season 5: both 1, different rounds. Season 9: 1-0 for IluckyGuy again.

Ultimately what happens here will be our call but we'd like to gauge your feelings as well. BSFL is a community project for a very long time already and we want to see how the community breathes here.
Don't portray this as a weakness to make the call, rather as a conversation with people playing. Your opinion matters here.

Let's hear what you guys have to say.. and be quick about it. Season 10 should start this weekend so we are giving you 24 hours for the vote.

The form is here. Thanks in advance

Code:

el che
goodpunt
vd309
Heyshbosh
Trofo
cryptofrka
leea-1334
hosemary
Hhampuz
imarios
paco92x
Da_Silva
HomieAllDay
ralle14
cls63
Saint-loup
slaman29
jayce
Daniel91
Rikafip
Harkorede
xLays
arallmuus
hakan2217
notblox1
Jinetics1111
buwaytress
B1g4udge
Renato297
un_rank
jeremypwr
Bitcoin_Budha
mv1986
pina_pino
Spack17
EarnOnVictor
Koal-84
cygan
LTU_btc
Kokee44
strongkored
ulven
VashaUdacha777
General_Bitcoin
welovebit
darxiaomi
vivekdhyani1
BABY SHOES
famososMuertos
yassinmanai
Dump3er
Dittoup
ajanwalker
ovcijisir
mitchr4
Nheer
ILuckyGuyI
Smartvirus
Bitcoin Smith
Ozymandias_DZ
russeras
entebah
execijutiere
LFC_Bitcoin
slackovic
chi20
Igebotz
MAAManda
Ochan_yazo_tochant

[hosemary]

I see the form says "Spack17 has a negative trust from nutildah but wasn't connected to these accounts by theymos so he keeps his spot for now."

I think it's worth mentioning that theymos didn't say Spack17 isn't connected to the farm.
theymos just said that he didn't analyse that account, because Spack17 hasn't been much active recently.

Full IP logs only go back 6 months, so analysis of that account (which hasn't posted much recently) is more difficult. I'm not willing to make a public statement one way or the other on that one.

There is strong evidence suggesting that Spack17 belongs to the same farm.
CLS63 never explained why he and Spack17 sent funds to the same deposit address. Spack17 has also remained silent.
Some people even didn't agree with nutildah until theymos posted about IPs, and they would probably have the same opinion, if theymos hadn't made that post.


cryptofrka and Trofo, you know how much I love BSFL.
BSFL is held on Bitcointalk and I think we should respect its community and the feedback posted by DT members. As you know, signature campaign managers never accept users with negative trust. I think we should follow the same policy in BSFL. The CLS63's case even matters more, because he cheated in BSFL too.


I'm really sad about what happened recently, and I am sure I will miss CLS63 if we don't have him in the next season. In the past season, I had a very close competition with CLS63 for winning the first division, and I really enjoyed it until the last second.
But honestly, I don't agree with having a vote. The voting took place in nutildah's thread, and also on CLS63's trust page. I hope CLS63 is able to convince users in nutildah's thread that he is innocent.

The form also says "CLS63 will remain a part of RTG".
I'm not partipating in RTG, but I would like the express my opinion about that too.

Assume that a user cheated in a signature campaign with multiple account. What should other managers do? Should they allow the user to participate in their signature campaigns because the user didn't cheat in their own campaigns?

We are one community. No matter whether you are only interested in gambling sections, or you only post in Bitcoin technical boards.


Again, I really hope that CLS63 is able to prove that he is innoncent.

[un_rank]

I dropped my vote already.
I had seen the thread some days back with just a few replies, returning now it is several pages long.

As you know, signature campaign managers never accept users with negative trust. I think we should follow the same policy in BSFL. The CLS63's case even matters more, because he cheated in BSFL too.

There has been a few cases where a reputable manager here left a tagged user on their campaign. Not sure if they did not agree with the intentions that lead to the tag or they did mot trust the judgement of the user that left it.
I believe there should be room for anyone to use their discretion some of the time to interpret the reference of the feedback.

- Jay -

[el che]

I've been following this closely since it started both here and outside the forum and I felt I needed to put my thoughts down.

First, I feel for cryptofrka and Trofo, you're in a difficult spot, having to make a call on a close friend and someone you've met in real life. I also feel for the rest of the BSFL field who are watching this play out and for CLS63 himself, if he turns out to be innocent and has had to go through all this publicly for nothing.

I want to be upfront that I have no personal relationship with CLS63. I've never spoken to him directly outside of competing against him in BSFL and other community contests. That distance means I don't carry any of the emotional weight this must carry for people who know him personally, for better or worse, it lets me look at this from a fairly detached angle.

I work in cybersecurity and I want to speak specifically to the IPv6 point, because it's the piece that carries the most weight and it's the one CLS63's defense hasn't actually convinced me.

IPv6 address space is enormous, roughly 3.4×10^38 possible addresses, compared to about 4.3 billion for IPv4. Unlike IPv4 where NAT and CGNAT routinely force thousands of unrelated users through a shared public address, IPv6 was specifically designed to give each device its own globally unique address. Most VPN providers reflect this: as pointed out in the related reputation thread with the Mullvad documentation, even on a shared VPN server, users are typically assigned distinct addresses from a pool specifically because the address space is so large that there's no technical need to share.

So for two accounts to show the same exact IPv6 address once on a VPN is already a low probability event. For it to happen repeatedly across multiple separate sessions, across multiple different accounts (not just two, but six), that's not a coincidence compounding linearly, it compounds multiplicatively each time. If we're conservative and say there's even a 1 in 1000 chance of two unrelated users landing on the same IPv6 exit address on a given VPN session (already generous, given the address space), then this happening on repeat occasions across six accounts pushes the odds of innocent coincidence into the realm of statistically negligible. And that's before you layer on the matching ISP shift patterns theymos mentioned, the wallet address overlaps and the near total non overlap in posting hours.

None of that is proof beyond argument on its own but it's the kind of evidence that shifts the burden of proof heavily onto the accused. And so far what's been offered in response hasn't held up, the VPN explanation doesn't account for IPv6 behavior.

I hope CLS63 is able to bring forward whatever evidence clears him and put this to rest, genuinely that's the best outcome for everyone. But if that evidence doesn't materialize or declining to engage with the specific technical points will be considered as a concession.

If it comes to that, I don't think this should be decided by a vote. I say this with respect for how hard this is for you Cro2, but guilt or rule breaking here is a factual question not a sentiment question. It's already being examined with real evidence and a direct statement from the forum admin. A community poll asking "how do people feel" risks substituting turnout and personal loyalty for the strength of the actual case and that's not a good basis for an integrity ruling.

I also don't think it makes sense for CLS63 to be allowed to continue in other pools if he's found to have run alts here. Hosemary made this point well: trust is a property of the person not something that resets per competition. If someone ran multiple accounts to gain an edge in one place, "but he didn't do it in my pool" doesn't resolve the integrity problem, it just narrows the frame to where it's convenient. As a player that logic doesn't reassure me. I have no way of knowing whether I'm at a disadvantage in any pool he's part of if the trust has already been broken once.

I know that sounds harsh and I don't say it happily. But this is a competition that for many of us matters because of its rules and integrity. If that erodes I'd lose interest quickly and I doubt I'm alone in that.

To be clear, if he proves his innocence with real evidence I'll be the first to say so and I'll gladly ship him a bottle of whiskey of his choosing as an apology for doubting him. And I know plenty of people will remain friends with him regardless of the outcome, that's a personal choice and it should be respected either way, it's separate from the question of competition integrity.

My take for what it's worth: any player who can't refute a credible multi accounting accusation shouldn't take part in forum run community competitions going forward or at minimum should face a lengthy suspension, similar to how doping cases are handled in professional sports. That doesn't mean he can't compete in private, informal pools run by people who are fine competing against him. That's everyone's own call to make.

That's my honest read after following this for the past several days. I know this isn't an easy decision for either of you and I don't envy the position you're in.

[Trofo]

Writing from the mobile so sorry for not properly quoting you guys (@hosemary, @el che), I would lose half a day to structure this one properly. Also, these are my personal thoughts, not me acting as BSFL manager, not sure if even cryptofrka agrees with all of them.

Ipv6 evidence

This is the main piece of evidence and the reason why I actually felt compelled to act and why I thought this vote inside BSFL is a good idea. To feel the pulse of other participants and not act against them. But bear in mind, such evidence was never before shared publicly, why is this case so much more important than all other transgressions with much more serious crimes?

Defending yourself in accusation thread

I really hope either of you will not have to do it in that way one day. Those threads are witch hunts, and everything you write gets twisted and turned against you. This forum has always been full of righteous fuckers just waiting to twist the knife when someone is down. Main reason why I am staying clear of meta and unfortunately that means I am also on backfoot when stepping in the ring since I don't intimately know the currents and alliances that are ruling the meta.

Now add to that a fact that you are living in a country where inflation is so bad, government has to ban Bitcointalk and every other source of info regarding hard assets and you are actually working in public sector on a position where your personal transactions can get checked anytime and any buying/selling of cryptocurrency can get you fired? Would you feel comfortable defending yourself there? And someone asks you to explain tx from 5 years ago when all your crypto transactions ever have been made through a proxy? As we mentioned, we have more evidence then what has been publicly shared and I understand why all of it wasn't public.

You guys think, people are writing in those threads from alt accounts for no reason? For sure newbie with 3 posts has such strong opinions about forum politics.

Red tag weight

Both of you presume that red tags have from DT1 have same weight. I don't agree with this at all, while I can't change how the forum works I can surely think with my own head. Our sigban moderator got into his position recently and he gets paid for it. His own argument about not trusting any of the best posters in the gambling is that we are getting paid by casinos. How it isn't hypocrisy if he gets paid to ban the members? Also, that part is not public, maybe he is actually getting paid by the number of people banned? He stated cleaning gambling section without knowing what a paid pool is, even though he is participating in one. When I try to help and provide hard data I get hit with distrust. When he claims these guys cheated in 40 contest and I ask if he actually checked that and offer 5 years of BSFL data – I get called grossly incompetent without answering any of my questions?  Add to that what was happening with aralmuus case, and where all our inputs got ignored and verdict overturned only when his confidants told him he is wrong... I am actually more inclined to distrust him in my trust list (didn't do that yet) than to trust every decision of his blindly.

Now we are getting to the alfa and omega of the forum, person that hired him. Should we blindly trust everything from that part as well? I have great respect for him for some stuff but he isn't infallible. What about whole fiasco with spending I don't know how much money on the new forum? Where are the invoices? Where is the trail of money? That could be anything from outright scam to incompetence. Where is the money from Bitcoin Cash fork? Fuck, I am paying 0.1mBTC to BSFL escrow for some players and getting owned 6$ for months just to make sure BSFL books are balanced.

Not looking to reopen those discussions but just mentioning as way to show he can be wrong and maybe this last sigban mod appointment is wrong as well. For instance, if I got that job I wouldn't be capable of doing it anywhere except gambling and Croatian local. For me to even try cleaning other boards I would be checking with best profiles on those boards what actual problems were. Getting discarded like all of us were tells me enough about character. I gave benefit of the doubt since some other members I value told good stuff about him but now I am done with that.

And that is precisely why I felt this needed to be put to community vote. And by community, I mean community here, whose opinion I actually value. Not someone from the outside that you can't have honest conversation with, acting on who knows what meta currents. Should I really trust what such person says about someone before what I have seen with my own eyes over the years? For us it would be easiest to just drop all of them from BSFL, we get paid the same, have less work, get into the good books with meta guys, even cls asked us numerous times to drop him and just let it rest. But my gut is telling me it would actually be worse for this community, and this competition integrity.

Appreciate what you both wrote I just don’t like it that we are now talking about it here. Hate it when politics gets mixed with sports both here and in real life. Also didn’t want to write anything like this prior to vote to not influence the outcome. Wanted a genuine feedback from BSFL community. And to hear the voice from lowest to best profiles.

[slaman29]

I wanted to write a LOT more but I decided to just say I agree a lot with points already mentioned above me. I have no personal connection with @CLS63 but I do consider him one of the old originals, and also because the members I trust also trust him, I consider he is by default the same level, just not personal.

I voted 'I do not care' because I actually want to decline to vote. I agree that if he was found to be guilty, though, that he should not continue. Main point it, I always believe in democratic judgment by peers and beyond reasonable doubt. If this system was implemented and all peers found him guilty, he is guilty. Was this the case? If not, he is innocent.

In real life, in my understanding it is supposed to be very very hard for everyone to prove beyond reasonable doubt guilty, all because the damage of punishing an innocent person is too high. I know someone from school days who is in jail now almost 20 years until today he says he is innocent. But he is a poor guy with no family and nobody who cares, to help him prove he is innocent. Maybe he is guilty, but he was in jail only because the conclusion was he was guilty was not argyed by anyone except him. So maybe my personal view changed because of this guy.

But in the end I support the final decision taken by those willing to take the burden.

It is very sad we have to do this, IMO. Very sad and no turning back once we took the decision, and if we made the wrong one, can we live with it?

Edit: I saw @Trofo's post and he said something very important. The person we must care about the most if the one who is all alone. Because one day we can be that person.

[VashaUdacha777]

I completely agree with what our leader Trofo said and with his opinion on this matter.

I don't know cls63 personally, but if the decision were up to me, I would let this guy stay in the championship.

What surprises me the most are the people who say they care so much about cls63, that they supposedly can't even sleep at night because they're worried about him, yet at the same time they never miss a chance to take a shot at him with their interrogations.

To me, that's just hypocrisy. If you're going to interrogate someone, at least have the decency not to pretend that you're doing it because you care about them.

[leea-1334]

Guys,,, this is the last thing I came to do on the forum, to decide somebody is bad or not when I have such limited information. I tried reading but ok we trust whatever somebody found, and I have to trust the organizers. Personally, I have no idea who is @ILucky or @Spack or whatever, except they were less active and now they disappeared,,, only @CLS63 seems to be the one staying. I cannot vote when I cannot understand what is going on. So I vote do not care same as people I spoke to. Sorry if this disappoints anybody  

Ask me about how we play and format of contest I can vote,,, this one it is out of my domain.

[hosemary]

Trofo, you may not like how DT system works, you may not like how nutildah is doing his job, you may not like how theymos intervened in the matter, but you can't ignore that fact that there's strong evidene that accounts CLS63, ILuckyGuyI and Spack17 are owned by the same person. I for one believe that nutildah is doing his job very well. I have checked the post history of many of the users who have been sigbanned, and I agree with nutildah in all cases with the exception of arallmuus' case. I'm saying this as someone who is active in different boards. I have made many posts in gambling sections and I am also active in Reputation and Bitcoin technical discussions.

I don't think I need to explain how much I respect you and cryptofrka as well, and how much I appreciate what you do in the forum.

You say there's evidence that can't be shared publicly. OK. I trust your words, but I trust theymos' words too.
Also note that the evidence against CLS63 and the two other users were provided by different people, not only nutildah.

I don't know what evidence you have and how strong it is. Even if you can't share them publicly, you may want to consider sharing them privately with some reputable members of the forum (including some of users you don't like).

My main point is that I don't agree with voting.
If CLS63 hasn't cheated in the BSFL, he deserve to stay in LMS. If CLS63 has cheated in the BSFL, he must be out of it and all other forum contests.
I don't like how all BSFL members are eligible to vote, even though they don't know what private information you are talking about and they don't know what IPv6 is.


Just a suggestion:
You can ask theymos to share more data with you (I don't know if he will share such data with you, though). You analyze the data by yourself or any one else who is good at such stuff, and make the final decision. This is far better than asking opinion from people who don't have any technical knowledge.

If you say "We as BSFL managers did our investigations and decided to allow CLS63 to continue in BSFL" is better than you say "We allow CLS63 to continue in BSFL because members voted fot that."

Again, I really hope that CLS63 is innocent.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

We’ve had drug dealers, scammers, many other dog shit people who have been very active on this forum over the years. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so much effort put in to investigating supposed mishaps on the forum as we are now. I’m not enjoying the direction that the forum is heading in if I’m brutally honest.

I’m struggling to give a shit about people earning peanuts on the forum using Alt Accounts. I’ve always despised authority and I don’t like where we are heading. That post by Trofo is one of the best posts I’ve seen for a long time. There are many more questions about much more serious instances of financial foul play here, some by the most senior people on this forum but they are still here posting, no investigations in to them.

[notblox1]

I sent my vote.
It is sad to see something like this happening, and BSFL getting involved in this drama.   
Now I am wondering what changes are we going to see in new season of BSFL if both members are banned from their divisions?

[ovcijisir]

I took a look on CLS 63 profile and saw positive trust from Cryptofrka, and that is enough for me to vote positive vote for him on the questionnaire.

To be honest I try to stay away from.all the drama and hate visiting Meta as I still feel sick whenever I visit it from past bad experiences with some of guys from our local section. So I didn't have stomach to check whole thread with accusations in detail, but I guess the quick skim was enough to make decision.

~
What surprises me the most are the people who say they care so much about cls63, that they supposedly can't even sleep at night because they're worried about him, yet at the same time they never miss a chance to take a shot at him with their interrogations.

To me, that's just hypocrisy. If you're going to interrogate someone, at least have the decency not to pretend that you're doing it because you care about them.

I think this is just taking advantage of opportunity to meet signature quota from the drama their frend is involved in.