Petition to remove Wasabi from recommendations of bitcoin.org

[Wind_FURY]

But if a "tainted" UTXO passed through, then it's merely an illustration that the blockchain analysis company should set up more filters.

You don't get it yet. Taint can be defined by any entity. I can right as well say that coinbase rewards are tainted. If I make the disclaimer that I will provide absolutely no evidence for my claim, then you can't disprove it, no matter how many chain analysis companies argue it is or isn't tainted.

Read the whole post. I'm making the same illustration like you. If the blockchain analysis companies find a positive = it validates the blockchain analytics' "effectiveness". BUT if they make a false negative = they could merely say they need to set up more filters. They may have put themselves in an idisputable position.

- There should be an analysis company that scans the analysis of the blockchain analysis companies.

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[Pmalek]

Yes, I make sure to keep proof of everyone's collaboration with scamming sites.

No you don't. ChipMixer probably had 60-70 participants at the time the site got seized and went offline. You never mentioned anyone besides those questioning your 'we are the ultimate privacy tool' claims. Only those not agreeing with you were called thieves who have stolen bitcoin from Bitcointalk users in the past and are now looking for new ways to steal again. You don't seem to understand how advertising works.

That's just your unsuccessful way of trying to divert the discussion away from Wasabi, zkSNACKs, and your blockchain analysis partners to your fan fiction theories.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Thanks for confirming there is no difference.

There is clearly a difference between being a scammer, and having your business confiscated. The result to the victims is the same, but there is clearly a difference. I agree that the potential to lose customers' coins is a very high price to pay, and might not worth it. Better use a trustless option, like coinjoin or swap XMR.  

It's the same topic because the stored private keys prove ChipMixer was a premeditated scam the entire time.

That is true if ChipMixer had said they weren't keeping the private keys. As far as I can recall, they never argued they were deleting the private keys after the end of the session. They were only deleting the logs:

How long do you keep logs?

Your session lasts for 7 days. After that, your session and all its data will be removed. You can also destroy your session before time is up. We keep statistical data ie. how much was donated.

I do agree that not deleting the private keys wasn't good practice.

[Medusah]

"Proposal: adding a chain analysis warning in Wasabi wallet page".

https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/issues/4125

[NotATether]

"Proposal: adding a chain analysis warning in Wasabi wallet page".

https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/issues/4125

Well, it's not exactly

By default this wallet uses a central coordinator to coinjoin, which funds a chain analysis company.

unless something happened that I missed within the last 2 months, but you should mention more about the central coordinator's decision to send inputs to a chain analysis company (which is different from receiving money from them, which AFAIK we have no knowledge of such a thing happening).

In the same way, if exchanges were listed on bitcoin.org, I would classify them - the KYC ones at least - as potentially submitting information to chain analysis companies, but you might find such a tag difficult to get merged, because Bitcoin.org doesn't really list privacy-unfriendly services like exchanges in the first place.

[o_e_l_e_o]

unless something happened that I missed within the last 2 months, but you should mention more about the central coordinator's decision to send inputs to a chain analysis company (which is different from receiving money from them, which AFAIK we have no knowledge of such a thing happening).

zkSNACKs don't receive money from a blockchain analysis company, but rather the other way around - they pay a blockchain analysis to analyze any UTXOs which are trying to be coinjoined. Various members of the Wasabi team have confirmed that this is happening.

It is entirely fair to warn users that if they use Wasabi, the fee they are paying is directly being used to fund a blockchain analysis company to investigate their UTXOs.

[NotATether]

zkSNACKs don't receive money from a blockchain analysis company, but rather the other way around - they pay a blockchain analysis to analyze any UTXOs which are trying to be coinjoined. Various members of the Wasabi team have confirmed that this is happening.

It is entirely fair to warn users that if they use Wasabi, the fee they are paying is directly being used to fund a blockchain analysis company to investigate their UTXOs.

Oh, I thought they were giving them the transactions and receiving the analysis for free. But you make sense though.

This whole thing is incredibly stupid though. Why should you pay blockchain analysis for the privilege of censoring your own users?

If that doesn't come from zksnacks' pockets, it's almost definitely being (as you said) funded by the Wasabi users.

[Pmalek]

This whole thing is incredibly stupid though. Why should you pay blockchain analysis for the privilege of censoring your own users?

They don't want users with illegally obtained bitcoin to participate in coinjoins. One of the problems is that no one (not even Wasabi or zkSNACKs) knows what isn't allowed and why. They simply trust the decisions of their blockchain analysis partner. And don't bother asking them why they do it. If you do, their forum representative will tell you the software is open-source and that they make donations to the Human Rights Foundation and the TOR project. Seeing as you are wearing the signature of a mixing service, they will throw in a few sentences about you advertising a scam and/or that you are a thief or scammer yourself. 

[BlackHatCoiner]

One of the problems is that no one (not even Wasabi or zkSNACKs) knows what isn't allowed and why. They simply trust the decisions of their blockchain analysis partner.

The irony is that nor do their blockchain partners know. Blockchain analysis is a scam. Nearly every action they take when tainting coins is evidently based on inaccurate data. And Wasabi knows about that. I refuse to believe that there is not even one Wasabi developer who has passed adultescence and reads the current Bitcoin affairs. They have deliberately bought nonsense to not risk seemed "against the government", or whatever. Haven't they realized they ignored the risk to lose legitimate Bitcoin users as clients?

If you do, their forum representative will tell you the software is open-source and that they make donations to the Human Rights Foundation and the TOR project.

They even fund the Bitcoin Core development. It's just sad how things turned out, but ignoring these little incidents like this one, means admitting defeat to blockchain scamalysis.

[DaveF]

The irony is that nor do their blockchain partners know. Blockchain analysis is a scam. Nearly every action they take when tainting coins is evidently based on inaccurate data. And Wasabi knows about that. I refuse to believe that there is not even one Wasabi developer who has passed adultescence and reads the current Bitcoin affairs. They have deliberately bought nonsense to not risk seemed "against the government", or whatever. Haven't they realized they ignored the risk to lose legitimate Bitcoin users as clients?

But....it's been discussed that they are not really targeting you and me as their clients. But rather large corporate clients. So they don't care if they loose you and me.
WE don't pay for the wallet or service. But, they are looking to or have SOLD their services to big business. Those are the paying customers. That is what they want.

Ignore everything else and just look at it as a for profit business and who they are trying to market to.
'If you use our service your coins are private and clean' so pay to use our service.
Then their attitude seems logical.

-Dave

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you do, their forum representative will tell you the software is open-source and that they make donations to the Human Rights Foundation and the TOR project.

Absolute peak whataboutism stupidity. SBF made a bunch of charitable donations too. Should we therefore excuse his mass fraud? I tell you what - if you send me 10 BTC, I'll donate 1 BTC to the HRF and keep the other 9 for myself, and that will be totally fine and not at all shady.

But, they are looking to or have SOLD their services to big business. Those are the paying customers. That is what they want.

Not just sell their services, but potentially sell the entire company: https://nitter.cz/SamouraiWallet/status/1708068554208117028#m

'If you use our service your coins are private and clean' so pay to use our service.

Except that's not true, and there are numerous examples of Wasabi coinjoins being demixed and numerous examples of centralized exchanges still discriminating against coins form Wasabi coinjoins despite their cooperation with blockchain analysis.

[Kruw]

Absolute peak whataboutism stupidity. SBF made a bunch of charitable donations too. Should we therefore excuse his mass fraud? I tell you what - if you send me 10 BTC, I'll donate 1 BTC to the HRF and keep the other 9 for myself, and that will be totally fine and not at all shady.

There's no way to commit mass fraud with coinjoining.  Coinjoins are completely non custodial.  Only "Mixing sites" are fraudulent since they are able to steal coins from their users.

Except that's not true, and there are numerous examples of Wasabi coinjoins being demixed

You are confused, only WHIRLPOOL coinjoins can be demixed.  WabiSabi coinjoins do not reveal common ownership or leave unmixable toxic change like Whirlpool:

Post the tx ID of any Whirlpool transaction and I will show you the tx0 transaction that was created by each of the new entrants.

Ok, here's one: https://mempool.space/tx/ed3131b544fbf00a71709942e483b55e629312ecb181e6e819409f419ee0d226

Where exactly is the privacy loss for new entrants, splitting a single UTXO in to multiple UTXOs to join the pool?

Okay, here's all the payments that can be tracked from the two new participants of the Whirlpool coinjoin transaction:

Entrant 1: bc1q03c0443ausjjdxl2h6ud5m8c0dux0zyg3dqdj7 created 0.00170417 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1q3fduld0l3r8nclyt5p3r7ak675tekurstn55tl.  Since this UTXO is not private, the sats were marked as unspendable and have not been recovered by the wallet owner  

Entrant 2: bc1qzc8zku26ej337huw5dlt390cy2r9kgnq7dhtys created 0.00191247 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1qjlltxr443uy236wl4xhpxlr6dgsu0zltlv3m44. This UTXO was used in a second tx0 transaction, creating a huge trail of transactions that could be traced to each other  

The 2nd tx0 transaction created 0.00076348 BTC unmixed change which was sent to bc1qehd7gy8rza9mnzm9wnfjhgw82rp47wmqt7vpgy

Since this unmixed change is below the .001 pool minimum, it was consolidated in a 3rd tx0 with 3 other addresses owned by the same wallet:
31x8GPqrhzdaxiBJa9N5UisuoxbX1rAnHa
16Gw5WKjbxZmg1zhZQs19Sf61fbV2xGujx
3LZtsJfUjiV5EZkkG1fwGEpTe2QEa7CNeY

The 3rd tx0 transaction created .00200317 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1q2p7gdtyahct8rdjs2khwf0sffl64qe896ya2y5
This was spent in a 0.00190000 payment to 3B8cRYc3W5jHeS3pkepwDePUmePBoEwyp1 (a reused address)

That payment left .00008553 in change that was tracked to 3Dh7R7xoKMVfLCcAtVDyhJ66se82twyZSn and consolidated with two other inputs in a 4th tx0 transaction:
bc1qeuh6sds8exm54yscrupdk03jxphw8qwzdtxgde
3ByChGBFshzGUE5oip8YYVEZDaCP2bcBmZ

This 4th tx0 created .00533406 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1qzh699s75smwukg9jcanwnlkmkn38r79ataagd9 which was consolidated with 3 more addresses into a 5th tx0:
3F2qiWQJKQjF7XFjEo8FUYP3AU5AC6RqX8
3HAYYVKUpYbr2ARMdZJr9yVu8xi8UcxtPz
3GQtwwRK31wwCc22q6WS5sCgixUHsG5KaT

The 5th tx0 created 0.00058494 BTC in unmixed change that was sent to bc1qvh2zjcwwkj9y70xulla2semvlav3lty0p3l3w3
This was spent in a .00047290 payment to bc1qvzg8jq6wqtr5navn4e3ps4qrkk9r6n4h98gjck

That payment left .00008411 in change that was tracked to bc1qg6j0f0wfhpktt2l8uzdn48ct3um2xyur40eyzd and consolidated with another input into a 6th tx0 transaction:
31iZLXWfoywhuMZTPGxTkpzphzh2NXshpP

The 6th tx0 created .00753775 in unmixed change that was tracked to bc1qgfll2apc27yct6h2c8r8wq4kqhxjsfrudhhn5q
This was spent in a .00737000 payment to bc1q5emzer2t0sq5dez0zsrqgh6scvwn0n24xsladp (a reused address)

This payment left 0.00010896 BTC in change which has not been spent yet, but the payment only took place 11 days ago, so I assume it will eventually be spent, allowing the Whirlpool user to be tracked even further.

[DaveF]

'If you use our service your coins are private and clean' so pay to use our service.

Except that's not true, and there are numerous examples of Wasabi coinjoins being demixed and numerous examples of centralized exchanges still discriminating against coins form Wasabi coinjoins despite their cooperation with blockchain analysis.

And I see ads for beer that tell me that if I drink their beer women will adore me and I'll be a party animal.
It's marketing good / bad / true / not true it does not matter it's marketing and people will believe what they want.

And, following that thought. The people Wasabi are marketing to can then market to their customers with the same stuff.
'Look we do this with that use our service'

-Dave

[Medusah]

There's no way to commit mass fraud with coinjoining.

I neither thought that was possible, until Wasabi literally announced they will be funding a mass surveillance company for the.. benefit of knowing who to blacklist?  If that is not dishonest towards your people, I do not know what is.

[Kruw]

I neither thought that was possible, until Wasabi literally announced they will be funding a mass surveillance company for the.. benefit of knowing who to blacklist?  If that is not dishonest towards your people, I do not know what is.

How is blacklisting in any way "dishonest"?

[Pmalek]

Not just sell their services, but potentially sell the entire company: https://nitter.cz/SamouraiWallet/status/1708068554208117028#m

You have got to love the wording there. Rejecting UTXOs that "potentially come from questionable sources." Maybe they do, maybe not, but it's not like we care so we are just going to reject it to be safe and be government-friendly.

And I see ads for beer that tell me that if I drink their beer women will adore me and I'll be a party animal.

You probably forgot your AXE body spray. It doesn't work without it.

How is blacklisting in any way "dishonest"?

Of course it isn't. How can it be when you are open-source and donating to TOR? If you do that, then it's completely fine paying a blockchain analysis company to tell you who deserves privacy and who doesn't based on no standards at all.
Now you can tell me how mixing services steal coins and sell customer data. I think it's the perfect opportunity to play that card.

[Kruw]

How is blacklisting in any way "dishonest"?

Of course it isn't. How can it be when you are open-source and donating to TOR? If you do that, then it's completely fine paying a blockchain analysis company to tell you who deserves privacy and who doesn't based on no standards at all.
Now you can tell me how mixing services steal coins and sell customer data. I think it's the perfect opportunity to play that card.

Acting sarcastic doesn't answer my question.  It just makes you look bitter.

If your arguments are reduced to sarcasm, then I've made my point effectively.

[BlackHatCoiner]

How is blacklisting in any way "dishonest"?

Wasabi project started as the "only chance" for Bitcoin to achieve fungibility. The same team is currently implementing blacklisting and providing funding for a company that belongs to a group of companies that likely pose the most significant threat to Bitcoin's future as a currency. The same team is engaging in doxxing their competitors on Twitter, while their software having a wide range of issues that have been extensively discussed in the Wasabi thread, and which are ignored by the people in charge.

These are rhetorical questions.

Acting sarcastic doesn't answer my question.  It just makes you look bitter.

At the first time. At the 100th time, sarcasm is the most deserved response.

[Kruw]

How is blacklisting in any way "dishonest"?

Wasabi project started as the "only chance" for Bitcoin to achieve fungibility. The same team is currently implementing blacklisting and providing funding for a company that belongs to a group of companies that likely pose the most significant threat to Bitcoin's future as a currency. The same team is engaging in doxxing their competitors on Twitter, while their software having a wide range of issues that have been extensively discussed in the Wasabi thread, and which are ignored by the people in charge.

These are rhetorical questions.

Those aren't questions at all, you just made a bunch of blatantly false statements, you didn't even bother to be sarcastic. Wasabi does not have a "wide range of issues" and their team is not "engaging in doxxing their competitors on Twitter".

The coinjoin protocol you are thinking of that has a "wide range of issues" that was covered extensively in the Wasabi thread is WHIRLPOOL, which is used by Samourai Wallet and Sparrow Wallet:

Post the tx ID of any Whirlpool transaction and I will show you the tx0 transaction that was created by each of the new entrants.

Ok, here's one: https://mempool.space/tx/ed3131b544fbf00a71709942e483b55e629312ecb181e6e819409f419ee0d226

Where exactly is the privacy loss for new entrants, splitting a single UTXO in to multiple UTXOs to join the pool?

Okay, here's all the payments that can be tracked from the two new participants of the Whirlpool coinjoin transaction:

Entrant 1: bc1q03c0443ausjjdxl2h6ud5m8c0dux0zyg3dqdj7 created 0.00170417 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1q3fduld0l3r8nclyt5p3r7ak675tekurstn55tl.  Since this UTXO is not private, the sats were marked as unspendable and have not been recovered by the wallet owner  

Entrant 2: bc1qzc8zku26ej337huw5dlt390cy2r9kgnq7dhtys created 0.00191247 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1qjlltxr443uy236wl4xhpxlr6dgsu0zltlv3m44. This UTXO was used in a second tx0 transaction, creating a huge trail of transactions that could be traced to each other  

The 2nd tx0 transaction created 0.00076348 BTC unmixed change which was sent to bc1qehd7gy8rza9mnzm9wnfjhgw82rp47wmqt7vpgy

Since this unmixed change is below the .001 pool minimum, it was consolidated in a 3rd tx0 with 3 other addresses owned by the same wallet:
31x8GPqrhzdaxiBJa9N5UisuoxbX1rAnHa
16Gw5WKjbxZmg1zhZQs19Sf61fbV2xGujx
3LZtsJfUjiV5EZkkG1fwGEpTe2QEa7CNeY

The 3rd tx0 transaction created .00200317 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1q2p7gdtyahct8rdjs2khwf0sffl64qe896ya2y5
This was spent in a 0.00190000 payment to 3B8cRYc3W5jHeS3pkepwDePUmePBoEwyp1 (a reused address)

That payment left .00008553 in change that was tracked to 3Dh7R7xoKMVfLCcAtVDyhJ66se82twyZSn and consolidated with two other inputs in a 4th tx0 transaction:
bc1qeuh6sds8exm54yscrupdk03jxphw8qwzdtxgde
3ByChGBFshzGUE5oip8YYVEZDaCP2bcBmZ

This 4th tx0 created .00533406 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1qzh699s75smwukg9jcanwnlkmkn38r79ataagd9 which was consolidated with 3 more addresses into a 5th tx0:
3F2qiWQJKQjF7XFjEo8FUYP3AU5AC6RqX8
3HAYYVKUpYbr2ARMdZJr9yVu8xi8UcxtPz
3GQtwwRK31wwCc22q6WS5sCgixUHsG5KaT

The 5th tx0 created 0.00058494 BTC in unmixed change that was sent to bc1qvh2zjcwwkj9y70xulla2semvlav3lty0p3l3w3
This was spent in a .00047290 payment to bc1qvzg8jq6wqtr5navn4e3ps4qrkk9r6n4h98gjck

That payment left .00008411 in change that was tracked to bc1qg6j0f0wfhpktt2l8uzdn48ct3um2xyur40eyzd and consolidated with another input into a 6th tx0 transaction:
31iZLXWfoywhuMZTPGxTkpzphzh2NXshpP

The 6th tx0 created .00753775 in unmixed change that was tracked to bc1qgfll2apc27yct6h2c8r8wq4kqhxjsfrudhhn5q
This was spent in a .00737000 payment to bc1q5emzer2t0sq5dez0zsrqgh6scvwn0n24xsladp (a reused address)

This payment left 0.00010896 BTC in change which has not been spent yet, but the payment only took place 11 days ago, so I assume it will eventually be spent, allowing the Whirlpool user to be tracked even further.

Wasabi upgraded to the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol so no unmixable change is ever produced and common input is not revealed.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I would suggest not engaging with Kruw and allowing him to derail yet another thread with his repeatedly debunked copy-and-paste nonsense. I've debunked the same post he has copy and pasted above multiple times over the last several months:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62413682#msg62413682
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5465398.msg62800032#msg62800032

The fact that he continues to post it when it is blatantly false, means either he doesn't understand anything about coinjoins or he knows what he is posting is a complete lie. Either way, he is not interested in discussion and only in pushing his agenda.

I've had him on ignore for months; I suggest everyone else does the same:

It's been clear for some time now that Kruw is either incapable or unwilling to address the vast myriad of valid points made against Wasabi in this thread, and instead can only result to copious amounts of hand-waving and whataboutism. Furthermore, it's also clear that Kruw either does not understand how Whirlpool and JoinMarket work, or he does understand but deliberate lies about them to spread his narrative.

Either way, although I'll continue to point out to other users in this thread all the reasons they should avoid Wasabi, there is no point continuing to argue with Kruw.

Anyone who wants to see the truth about Wasabi coinjoins being demixed, Wasabi doxxing their competitors, and Wasabi funding mass surveillance, can simply read the Wasabi thread. Any time he copies and pastes the same old nonsense again, just reply with a link to this post.

Back on topic here: It is entirely fair to warn people that zkSNACKs are directly funding the enemy.