Restrict newbies from posting in the lending board?

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Its very frustrating when newbies go and ask for a loan I agree, but its not fair that they get negative feedback one second after and left out in the cold.

I also don't support seing a newbie without having any experience about the forum to jump into the lending section to demand for loan, for crying out loud this is not a lending platform, it's bitcoin discussion community, we have to consider a number of newbies that register each day without staying on the forum and left, should such people be granted access to take a loan where they are not been established?

We all are under satoshi on this forum and this forum is for everyone no mater what rank people have.

No segregation here and don't make it look like any, if you think you're interested in loan, stay for a while to attain a particular rank and understand the forum and read the rules, get familiar with the boards and read also the loan requirements before applying if eligible, though tagging them may not be the absolute solution but putting them on ignore list is a better way.

[Mpamaegbu]

Issues of life and life unending problems know no ranks, creed or age. Though I find it amusing whenever I stumble on posts by newbies asking for loans here (as I know most of them aren't genuine), I still believe it's within their limit to exercise that right to ask. I like how theymos allows newbies breathing space here. I'm sure he knows what he's doing with that. We all were once noobs, newbies, greenhorns, novices and amateurs like them before we got to where we're today. I think the greater responsibility and discretion should lie with the veterans or high ranked members who are going to be lending to these newbies seeking loans. They should be able to sieve through to know those who are genuine and those who aren't and do the needful with such discernment.

[Crypto Library]

Thanks to OP @DireWolfM14 for bringing this topic to infornt of us. Not only the lending topic but there are many other topics where the newbies are spamming whether they understand it or not, and which is very annoying to us many times. And I think that by newbies it will happen, that's normal.
And so I think it is necessary to add a setting that not only prevents newbies from spamming in the Lending topic but also restricts them in all places where they can spam. And the first thing that can be done for this is that, for example, we have a setting in the PM option where we can prevent our inbox from newbies PMing.



I think such an option should be there for op of topic where he can restrict newbies as per his wish.

[PowerGlove]

(...)

That's actually quite an interesting take on this issue. You're saying (I think) that instead of making this proposal a forum-wide change, there should be a way for people to set up "post filters" themselves?

Just thinking out loud here, but being able to specify a (carefully sanitized) expression (maybe PHP, maybe something custom) to define per-board post filters would be a pretty cool feature!

OP could then go into his "Post Filtering" settings and under "Marketplace -> Lending" could enter an expression like: exclude($memberRank < 2) (where 0 == "Brand New", 1 == "Newbie", 2 == "Jr. Member", etc).

I'd probably use an expression like: exclude($memberPostCount > 50 && $memberEarnedMerits / $memberPostCount < 0.5) to clean up my view of certain boards.

I also like that this feature is in keeping with the forum's mission to maximize freedom: people would retain the ability to post (mostly) wherever they want without too many restrictions, but would also gain the ability to control their experience and (attempt to) make their time spent reading the forum more pleasant.

Edit: There's an "era mismatch" bug in my second example expression: either $memberEarnedMerits should be changed to $memberTotalMerits (i.e. $memberEarnedMerits + $memberAirdroppedMerits), or $memberPostCount should be replaced with $memberPostCountNewEra (or something like that, you get my point).

[DaNNy001]

(...)

That's actually quite an interesting take on this issue. You're saying (I think) that instead of making this proposal a forum-wide change, there should be a way for people to set up "post filters" themselves?

Just thinking out loud here, but being able to specify a (carefully sanitized) expression (maybe PHP, maybe something custom) to define per-board post filters would be a pretty cool feature!

OP could then go into his "Post Filtering" settings and under "Marketplace -> Lending" could enter an expression like: exclude($memberRank < 2) (where 0 == "Brand New", 1 == "Newbie", 2 == "Jr. Member", etc).

I'd probably use an expression like: exclude($memberPostCount > 50 && $memberEarnedMerits / $memberPostCount < 0.5) to clean up my view of certain boards.

I also like that this feature is in keeping with the forum's mission to maximize freedom: people would retain the ability to post (mostly) wherever they want without too many restrictions, but would also gain the ability to control their experience and (attempt to) make their time spent reading the forum more pleasant.

Yeah I guess that could save a lot of people from seeing shit they don't want to see, just like a general ignore button but these has to deal with general specification on the particular rank of account or post from those certain ranks you don't want to see. I donno if am getting the whole set up correct and please put me in line if am out but if I am, I would say its a nice idea but there are some little disadvantage to it but its normal as in good work advantage and disadvantage must be there. And the only disadvantage for now which I feel it might possibly have is the going to be the rate of growth of newbie account delayed because when this option is implemented most reputable newbie accounts that will have grown fast here in creating good works will also suffer from this new setting as the restriction will probably affect every account on the particular rank been restricted

[Poker Player]

I don't see limiting newbies' ability to post in the lending board as having a big affect on the forum.

It's not big, but it's also another step on a slippery slope. Every time I see someone argue for more restrictions, I appreciate theymos' hands-off approach more.

Newbies already have a similar limitation, they cannot post on the Serious Discussion boards. I am all for this.

Having a bunch of newbies who keep asking for a loan without collateral or anything to end up red tagged seems to me a worse effect for them than simply limiting them from posting there until they are at least a jr member.

[AHOYBRAUSE]

I don't see limiting newbies' ability to post in the lending board as having a big affect on the forum.

It's not big, but it's also another step on a slippery slope. Every time I see someone argue for more restrictions, I appreciate theymos' hands-off approach more.

Newbies already have a similar limitation, they cannot post on the Serious Discussion boards. I am all for this.

Having a bunch of newbies who keep asking for a loan without collateral or anything to end up red tagged seems to me a worse effect for them than simply limiting them from posting there until they are at least a jr member.

Another approach to this topic could be to make the whole lending section inaccessible to newbies. Not only for posting, but also for reading. Basically a closed section from member level and up.

Don't know if there is any section in this forum that works that way but in other communities you also have something like an "expert area" which you can only enter when you meet certain criteria.

And about the neg feedback given to newbies asking. I think it's alright since we know these people won't come back anyway. Still there should be a way for them to redeem themselves if they actually become a part of the forum so they can get rid of the red tag.
Blaming Timelord2067 for giving these feedbacks is nonsense. Condoras, Shasan and others also do that, and it's their good right to send a warning to the rest of us members.

[Poker Player]

Another approach to this topic could be to make the whole lending section inaccessible to newbies. Not only for posting, but also for reading. Basically a closed section from member level and up.

Don't know if there is any section in this forum that works that way but in other communities you also have something like an "expert area" which you can only enter when you meet certain criteria.

AFAIK there is no section like that on this forum but I know there are similar ones in other forums.

In general it is for a different reason that I know of, it is because controversial things are posted on them that you don't want to be able to find at the click of a search engine.

As there is no such section in this forum, I doubt that it will be implemented, in any case at best we will convince theymos to have the lending section restricted in a similar way to the Serious Discussion one. But that, if he decides to change it, is not going to be tomorrow. He usually takes his time to make changes to the forum.

I am editing this because I just thought of the Investigations section which is closed to the public, but I don't know if it is available to all ranks.

[Woodie]

This is a 50/50 approach afaik, if loans are accessible by users with collateral there is definitely no restriction on rank, it just gets bad when newbies with no reputation  whatsoever start posting loan requests when they know very well they don't  qualify for one and won't get it anywhere...

Alternative to the proposed is giving out soft bans to newbies requesting  for loans without collateral and if the user is a repeat offender then the nuke can be deployed(permanent Ban).

Btw are we saying newbies can't offer loans if the lending board becomes off limit to them?

[LoyceV]

topic where he can restrict newbies as per his wish.

This is the slippery slope I mentioned.

Newbies already have a similar limitation, they cannot post on the Serious Discussion boards. I am all for this.

I'd choose adding a new board with certain restrictions over restricting existing boards.

OP could then go into his "Post Filtering" settings and under "Marketplace -> Lending" could enter an expression like: exclude($memberRank < 2) (where 0 == "Brand New", 1 == "Newbie", 2 == "Jr. Member", etc).

I've seen similar suggestions before. Why not make use of the self-moderation feature? It could even be maintained by a user bot.

[Poker Player]

I'd choose adding a new board with certain restrictions over restricting existing boards.

What's the reason for that? 

For a newbie all boards are new.

[Bureau]

I am not in support and I don't oppose. What you want is to restrict the future of this forum. Since you encountered spammers you are now freaking out.

I would never block my clients.What i would do is to tackle them and if for some.reason I cannot.then I would ignore them.

[Timelord2067]

OP could then go into his "Post Filtering" settings and under "Marketplace -> Lending" could enter an expression like: exclude($memberRank < 2) (where 0 == "Brand New", 1 == "Newbie", 2 == "Jr. Member", etc).

I've seen similar suggestions before. Why not make use of the self-moderation feature? It could even be maintained by a user bot.

I have no skills creating code.

How does the above prevent newbies creating their own threads seeking loans?  From what I can tell, my own recollection is that most newbies in recent times are asking for loans without providing collateral or with goods that are not crypto related which is contrary to the "unofficial" (wink wink they are official when we want them to be wink wink) rules contained in threads pinned to this section with titles such as "no collateral = no loan" or words to that effect.

These rules aren't enforced by the admin/mods, so either we get admin/mods who do enforce the rules, OR, we change the rules by banning the newbies and Jr Members.

Until then, newbies and jr members will continue to receive negative trust feedbacks and flags as appropriate.

[leonair]

Thanks to OP @DireWolfM14 for bringing this topic to infornt of us. Not only the lending topic but there are many other topics where the newbies are spamming whether they understand it or not, and which is very annoying to us many times. And I think that by newbies it will happen, that's normal.
And so I think it is necessary to add a setting that not only prevents newbies from spamming in the Lending topic but also restricts them in all places where they can spam. And the first thing that can be done for this is that, for example, we have a setting in the PM option where we can prevent our inbox from newbies PMing.



I think such an option should be there for op of topic where he can restrict newbies as per his wish.

Newbie never ask to borrow money by PM. they seek loans in the landing board. however, such incidents are not seen regularly. sometimes it is done by scammers and spammers. So I don't think it is logical to keep the pm option closed for the newbie. Because a newbie may need to pm to some senior members to share some kind of information. or they may try to pm for any help in distress. this forum is a friendly place so don't be hard on anyone here. In this case you can just ignore that post if a newbie opens a landing topic or if you are annoyed by someone's post's


Just click Ignore button..

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Thanks to OP @DireWolfM14 for bringing this topic to infornt of us. Not only the lending topic but there are many other topics where the newbies are spamming whether they understand it or not, and which is very annoying to us many times. And I think that by newbies it will happen, that's normal.
And so I think it is necessary to add a setting that not only prevents newbies from spamming in the Lending topic but also restricts them in all places where they can spam. And the first thing that can be done for this is that, for example, we have a setting in the PM option where we can prevent our inbox from newbies PMing.



I think such an option should be there for op of topic where he can restrict newbies as per his wish.

If i can get your point clearly here, you are referring to situations where newbies will even be disallowed to post on some particular threads made by members of the forum, not only on the boards but this time being extended to threads, i can partially agree with this because if we are to close eyes for the bad ones to byepass then the good would have also gone together with them while our eyes remain closed, which means not every newbie is a newbie, secondly bot every newbie is a troller or spammer, they can in rare cases although give upto the quality of what a higher rank individuals can deliver.

 Let look at the consequences also before suggesting such, we were once a newbie remember, and they should not be deprived right for posting where they feel they have something to offer except on certain conditions like the board(s) where the forum restricted them from posting, members could abuse the opinion and everyone restricting newbies from making a reply on their post.

[PowerGlove]

OP could then go into his "Post Filtering" settings and under "Marketplace -> Lending" could enter an expression like: exclude($memberRank < 2) (where 0 == "Brand New", 1 == "Newbie", 2 == "Jr. Member", etc).

I've seen similar suggestions before. Why not make use of the self-moderation feature? It could even be maintained by a user bot.

While that is a cool idea (using a bot to enforce local rules in a self-moderated thread), it's got nothing to do with what I suggested.

You're talking about individual threads, and I'm talking about whole boards. You're talking about deleting posts, and I'm talking about hiding them.

What I'm saying is that people have their own ideas about OP's suggestion (whether and how it should be implemented), and a consensus is unlikely to be reached, so why not think about the problem in a decentralized way?

If people could define personalized "board rules" that hid posts (on a given board) according to some criteria (probably given by entering an expression in some simple programming language), then we wouldn't have to agree on anything and we could all just set things up how we like them:

(*) DireWolfM14 would set his "Marketplace -> Lending" expression (somewhere in settings) to: exclude($memberRank < 2), because that's how he wants it to work (doesn't want to see posts from newbies on the lending board).

(*) Timelord2067 would set his to: exclude($memberRank < 3), because that's how he wants it to work (even more restrictive, only wants to see posts from "Members" and above on the lending board).

(*) Someone might decide that they don't want to see posts on the lending board from anyone with less than 100 merits, and they would set their expression to: exclude($memberEarnedMerits < 100).

(*) People that don't care would leave their expression box empty (and nothing would change for them). Alternatively, the forum might pre-populate it with: exclude($memberRank < 2) as a kind of "soft" policy (i.e. one that you can override, but only by going into your settings and deleting the expression).

Now, obviously none of this prevents newbies from posting on the lending board in the first place (which is probably a good thing considering theymos' stance on restricting freedoms) but it does solve the problem of lenders ever having to deal with any of those posts, or even see them (if they make use of this feature, that is).

It's also general-purpose and (I believe) would find uses on other boards. I know it seems like a seriously complicated thing to pull off (and it kind of is, I guess) but it's essentially just a very beefed-up version of my existing member filtering patch (i.e. you can think of that patch as being a special case of what I've been outlining here: whenever you click the diamond "on" in that patch, it's basically the same thing as one of these hypothetical exclusion expressions being in effect).

(I'm not suggesting that myself or anyone else should be working on this, it's a pretty heavy lift with lots of cross-cutting concerns, performance considerations and thorny problems to work through; it would take a few months to implement properly. All I'm doing in this post is clearing up confusion and explaining what I meant in my previous post.)

[Timelord2067]

(*) Timelord2067 would set his to: exclude($memberRank < 3), because that's how he wants it to work (even more restrictive, only wants to see posts from "Members" and above on the lending board).

Someone would have to walk me through how to do that, but the issue DireWolfM14 raises is newbies are total unknowns and as such are more likely to walk off with funds acquired in a loan than a user who has climbed the ranks through posting thoughtful posts that along the way are merited.  Lenders facilitating loans can see their posts and get a feel for the application whereas newbies don't have any credibility at all and therefore shouldn't apply for a loan.

Fiat banks don't give loans to children.  Street lenders ^{(*cough* sharks)} likewise wouldn't lend to children (not without collateral I would imagine).

Blocking newbies from my view isn't what I'm hoping to achieve in my support of what DireWolfM14 is proposing, it's blocking newbies from being in the lending section totally.

[PowerGlove]

Blocking newbies from my view isn't what I'm hoping to achieve in my support of what DireWolfM14 is proposing, it's blocking newbies from being in the lending section totally.

Yeah, I had a hunch that that's how you might feel. (Don't ask me why, you just seem to be the type that finds rigid rule enforcement to be a very satisfying thing.)

I'm looking at this problem through a different lens than you, I suppose, and I'm basing my thinking on what DireWolfM14 is hoping to achieve:

My suggestion isn't about protecting lenders or preventing defaulted loans, the lenders are quite capable of taking care of themselves.  My suggestion is about reducing spam and trolling, and keeping the lending board a clean and practical place to conduct business.

[Timelord2067]

Recently there have been a couple of newbies who have been trolling not just the lender's threads it anyone's threads that are started ranging from Legendary down to newbies.

Take away the newbies and the trolling would stop overnight.


If I can use an analogy to answer your observation...Grey areas wouldn't occurr if things were more black or white.

I'm glad we both feel there is a need for change from how things are at the moment.

[pawanjain]

This is very accurate. Newbies and I will suggest Jr.member also should be restricted from posting in Lending section.
Just 2 days back I went to Lending board to see how it works because even I wanted to start lending out money but I was disappointed.

All I could see was newbies asking for loans and getting tagged in return. It was all that I could see and no real benefits from lending.
If newbies can get away with it so easily by creating new accounts then there's no point for them to make posts in the section at first place.

If there were more real lending posts out there then it would have interested not only me but many others.
Further more, moderators would have to spend lest time moderating this section.