Petition to remove Wasabi from recommendations of bitcoin.org

[BlackHatCoiner]

"Lots of people in Twitter" doesn't sound like proof to me.

What is acceptable as proof to you?

Peter Todd is talking about OUTPUTS being reused in coinjoins

He talks about both inputs and outputs. For the former gives an example of an entity which has received multiple donations in the same address (and which I agree with), and for the latter when an entity wants to make multiple donations to the same address (which besides unusual, is just not what the front end displays as an option). There are quite a few reports of Wasabi reusing receiving addresses when automatically coinjoining, and none of the victims wanted to donate (otherwise they wouldn't report it as a bug).

BTW, why do you keep posting this video? Peter is also okay with Wasabi censoring inputs as he says. Being a Bitcoin Core developer doesn't grant you any ethic superiority. He's sponsored by Wasabi, and is being paid by Wasabi. Why isn't he considered a "shill" like you claim us to be with mixers?

[Kruw]

What is acceptable as proof to you?

A deterministic way to link inputs to outputs for users who are not a "whale" relative to the other participants in the round.

He talks about both inputs and outputs. For the former gives an example of an entity which has received multiple donations in the same address (and which I agree with), and for the latter when an entity wants to make multiple donations to the same address (which besides unusual, is just not what the front end displays as an option). There are quite a few reports of Wasabi reusing receiving addresses when automatically coinjoining, and none of the victims wanted to donate (otherwise they wouldn't report it as a bug).

The quote I mentioned has nothing to do with inputs or donations, Peter Todd explains that when you use a deterministic seed on two different clients, they will each generate and use the same addresses:

That's not Wasabi fucking up, that's Wasabi users fucking up.  Wasabi, they fundamentally, are not in a position where they can go and prevent people from installing the same seed in multiple wallets at once and using it in multiple wallets at once.

Being a Bitcoin Core developer doesn't grant you any ethic superiority. He's sponsored by Wasabi, and is being paid by Wasabi. Why isn't he considered a "shill" like you claim us to be with mixers?

Peter Todd is not sponsored by Wasabi or paid by Wasabi.  Even if he was, it wouldn't make his statement any less true.  You are resorting to yet another lie in order to cover up your previous lie, it really makes you look pathetic and desperate to convince people to have their coins stolen again by another one of your "Mixing sites".

[BlackHatCoiner]

A deterministic way to link inputs to outputs for users who are not a "whale" relative to the other participants in the round.

There is KYCP which has analyzed quite a few Wasabi coinjoins and has found a bunch of weaknesses regarding collaboration and address reuse (in both inputs and outputs!), such as this one. What is your input on this?

The quote I mentioned has nothing to do with inputs or donations, Peter Todd explains that when you use a deterministic seed on two different clients, they will each generate and use the same addresses

How's that relevant with the coordinator allowing address reuse and the other weaknesses during coinjoin that are presented above?

Peter Todd is not sponsored by Wasabi or paid by Wasabi.

Wasabi funds a bunch of activities Peter Todd is involved in.

[Kruw]

There is KYCP which has analyzed quite a few Wasabi coinjoins and has found a bunch of weaknesses regarding collaboration and address reuse (in both inputs and outputs!), such as this one. What is your input on this?

BlackHatCoiner, didn't you hear Peter Todd?  https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162

That's not Wasabi fucking up, that's Wasabi users fucking up.  Wasabi, they fundamentally, are not in a position where they can go and prevent people from installing the same seed in multiple wallets at once and using it in multiple wallets at once.

How's that relevant with the coordinator allowing address reuse

Why would the coordinator disallow address reuse?...

and the other weaknesses during coinjoin that are presented above?

What "other weaknesses" are you talking about?

[BlackHatCoiner]

I see. Repeating the soundbites. Alright, I'll take this as a "I cannot answer any of your questions".

BlackHatCoiner, didn't you hear Peter Todd?  https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162

That's not Wasabi fucking up, that's Wasabi users fucking up.  Wasabi, they fundamentally, are not in a position where they can go and prevent people from installing the same seed in multiple wallets at once and using it in multiple wallets at once.

Wasabi users fucking up with their anonymity individually isn't Wasabi's fault. But, coordinator fucking up with users' anonymity is a Wasabi's fault. Wasabi transactions listed in KYCP (except the post-mix tx) are all coinjoin, ergo approved by the coordinator.

Why would the coordinator disallow address reuse?...

I mean, if you can't tell the problem with reusing addresses in both inputs and outputs during coinjoin, then I'll just leave it here. I give up. As it turns out, you can't beat an idiot.

[Kruw]

I see. Repeating the soundbites. Alright, I'll take this as a "I cannot answer any of your questions".

I answered your question over and over already: Someone reusing their addresses is not a "flaw in coinjoins".  A coinjoin makes it possible to move money privately from one address to another.  If someone moves money from one address to the same address, that's not a flaw in the coinjoin.

Bitcoin experts like Peter Todd recognize this, but for some reason you still are miseducating people by telling them the opposite and accusing Peter Todd of being paid off with no evidence.  You really ruined your reputation by attacking open source Bitcoin privacy software with accusations of being flawed and attacking open source Bitcoin Core developers with accusations of them being corrupt.  It's truly despicable that you resort to wrongfully accusing innocent people and innocent projects in order to get people to lose their money to your custodian sites.  Find a new way to make money besides stealing it.

Wasabi users fucking up with their anonymity individually isn't Wasabi's fault. But, coordinator fucking up with users' anonymity is a Wasabi's fault. Wasabi transactions listed in KYCP (except the post-mix tx) are all coinjoin, ergo approved by the coordinator.

If you think that the coordinator's service can be improved, then why don't you run your own coordinator?  All the software is open source.

and the other weaknesses during coinjoin that are presented above?

What "other weaknesses" are you talking about?

No response I see.  There are no weaknesses in WabiSabi coinjoins, you can't defeat total privacy: https://mempool.space/tx/d465033214fd2309dcce5a90c45fcaa788aa4394ee36debe07aad8d8a37907d2

[PrivacyG]

Your urge to twist his words is nearly impressive. Nowhere has he stated that "2 outputs" make you untraceable. What he's argued is that it's impossible to know if the bitcoin changes hands, so it is absolutely unacceptable to base evidence on blockchain analysis.

That doesn't mean that you're "untraceable" (nowhere has he stated that in the quoted post). He merely said that it is impossible to know with confidence if the money changes hands, because blockchain analysis (which you're proudly funding) is flawed.

Right.  But you forget something.  Kruw thinks Blockchain Analysis has God like properties and is somehow indisputable.  It does not matter that I and o_e_l_e_o can swap Private Keys privately and if o_e_l_e_o has done something dirty the Blockchain Analysis puts ME on the Black List thinking it was me who did it.

To Wasabi this is impossible to dispute.  It shows that only two Transactions ago my Address made a drug deal so it HAD to be me.  How dare you even think Blockchain Analysis gives inaccurate results and is only guess work!  You big Privacy enemy!

-----

I'm happy that you like Monero, but a thread for Bitcoin privacy technology is the absolute worst place you could be shilling it.  It shows you are more interested in hurting Bitcoin than promoting privacy because you can already be private on Bitcoin with WabiSabi coinjoins.

You are actively spitting in Moneros face denying that Monero <> Bitcoin Atomic Swaps are a way to Privacy even if it is one of the best options we have,

XMR swaps aren't "Bitcoin privacy technology"

Just like spitting into Samourais face, into Join Markets face and into the face of every single Bitcoin Talk member who complains about your Surveillance supportive product.

Forget o_e_l_e_o has a long history of avidly supporting your product.  Forget pretty much every body here used to support it.  Now we are Privacy enemies.  Forget we all came here to constructively complain and help Wasabi return to their old track.

The Wasabi team is acting like some sort of Prophets.  We are all now enemies to Wasabi because they are our enemy.

To Wasabi team.  You are a disgrace.

-----

I want you to admit you heard Peter Todd tell you that address reuse is not Wasabi fucking up and then I want you to explain why you are still attacking open source Bitcoin privacy software by spreading the lie that there is "evidence" of "flawed coinjoins".

We also want you to answer all the unanswered questions.  But you never do.  Ironically, we could all start doing the same and skip every question.  This topic is already a hell hole.  Imagine what it would be like if every body acted the same way you do and dodged every single legitimate question and replied with deceiving statements and word twisting.

If you want an artsy discussion, some sort of contest of word twists and deception, then just fuck off straight to the Off Topic board.  Either we all have a legitimate discussion or act with maximum stupidity.

-----

Imagine Wasabi was a billion Dollar drink company and they acted this way about a hated change in their product line.  How dare you NOT like our new recipe!  Fuck off!  We are the BEST, you are all paid by competition!  Hmph!

[o_e_l_e_o]

So, just to clarify:

A user creates a small change output using Samourai. Samourai clearly displays this change output before the transaction is signed, and gives the user ample opportunity to change it if they want. The user is happy with the size of the change output and goes ahead with the transaction. This change output is deliberately segregated in to a different account and so no privacy is lost. According to Kruw, this is a critical flaw in Samourai: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5471645.msg63134894#msg63134894

A user reuses an address on both sides of a Wasabi coinjoin. Outputs from the coinjoin land on the exact same address as the inputs they came from, resulting in a complete and critical loss of privacy. According to Kruw, this is all the users fault and has nothing to do with Wasabi.

Lol. The double standards are off the charts.

You are actively spitting in Moneros face denying that Monero <> Bitcoin Atomic Swaps are a way to Privacy even if it is one of the best options we have

According to Kruw:
Samourai - doesn't work
Sparrow - doesn't work
Whirlpool - doesn't work
JoinMarket - doesn't work
Jam - doesn't work
Monero - doesn't work
Atomic swaps - don't work
P2P swaps/trades - don't work
Mixers - don't work

Wasabi - perfect, infallible

Isn't it amazing how thousands of developers of dozens of different privacy projects are all so incredibly wrong, and only the pro-surveillance, pro-censorship, pro-government sell outs are the ones who got it right.

To Wasabi team.  You are a disgrace.

By directly funding blockchain analysis, by directly supporting and spreading the concept of tainted coins, by attacking bitcoin's fungibility, and by censoring users, Wasabi are aiding and abetting the government take over of bitcoin. This kind of malicious behavior is now spreading to mining pools, which are using the exact same logic and methods as Wasabi to censor transactions from their blocks entirely. Soon enough, only government approved transactions will be allowed to me mined at all. We are marching down the road to bitcoin becoming a government permissioned network, and Wasabi are leading the charge.

Wasabi are enemies of bitcoin.

For this reason, bitcoin.org should completely scrub all traces of Wasabi from the site.

[Kruw]

So, just to clarify:

A user creates a small change output using Samourai. Samourai clearly displays this change output before the transaction is signed, and gives the user ample opportunity to change it if they want. The user is happy with the size of the change output and goes ahead with the transaction.

So, just to clarify:  

You do not create "change outputs" with WabiSabi, your entire balance is turned completely private so you do not ever reveal two addresses belong to you.

This change output is deliberately segregated in to a different account and so no privacy is lost.

You are lying.  Changing the derivation path of Whirlpool's change output doesn't improve its privacy.

A user reuses an address on both sides of a Wasabi coinjoin. Outputs from the coinjoin land on the exact same address as the inputs they came from, resulting in a complete and critical loss of privacy. According to Kruw, this is all the users fault and has nothing to do with Wasabi.

You mean "According to Peter Todd":  https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162

You continue to dodge the fact that Bitcoin experts have already debunked this false claim and continue to attack open source Bitcoin privacy software.

According to Kruw:
Samourai - doesn't work
Sparrow - doesn't work
Whirlpool - doesn't work
JoinMarket - doesn't work
Jam - doesn't work
Monero - doesn't work
Atomic swaps - don't work
P2P swaps/trades - don't work
Mixers - don't work

Wasabi - perfect, infallible

Isn't it amazing how thousands of developers of dozens of different privacy projects are all so incredibly wrong, and only the pro-surveillance, pro-censorship, pro-government sell outs are the ones who got it right.

Joinmarket, Jam, and Monero do work for privacy.  Stop trying to whitewash Samourai/Sparrow's Whirlpool and your "mixing site" scams by putting them alongside working privacy projects like Joinmarket, Jam, and Monero.

[o_e_l_e_o]

your entire balance is turned completely private so you do not ever reveal two addresses belong to you.

You only need to reveal one address when it used on both sides of the transaction.

You mean "According to Peter Todd":  https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162

I still haven't figured out what you think you are achieving by constantly appealing to authority.

You continue to dodge the fact that Bitcoin experts have already debunked this false claim and continue to attack open source Bitcoin privacy software.

Argue semantics and evade the questions all you want. It's quite clear no one here is attacking open source software nor privacy software. They are attacking Wasabi, which is categorically not privacy software.

Joinmarket, Jam, and Monero do work for privacy.

Oh, so Monero isn't a shitcoin anymore? I just can't keep up with your goalposts.

[Kruw]

You mean "According to Peter Todd":  https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162

I still haven't figured out what you think you are achieving by constantly appealing to authority.

I didn't need to appeal to authority the first time I explained to you that address reuse was caused by people using deterministic seeds on two different devices:

Because Wasabi wallet automatically picks addresses?

If a JoinMarket user picks a reused address to send a coinjoin output to, that's their fault.
If a Wasabi client automatically picks a reused address to send a coinjoin output to with zero input or even awareness from the user, that's Wasabi's fault.

And what exactly do you think happens when you use the same seed on multiple clients?  Here's your answer:

https://medium.com/@thepiratewhocantbenamed/samourai-wallet-address-reuse-bug-1d64d311983d
https://twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1283145015124996098
https://twitter.com/brian_trollz/status/1559018534675644418

Step 1 - Get shown blockchain evidence of Wasabi address reuse
Step 2 - Ignore said evidence
Step 3 - Ask for the evidence you've just ignored
Step 4 - Go to Step 1

We just agreed that address reuse is not a "critical flaw" since it can be done in any implementation like my Joinmarket and Samourai examples, and it can't be avoided by a client if a user has the same seed generating addresses asynchronously on multiple clients.

I'm asking you directly: What is wrong with the WabiSabi coinjoin implementation?  I told you exactly what was wrong with the Whirlpool coinjoin implementation and then I deanonymized the very first Whirlpool transaction ID you provided using the flaws I described, why can't you deanonymize any WabiSabi coinjoins?

Now Peter Todd has given you the exact same explanation.  Didn't you hear him? Are you going to accuse Peter Todd of being corrupt and paid off like BlackHatCoiner did? Or, will you finally stop attacking open source Bitcoin privacy projects and admit there isn't a "flaw" like you claimed?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Or, will you finally stop attacking open source Bitcoin privacy projects and admit there isn't a "flaw" like you claimed?

Just lol.

You've had the same things explained to you dozens of times by multiple users over many months. Your continued lies and denial of facts is simply evidence of your malicious intent to drive bitcoin to a government controlled system.

Wasabi is the enemy.

[Kruw]

You've had the same things explained to you dozens of times by multiple users over many months.

Had what explained?  Provide quotes.  No one ever provided a single flaw in WabiSabi coinjoins, multiple users have merely been repeating your debunked report of "address reuse".

Your continued lies and denial of facts is simply evidence of your malicious intent to drive bitcoin to a government controlled system.

Fact:  If you use a deterministic seed on two different devices, they will generate and use the same exact addresses.

Fact:  Wasabi is open source software, it's not government controlled, it's user controlled.

Wasabi is the enemy.

It's clear you have no issue lying to defeat "the enemy" by making false claims about flaws existing in open source privacy software.  Fortunately, Bitcoin privacy experts such as Peter Todd directly addressed your lies about address reuse: https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162

That's not Wasabi fucking up, that's Wasabi users fucking up.  Wasabi, they fundamentally, are not in a position where they can go and prevent people from installing the same seed in multiple wallets at once and using it in multiple wallets at once.

[Wind_FURY]

Or, will you finally stop attacking open source Bitcoin privacy projects and admit there isn't a "flaw" like you claimed?

Just lol.

You've had the same things explained to you dozens of times by multiple users over many months. Your continued lies and denial of facts is simply evidence of your malicious intent to drive bitcoin to a government controlled system.

Wasabi is the enemy.

If WasabiWallet is the enemy, then I believe all of those CoinJoin services could be the enemy.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We can't point one finger to one entity without thinking that there are other entities that possibly could be working with them.

Isn't there an update for the Lightning Network that makes it impossible to distinguish between a regular Bitcoin transaction and a transaction that opens a Lightning channel? That could be a solution to help preserve Bitcoin's fungibility.

🤔

[BlackHatCoiner]

We can't point one finger to one entity without thinking that there are other entities that possibly could be working with them.

Um. What kind of twisted reasoning is this? Just because one such entity is funding blockchain analysis, it doesn't mean we have to treat everyone as guilty until proven otherwise. Everyone's innocent, until they are known to be working with the enemy.

Isn't there an update for the Lightning Network that makes it impossible to distinguish between a regular Bitcoin transaction and a transaction that opens a Lightning channel? That could be a solution to help preserve Bitcoin's fungibility.

There are a host variety of solutions for fungibility, from lightning and Schnorr signatures to not using coinjoin and mixing services which buy taint.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If WasabiWallet is the enemy, then I believe all of those CoinJoin services could be the enemy.

Anyone could be the enemy. The coinjoin service which is pro-government, pro-censorship, and pro-surveillance is the enemy.

We can't point one finger to one entity without thinking that there are other entities that possibly could be working with them.

You mean like Wasabi working with blockchain analysis companies? I would consider both of those enemies of bitcoin.

[Synchronice]

You should know by now not to listen to o_e_l_e_o, he will say any lie necessary about open source privacy software in order to trick people into losing their money to a custodian instead.  There is no "flaw", stop FUDing and start verifying:

He doesn't say that the code of Wasabi's open-source software is bad, he says that it's bad to use Wasabi's coordinator because you partner with BA companies. If I run my own coordinator without partnering BA analysis companies and won't filter transactions, then yes, problem will be solved. No one says that the open-source of project is bad. I think it's clear what's the issue here and why do you pretend like there doesn't exist any issue. Move away from BA companies and no one will complain anything about Wasabi if it remains open-source and transparent.

[Kruw]

He doesn't say that the code of Wasabi's open-source software is bad, he says that it's bad to use Wasabi's coordinator because you partner with BA companies. If I run my own coordinator without partnering BA analysis companies and won't filter transactions, then yes, problem will be solved. No one says that the open-source of project is bad. I think it's clear what's the issue here and why do you pretend like there doesn't exist any issue. Move away from BA companies and no one will complain anything about Wasabi if it remains open-source and transparent.

No, o_e_l_e_o has been lying about the privacy of Wasabi regardless of which coordinator you use:

I never said it was. I'm just pointing out that even without a coordinator which directly funds blockchain analysis, Wasabi is still useless.

Instead of telling them what to do, show them how it's done the right way. Why not fork the coordinator and have it accept all transactions.

Because as I've shown above, the Wasabi wallet software itself is deeply flawed and reuses addresses on both sides of coinjoin transactions. Why fork flawed software in order to launch your own coordinator to bypass the anti-fungibility and anti-privacy ethos of Wasabi/zkSNACKs, when I can just use JoinMarket or Samourai with my own node which avoid all these issues in the first place.

Still, why would I go through the effort of setting up a coordinator, having zero volume, trying to entice people to my coordinator, all so I can run inferior coinjoins with suffer from address reuse and identifiable outputs, when I can just run JoinMarket instead?

He's not just attacking Wasabi either, he's opposed to ANY open source software that allows you to coinjoin with full privacy:

Wasabi, BTCPay Server, or Trezor.

Thanks for alerting me that BTCPay is also now a supporter of mass surveillance and blockchain analysis. Another company to forever cross off my list of recommendations.

[PrivacyG]

XMR swaps aren't "Bitcoin privacy technology"

() and Monero do work for privacy.  Stop trying to whitewash Samourai/Sparrow () by putting them alongside working privacy projects like () Monero.

WabiSabi solves the flaws of other coinjoin implementations.

Joinmarket, () and () do work for privacy.  Stop trying to whitewash Samourai/Sparrow () by putting them alongside working privacy projects like Joinmarket ()

What in the dystopia is this!

-----

If WasabiWallet is the enemy, then I believe all of those CoinJoin services could be the enemy.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We can't point one finger to one entity without thinking that there are other entities that possibly could be working with them.

For all we know, you could be the biggest serial killer.  Why point one finger to one serial killer without thinking that there are other serial killers that possibly could be roaming free?

With this mind set we can all give up on every thing.  Including Bitcoin.  Who knows the REAL reason Bitcoin was invented for!  Maybe we will only live to find out and it will be too late by then!  But what if it was not.

-----

What we are doing now is trying to hold on to the entities who SEEM not to work with our enemies.  Many of them will give up.  Many of them will collaborate with the enemy.  All we have left is hope and a few who still did not give up or trait us.

Does any of us have 100 percent belief that any of the Mixers available today is 100 percent clean and working for the people and not against the people?  I do not.  And I think it is foolish to resort to trust.  I only think by combining the diverse ways of Privacy we do get to a point where it is almost impossible to assimilate enough information to link the Bitcoin I had before with the Mixed, Coin Joined, Atomic Swapped Bitcoin.  Maybe the Mixer we used was a honey pot.  Alright.  But then we have two more spoofing techniques that are strong and build strong Privacy for our Coins.

For all we know, our Privacy is ruined already no matter what we do.  We could be trying our hardest to gain Privacy while there could be publicly unknown technology ruining it even with the best Coin Joins available.  Maybe there is a server underground that records and transcribes every single word and sound I have ever made into an immense record.  That does not mean I will ever give up based on assumptions only.

Wasabi has proved us and our suspicions right.  They DO work with the biggest Bitcoin Privacy enemy.  We are witnessing an entity who is trying to convince us that our enemy is our friend.  Either we continue declining to work with entities like Wasabi or we start losing the battle.  If the supposedly largest Bitcoin Privacy supporter says there is good and bad Bitcoin and we agree then we are screwed!  So is Bitcoin!

It means from tomorrow on we can start separating the Bitcoins we have into two sides, one of them worth less than the other!  It means we are never going to have the freedom Bitcoin was to give us.  Because if Wasabi starts pushing a Tainted Bitcoin narrative giving false hope for real Privacy and the most Privacy oriented users agree with them, the average user of Bitcoin will be much easier to fool.

Do not give up and do not treat every fighter as a traitor.  Wasabi showed they are traitors.  Join Market has not yet.  Monero has not yet.  Who the hell knows who falls next, but as long as we have even ONE alternative there is still hope!

[BlackHatCoiner]

He doesn't say that the code of Wasabi's open-source software is bad, he says that it's bad to use Wasabi's coordinator because you partner with BA companies.

Both are true. Yes, Wasabi is partnering with blockchain analysis company and buying the notion that coins are unequal, so they cannot be trusted. And yes, their software is flawed. I don't know with certainty if it's more of a back end or front end issue (probably both), but we frequently notice coinjoin reusing addresses in both inputs and outputs.

Here's another reason for not trusting Wasabi folks: they are assholes. Kruw has accused nearly every participant of a mixer signature campaign as guilty for coin theft with absolutely no evidence. nopara73 is doxxing their competitors on Twitter. Max Hillebrand is one big of a hypocrite. Any sane person reading the open letter to Wasabi team can make out they're running a clown show.