Ouch, today someone made a transaction with over $500k fee.

[o_e_l_e_o]

F2Pool owner is now asking the community what they should do with the funds: https://nitter.cz/satofishi/status/1702095123981738437#m

Given how much PayPal are more than happy to screw over regular people for literally no reason whatsoever, I have no strong feelings either way what happens here.

do transactions like in this thread when a person mistakenly paid higher fees without knowing about it will get refund from miners?

No. You rely entirely on the good will of the mining pool operator, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to refund the fees.

or when the transaction is verified by an unknown miner then how can anyone will request for a refund and where will he find that unknown miner?

You can't, unless you can look at the address they received the block reward to and somehow track them down from that.

what if the miner denied to pay the refund? like if we lost our money then we can complaint to police, is there any authority in this type of case?

You can't contact the police because the miner did not steal anything. They simply mined your transaction, the fee of which you chose. If you chose the wrong fee, then that's your fault.

do the huge mistakenly sent transaction fee also shared between every miner of that pool?

Up to the pool operator, but generally yes.

[Synchronice]

Of course, this is not carelessness and negligence at all. Have to be blind or mentally retarded (I didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or offend) for the sender to make such a mistake with the numbers. A person dealing with bitcoin is probably not one of them, if sender managed to figure out how it works.

It's hilarious that people who don't know how to save money, people who make such mistakes, are millionaires.

For likers of alternative versions. It could also be a way to launder money! Bitcoin pull will later return most of the btc fees clean and fresh mined bitcoins. Why not, right?

No, that would be the dumbest thing to do, even dumber than this mistake. This transaction gained a huge attention, right? So, if the person wanted to launder money, why would he/she make a transaction that would cause such a big attention? Now everyone knows about this transaction. Personally, I exclude that it was done for laundering.

F2Pool owner is now asking the community what they should do with the funds: https://nitter.cz/satofishi/status/1702095123981738437#m

Given how much PayPal are more than happy to screw over regular people for literally no reason whatsoever, I have no strong feelings either way what happens here.

There was a very interesting comment on that post that I want to quote:

If it's 100% verified that it was them and it was a clear mistake (which seems pretty obvious), then I'd avoid any civil disputes. Although, the neutrality of the network could be called to question in the future. I think a 50/50 split shows miner good faith while also punishing the mistake. It should be made clear that this is an act of kindness, not obligation, extended by the miners.

[decodx]

F2Pool owner is now asking the community what they should do with the funds: https://nitter.cz/satofishi/status/1702095123981738437#m

Given how much PayPal are more than happy to screw over regular people for literally no reason whatsoever, I have no strong feelings either way what happens here.

So is it PayPal or Paxos? According to a Cointelegraph article, Paxos admitted that they screwed up the transaction. But don't worry, they can just "print" more Pax dollars to cover the loss! 

[cafter]

F2Pool owner is now asking the community what they should do with the funds: https://nitter.cz/satofishi/status/1702095123981738437#m

Given how much PayPal are more than happy to screw over regular people for literally no reason whatsoever, I have no strong feelings either way what happens here.

So is it PayPal or Paxos? According to a Cointelegraph article, Paxos admitted that they screwed up the transaction. But don't worry, they can just "print" more Pax dollars to cover the loss! 

He taken an example of paypal, means something paypal is doing with people is way bad than those 19BTC or 500K.
I also didn't know what paypal is doing that is not good. can you please tell us what you are talking about paypal @o_e_l_e_o?

[nelson4lov]

I doubt it's an act of carelessness, anyone with that kind of a balance would at least know how and where to input the appropriate fees. It could be a way to donate a large sum to the bitcoin miners.

Here's a tx from 2016 that paid a 291.24 btc fee: https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/cc455ae816e6cdafdb58d54e35d4f46d860047458eacf1c7405dc634631c570d this fee was worth 130k USD at that time as the BTC price was close to $441. Looking back now, this fee is worth 7.5m USD.

It might be a honest mistake maybe the user in question was in a hurry and didn't confirm all inputs to the transactions. For all we know, both cases might have been a mistake because I doubt the possibility of someone paying that much when the value being sent out is around 3/100 of the gas fee?  It can happen to anybody this is why it's a recommended practice to strictly verify all inputs before a transactions is sent out and broadcasted to a network.

Edit: Paxos have confirmed that they did the transaction and that it was a mistake: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crypto-miners-debate-500k-bitcoin-063851495.html

Although they didn't disclose how it happened, my best guess  is that they made the transaction programmatically rather than a manual input.

[franky1]

sounds like paypal owned funds stored in paxos, where paypal wanted to withdraw small amount from paxos, but paxos(the withdrawal service) sent out the small withdrawal amount but using a large utxo without using a change address for remaining unspent output balance

[philipma1957]

sounds like paypal owned funds stored in paxos, where paypal wanted to withdraw small amount from paxos, but paxos(the withdrawal service) sent out the small withdrawal amount but using a large utxo without using a change address for remaining unspent output balance

yep.

f2pool should upcharge at least 2 coins.

 i am in a very small pool that hits a block every 2 or 3 years.

I usually get 40% of the block and fees.

So 6+19=25 x 40% is 10 coins. about 7.2 would be the extra fee.

the other two miners in this pool would get

12 and 3 coins

pool is set up to auto send when block is hit so I would handle the ten coins. about 7.2 should go back to them.

but I would have to get a lawyer and special tax letters so That the irs does not try to tax the 7.2 I return.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Personally, I exclude that it was done for laundering.

The transaction was broadcast publicly. It absolutely was not done for money laundering purposes.

I also didn't know what paypal is doing that is not good. can you please tell us what you are talking about paypal @o_e_l_e_o?

You can find thousands of examples of people having their accounts frozen and money seized while PayPal provide zero reasons why and also provide zero assistance. There was also the big issue recently where they changed their terms to allow them to confiscate users' money if those users said anything online that PayPal disagrees with: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416501.0


But anyway, the money has been refunded to Paxos: https://mempool.space/tx/1b9adb2878fce5cd1b6a11a011e3965f904829228d57cf90ca6731cd501890c6

[AHOYBRAUSE]

Edit: Paxos have confirmed that they did the transaction and that it was a mistake: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crypto-miners-debate-500k-bitcoin-063851495.html

I was wondering if the story of who actually did this will have come to light and here we have it.
Actually I am relieved that it wasn't a private person that didn't lose all their saving because of such a silly mistake because this could ruin you.
I also made costly mistakes years ago that still haunt me sometimes but something in this range would just devastating!

[Synchronice]

sounds like paypal owned funds stored in paxos, where paypal wanted to withdraw small amount from paxos, but paxos(the withdrawal service) sent out the small withdrawal amount but using a large utxo without using a change address for remaining unspent output balance

That's actually what happened and as I was expecting, Paxos said: This only impacted Paxos corporate operations, Paxos clients and end users have not been affected and all customer funds are safe.^[source]
They can't take care of their funds but they can take care of our funds, this sounds so funny.

By the way, if I were F2Pool owner, I wouldn't refund transaction fees to Paxos. If it was a random guy, okay, I would be kind but financial institutes like PayPal and its partner Paxos, they deserve to pay for their mistakes. There is absolutely no reason for F2Pool to refund, who is here to determine whether that fee was a mistake or not? The fact is, you are the one who chooses to pay fees. I can make a transaction with $1000 fee and then cry and ask for refund, I can make a transaction with $10 fee and do the same. Also, the result of Twitter vote was Distribute it to miners.

Personally, I exclude that it was done for laundering.

The transaction was broadcast publicly. It absolutely was not done for money laundering purposes.

Yes, that's what I am saying. It wasn't done for money laundering purpose because not only it was broadcasted publicly, absolutely every person would understand that such a huge mining fees would attract everyone's attention and would make the transaction one of the most known one, blockchain is a public book of transactions after all.

[FatFork]

But anyway, the money has been refunded to Paxos: https://mempool.space/tx/1b9adb2878fce5cd1b6a11a011e3965f904829228d57cf90ca6731cd501890c6

It's such a weird thing to witness a transaction of this magnitude with a big fat zero fee attached to it. Take that, PayPal! 

[yazher]

This is actually one of the very best definitions of shit happens. We all know how people can be dumb in the crypto industry when they don't realize what they are about to do and this is one example of it. that's why we always recommend people take preventive measures in order to save them from these kinds of accidents and there is no turning back with this because there is no undo in the Bitcoin transactions.

[darkangel11]

By the way, if I were F2Pool owner, I wouldn't refund transaction fees to Paxos. If it was a random guy, okay, I would be kind but financial institutes like PayPal and its partner Paxos, they deserve to pay for their mistakes. There is absolutely no reason for F2Pool to refund, who is here to determine whether that fee was a mistake or not? The fact is, you are the one who chooses to pay fees. I can make a transaction with $1000 fee and then cry and ask for refund, I can make a transaction with $10 fee and do the same. Also, the result of Twitter vote was Distribute it to miners.

And I'd subtract a finder's fee and return the rest. We should promote fair play in bitcoin and show the world that it's not every man for himself and not all of us are here to take each other's money.
I agree, Paxos made a mistake and they should pay for it, but why would we punish them so hard? Take 10% fee from them and return the rest. Their reputation is tarnished by this whole thing anyway, let's not kick them when they're down.

[Z-tight]

We should promote fair play in bitcoin and show the world that it's not every man for himself and not all of us are here to take each other's money.

Tx fee attached to a transaction is for the miner who adds the transaction to a block, it is the miners money. If you decide to or mistakenly send more than you should, it is still the miners money and that's the fee you agreed to pay for your tx to be mined. If one overpays in tx fees and the miner refuses to refund the excess amount, it isn't stealing or taking someone else's money.

[Silberman]

We should promote fair play in bitcoin and show the world that it's not every man for himself and not all of us are here to take each other's money.

Tx fee attached to a transaction is for the miner who adds the transaction to a block, it is the miners money. If you decide to or mistakenly send more than you should, it is still the miners money and that's the fee you agreed to pay for your tx to be mined. If one overpays in tx fees and the miner refuses to refund the excess amount, it isn't stealing or taking someone else's money.

Agreed, if the miners which mined such block are generous enough to return the money then the person that made such a mistake should be glad this was the case and consider themselves lucky this could be solved so easily, however we must not forget that things are never that simple, miners pay taxes and such a huge incoming sum of money could cause them problems and increase the taxes they will have to pay and have nothing to show for it if they returned it.

[serveria.com]

Of course, this is not carelessness and negligence at all. Have to be blind or mentally retarded (I didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or offend) for the sender to make such a mistake with the numbers. A person dealing with bitcoin is probably not one of them, if sender managed to figure out how it works.

It's hilarious that people who don't know how to save money, people who make such mistakes, are millionaires.

In fact, I've read somewhere that it was a bot or some kind of system sending coins. Not sure if this is true or not, but in this case the devs should have been hanged by the balls by the management. So, blind, mentally retarded or a bot... 

[KingsDen]

This is actually one of the very best definitions of shit happens. We all know how people can be dumb in the crypto industry when they don't realize what they are about to do and this is one example of it. that's why we always recommend people take preventive measures in order to save them from these kinds of accidents and there is no turning back with this because there is no undo in the Bitcoin transactions.

I remember years ago when I was a newbie here and also in the crypto industry. I asked a question from the novice poit of view and today I have seen it happen. I asked what happens if transaction fees is a way high, very higher than the amount of bitcoin that is been transacted. I remember I recieved an answer that the wallets are designed in such a way that such transactions will not go through. I didn't ask further questions because I didn't have enough knowledge to ask. Today it has just happened and I do not think there will be any kind of refund anywhere.

[Z-tight]

Today it has just happened and I do not think there will be any kind of refund anywhere.

F2Pool have already refunded the excess payment to Paxos.

[philipma1957]

Personally, I exclude that it was done for laundering.

The transaction was broadcast publicly. It absolutely was not done for money laundering purposes.

I also didn't know what paypal is doing that is not good. can you please tell us what you are talking about paypal @o_e_l_e_o?

You can find thousands of examples of people having their accounts frozen and money seized while PayPal provide zero reasons why and also provide zero assistance. There was also the big issue recently where they changed their terms to allow them to confiscate users' money if those users said anything online that PayPal disagrees with: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416501.0


But anyway, the money has been refunded to Paxos: https://mempool.space/tx/1b9adb2878fce5cd1b6a11a011e3965f904829228d57cf90ca6731cd501890c6

I figured they would refund.

It does bring an interesting issue for a small pool.

https://pool.laurentiapool.org/#/work

if this small pool had hit it . the software auto sends to the four addresses that have mined to it.

so that 25 coin block would go to four people. take 180 blocks to clear.  and paypal/paxos would need to talk to four people to get a refund. not the pool but the four that mine to it.

I live in U.S.A.  I would not be able to simply return the 7 or so extra coins I got.  My address is registered and is kyc. thus it would look like I had a large taxable income.

[albert0bsd]

It does bring an interesting issue for a small pool.

I wonder if this kind of actions would bring or open something like a "precedent" for other situations

It is not the first time that a return of this type has been done, but the media coverage that this particular case has captured the attention of the financial, technological and general bitcoin community.

The worry is that if we allow this now, it might lead to more situations like it in the future. Think about a situation where someone comes with arguments like Craig Wright did againts bitcoin developers, saying that miners should be responsible for users losses or helping them to recover their lost wallets...

Just image that. 

My recommendation to miners would be not to return anything to people/corporations they need learn from their mistakes.

Regards!