It is only Bitcoin and nothing else

[YUriy1991]

Bitcoin is still in a state of upheaval right now due to price fluctuations. Well, it's interesting what you said and I think what you said is like a key zone that helps determine whether support or reject when users start their crypto journey because all markets basically consists of human behavior and All markets have memory because it returns to us ourselves deciding whether or not it is worth holding BTC.

[Dr.Osh]

that's the risk of investing in a new project. Many people recommend getting all the information from the team so that if something like this happens, investors can try to find out who is responsible for it. However, if you want a risk-free investment in crypto, the only options are bitcoin, and perhaps popular altcoins. For new projects, it's best to use money that doesn't change your life for the worse when you lose it.

[stadus]

Bitcoin alone can't sustain the market. In order for the market to grow, there should be a demand that will be created, and without altcoins, the success in the long run might be slow.

Do you think Bitcoin will reach its all-time high without altcoins?

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely about them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap.   

Of course, you are right that Bitcoin does not need altcoins, but what I would like to emphasize is that if we want to witness fast progress in the market, altcoins should be created as they can also create demand. It would result in a vice versa situation where both would benefit each other.

And for the record, I when I say altcoins, I am not referring to shitcoins, because even without shitcoins bull run would still happen, shitcoins are just riding the hype.

The question is, what demand do altcoins create that will help or have a positive impact on bitcoin? Other than being used for speculation, or frankly for gambling, I don't see any use cases from altcoins. Therefore, it cannot be said that Altcoins create demand that drives the market, they only push people who like to get rich quickly to rush into the market to gamble rather than invest.

If that's what you think, how can you explain, the top 10 altcoins in the market which some have even billions of dollars in trading volume.
https://coinmarketcap.com/

If you think they are just for speculation, I don't think they're different from Bitcoin. To see the bigger picture, look at the dominance; Bitcoin currently has 48.8% dominance in the overall market, and the rest is just controlled by altcoins. Imagine if those altcoins were taken out; panic would surely happen, and I don't think Bitcoin would stay at the current price.

Also, when a huge exchange is hacked, how come it affects the value of Bitcoin? So that only states that the market does not revolve around Bitcoin alone; legitimate altcoins are also linked to Bitcoin in terms of market sentiment.

I think bitcoin reached ATH due to the impact of halving, supply and demand in the market. Altcoins had no role in helping bitcoin reach its all-time high because the entire altcoin market was waiting for bitcoin to grow so they could increase in price.

It reached its ATH due to speculation, hype, and the like, because if it were organic, the price would not have dumped significantly after the bull run.
Just take the last bull run as an example: Bitcoin hit an ATH of $66k. Now, what is the current price?

[GigaBit]

Bitcoin alone can't sustain the market. In order for the market to grow, there should be a demand that will be created, and without altcoins, the success in the long run might be slow.

Do you think Bitcoin will reach its all-time high without altcoins?

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely about them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap.  

Of course, you are right that Bitcoin does not need altcoins, but what I would like to emphasize is that if we want to witness fast progress in the market, altcoins should be created as they can also create demand. It would result in a vice versa situation where both would benefit each other.

And for the record, I when I say altcoins, I am not referring to shitcoins, because even without shitcoins bull run would still happen, shitcoins are just riding the hype.

The question is, what demand do altcoins create that will help or have a positive impact on bitcoin? Other than being used for speculation, or frankly for gambling, I don't see any use cases from altcoins. Therefore, it cannot be said that Altcoins create demand that drives the market, they only push people who like to get rich quickly to rush into the market to gamble rather than invest.

If that's what you think, how can you explain, the top 10 altcoins in the market which some have even billions of dollars in trading volume.
https://coinmarketcap.com/

If you think they are just for speculation, I don't think they're different from Bitcoin. To see the bigger picture, look at the dominance; Bitcoin currently has 48.8% dominance in the overall market, and the rest is just controlled by altcoins. Imagine if those altcoins were taken out; panic would surely happen, and I don't think Bitcoin would stay at the current price.

Also, when a huge exchange is hacked, how come it affects the value of Bitcoin? So that only states that the market does not revolve around Bitcoin alone; legitimate altcoins are also linked to Bitcoin in terms of market sentiment.

If you consider Bitcoin and other altcoins individually, your perception of Bitcoin's position will change. I won't deny that altcoins don't have value because when a major altcoins admits to scam, the effect is temporarily reflected in bitcoin itself. This does not mean that altcoins can cause any losses to Bitcoin in the long run. Altcoins which I also consider a gambling coin exist today but may questionable in the future.

I can't make my fortune by holding a good altcoins because if they are suspicious then SEC or other agencies bring allegation or can be hacked, my dreams can be shattered. I don't want to let my dreams be influenced by others. Bitcoin is the only and fully decentralized one which I can trust.

I think bitcoin reached ATH due to the impact of halving, supply and demand in the market. Altcoins had no role in helping bitcoin reach its all-time high because the entire altcoin market was waiting for bitcoin to grow so they could increase in price.

It reached its ATH due to speculation, hype, and the like, because if it were organic, the price would not have dumped significantly after the bull run.
Just take the last bull run as an example: Bitcoin hit an ATH of $66k. Now, what is the current price?

As Bitcoin price has fallen, most of the altcoins have reached a risky position. You many know that how many altcoins have died in the market in 2022. How many altcoins have lost about 95 to 99.99 percent of their value? A survey of this will show you the reality. I have a question for you that I can assure you at some point Bitcoin will surpass its ATH but is that possible for altcoins?

[JayJuanGee]

Bitcoin alone can't sustain the market. In order for the market to grow, there should be a demand that will be created, and without altcoins, the success in the long run might be slow.

Do you think Bitcoin will reach its all-time high without altcoins?

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely about them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap. 

Of course, you are right that Bitcoin does not need altcoins, but what I would like to emphasize is that if we want to witness fast progress in the market, altcoins should be created as they can also create demand. It would result in a vice versa situation where both would benefit each other.

And for the record, I when I say altcoins, I am not referring to shitcoins, because even without shitcoins bull run would still happen, shitcoins are just riding the hype.

The question is, what demand do altcoins create that will help or have a positive impact on bitcoin? Other than being used for speculation, or frankly for gambling, I don't see any use cases from altcoins. Therefore, it cannot be said that Altcoins create demand that drives the market, they only push people who like to get rich quickly to rush into the market to gamble rather than invest.

I think bitcoin reached ATH due to the impact of halving, supply and demand in the market. Altcoins had no role in helping bitcoin reach its all-time high because the entire altcoin market was waiting for bitcoin to grow so they could increase in price.

I don't really agree with several of stadus's points, but I do think that there is a kind of balancing that needs to be considered and we are likely not going to be able to come to agreements regarding how much government and/or oversight and/or self-regulation might be valuable as a kind of struck balance.

Maybe another way of thinking about the matter is that I have my doubts that there would be much if any advancement in society if there were some kind of goal to stamp out all shitcoins, and so surely there are some kinds of behaviors that are more egregious than others, and sometimes some of the practices around bitcoin and shitcoins could facilitate various kinds of obfuscation of criminal and/or fraudulent behaviors..

I am not going to claim to know where the right balance is, and even though I am not likely to talk good about very many shitcoins, especially if they have their own token, they do sometimes provide some valuable testing grounds for technological and even incentive structure innovations that could overall being beneficial whether adopting some of that onto bitcoin or maybe serving as some kind of second, third, forth or whatever layer.. and so sometimes there could be ways to invest time, money and energies in some of those kinds of projects.. yet at the same time, from my own perspective, if there is some kind of project that is not bitcoin and it has created its own token, then there is going to be some presumption against them in terms of their being a good investment or that they are necessarily providing some kind of value... and at the same time some of them do provide some value..

Even that piece of shit ethereum that serves as the motherasshole out of which many shitcoins flow, there could be some aspects of ethereum in which some learning can take place.. so it is really difficult to make blanket statements, even if we might have certain presumptions. including that many of us will find that studying many of the variations of shit products does not tend to be a good use of time for people who have other areas of interest and ONLY so much time that they are able to spend trying to figure out some of their seemingly purposefully convoluted structures that frequently seem to be purposefully designed to scam when they make them so complicated when there are likely easier (and more straight-forward) ways to go about such designs and practices.

[edited out]

If that's what you think, how can you explain, the top 10 altcoins in the market which some have even billions of dollars in trading volume.
https://coinmarketcap.com/

That is a dumb metric.  You should not be attempting to determine if something is valuable or not merely because it has a lot of marketcap.

If you think they are just for speculation, I don't think they're different from Bitcoin.

Sounds like you don't understand bitcoin if you are making those kinds of arguments.

Many folks should be trying to figure out what bitcoin is first before getting caught up in the various shitcoin talking points.

So at least if you end up understanding bitcoin, then you might have better chances to understand some of the shitcoins, and perhaps if you figure out some aspects of bitcoin, maybe spending 100-300 hours studying it, you may well end up coming to realize that you don't need to be wasting so much time trying to argue how shitcoins have some kind of meaningful and/or substantive value.. beyond being just pump and dump nonsense or otherwise convoluted nonsense that is largely just affinity scaming the king.

To see the bigger picture, look at the dominance; Bitcoin currently has 48.8% dominance in the overall market, and the rest is just controlled by altcoins. Imagine if those altcoins were taken out; panic would surely happen, and I don't think Bitcoin would stay at the current price.

Again.. meaningless metrics.  You are doubling down on meaningless metrics and distracting shitcoin talking points...and trying to sound (appear) smart while you are going through your meaningless analysis.

Also, when a huge exchange is hacked, how come it affects the value of Bitcoin? So that only states that the market does not revolve around Bitcoin alone; legitimate altcoins are also linked to Bitcoin in terms of market sentiment.

But so what?  Who cares?  A lot of things affect Bitcoin's price including some shitcoin dynamics, but why does that matter?  why does that make bitcoin like a shitcoin?

Again, likely you need to study bitcoin first before getting caught up on meaningless metrics/indicators like the cavemen watching shadows in the cave and proclaiming those shadows to have meaning when the better ways to get meaning would actually be going outside of the cave and seeing what is actually happening rather than relying on the shadows that you see (the allegory of the cave).

I think bitcoin reached ATH due to the impact of halving, supply and demand in the market. Altcoins had no role in helping bitcoin reach its all-time high because the entire altcoin market was waiting for bitcoin to grow so they could increase in price.

It reached its ATH due to speculation, hype, and the like, because if it were organic, the price would not have dumped significantly after the bull run.
Just take the last bull run as an example: Bitcoin hit an ATH of $66k. Now, what is the current price?

Even though none of us likely really know all of the ways in which BTC price is affected, but you can still consider that there are likely some aspects of bitcoin that are contributing to its longer term price dynamics that mostly revolve around ideas of 1) stock to flow, 2) 4-year fractal and 3) exponential s-curve adoption based on network effects^** and metcalfe principles.  So yeah, there are some other short term ups and downs that can take place but you likely are going to get a bit further in your analysis by looking at the three categories in terms of attempting to figure out some of the longer term BTC price dynamic...

** Note:  network effects is related to the seven pointed out by trace mayer.

[rachael9385]

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely a bout them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap.   

 , hahaha, even if altcoins are needed, I don't think that a King Daddy needs altcoins because altcoins are bunches of bullshit. If altcoins need King daddy, altcoins should be nicer for those who already invested in them. Maybe King Daddy will just look at it a bit (but not have an interest in investing in it).

You are apparently correct, altcoins are scam coins and the inventors of those coins are using these means to scam people. If King daddy is speaking nicely about these altcoins, it means that King daddy is supporting them. Nowadays, scammers are using these altcoins as another means to scam people, and it is also giving those coins more negative trust for big investors not to invest in them.

that's the risk of investing in a new project. Many people recommend getting all the information from the team so that if something like this happens, investors can try to find out who is responsible for it. However, if you want a risk-free investment in crypto, the only options are bitcoin, and perhaps popular altcoins. For new projects, it's best to use money that doesn't change your life for the worse when you lose it.

That's why, before investing in new projects, you must do good research about the project and after doing the research, you also get ideas from others who have joined before you so you will not make a mistake when you start investing in them, then you also invest with, small amount of capital so that even if the project didn't end well you will not end up losing big.
Bitcoin is a legit crypto currency. That is why it is still standing strong, but other projects (coins) have been grounded by themselves and people's money have lost.

[TakeItEasy]

Bitcoin is the future of the economy and nothing in the future can take the place of Bitcoin. The ups and downs of Bitcoin's price now depend on the present, but what is important is the general future of Bitcoin, which is certain to rise.

You can increase your economy through investment in Bitcoin. Although there are lots of other options but bitcoin is unique among them. Also remember that you economy cannot be good within a month but it will requires your high priced time.

Those who have faith in bitcoin can get the profit easily but if you Loss your faith when market oscillates then it is not possible for you to have patience anymore as you will decide to stop thinking during bear market and will have faith that market will always red and will never turn into green.

A crypto expert will not be effected by red or green/ups and downs as before Initiation they learned all the necessary information and also trust on past to be reoccur in future also.

[JayJuanGee]

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely a bout them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap.  

 , hahaha, even if altcoins are needed, I don't think that a King Daddy needs altcoins because altcoins are bunches of bullshit. If altcoins need King daddy, altcoins should be nicer for those who already invested in them. Maybe King Daddy will just look at it a bit (but not have an interest in investing in it).

You are apparently correct, altcoins are scam coins and the inventors of those coins are using these means to scam people. If King daddy is speaking nicely about these altcoins, it means that King daddy is supporting them. Nowadays, scammers are using these altcoins as another means to scam people, and it is also giving those coins more negative trust for big investors not to invest in them.

I mostly agree with you. .especially if we were posting in a bitcoin ONLY thread.. but this thread is arguing bitcoin versus shitcoins and saying that bitcoin is better, so that allows for discussion in both directions. and sure, I largely agree with the conclusion of OP, but most likely there are going to be a lot of ways that opinions vary, and my overall conclusion is fuck shitcoins, but it is not like any of us could wipe them off the face of the earth or the right solution would be to eliminate all persons involved in them.. unless we find crimes involved, and even then the punishment for crimes is not death.. and also, sometimes the egregious behaviors might not even be violations of laws, but there still could be ethical transgressions and there sometimes are also civil claims that arise towards causes of actions that some people might have against other people but they still may well not end up getting charged as crimes because there might not be enough evidence that they reach the criminal standards for prosecution.

Bitcoin is the future of the economy and nothing in the future can take the place of Bitcoin. The ups and downs of Bitcoin's price now depend on the present, but what is important is the general future of Bitcoin, which is certain to rise.

You can increase your economy through investment in Bitcoin. Although there are lots of other options but bitcoin is unique among them. Also remember that you economy cannot be good within a month but it will requires your high priced time.

Those who have faith in bitcoin can get the profit easily but if you Loss your faith when market oscillates then it is not possible for you to have patience anymore as you will decide to stop thinking during bear market and will have faith that market will always red and will never turn into green.

A crypto expert will not be effected by red or green/ups and downs as before Initiation they learned all the necessary information and also trust on past to be reoccur in future also.

The seeming assertions of your post are strange @TakeItEasy.

It is like you are telling us that shitcoiners have higher resolve than bitcoiners, which truly does not seem to be the case, even if there tend to be some differences in terms of how shitcoiners will frequently have marketing budgets, but sometimes even their market budgets cannot keep their mostly pump and dump crap afloat.

[rachael9385]

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely a bout them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap.  

 , hahaha, even if altcoins are needed, I don't think that a King Daddy needs altcoins because altcoins are bunches of bullshit. If altcoins need King daddy, altcoins should be nicer for those who already invested in them. Maybe King Daddy will just look at it a bit (but not have an interest in investing in it).

You are apparently correct, altcoins are scam coins and the inventors of those coins are using these means to scam people. If King daddy is speaking nicely about these altcoins, it means that King daddy is supporting them. Nowadays, scammers are using these altcoins as another means to scam people, and it is also giving those coins more negative trust for big investors not to invest in them.

I mostly agree with you. .especially if we were posting in a bitcoin ONLY thread.. but this thread is arguing bitcoin versus shitcoins and saying that bitcoin is better, so that allows for discussion in both directions. and sure, I largely agree with the conclusion of OP, but most likely there are going to be a lot of ways that opinions vary, and my overall conclusion is fuck shitcoins, but it is not like any of us could wipe them off the face of the earth or the right solution would be to eliminate all persons involved in them.. unless we find crimes involved, and even then the punishment for crimes is not death.. and also, sometimes the egregious behaviors might not even be violations of laws, but there still could be ethical transgressions and there sometimes are also civil claims that arise towards causes of actions that some people might have against other people but they still may well not end up getting charged as crimes because there might not be enough evidence that they reach the criminal standards for prosecution.

Yes, I agree with you @JJG, you have a clear point. Wiping it from the face of the Earth won't bring any change and, if no shitcoins are not in the market, it will be so boring because it is only Bitcoin that will stay, so it won't be interesting, just like how it is now that we are all talking about Bitcoin and altcoins at the same time, so if only Bitcoin is in the market things to discuss about won't be many, if not price?It will just like like everyone already knows how it is.
I accept the fact that the punishment is not about death, so shitcoins should still stay and occupy space, unless we find high crimes in shitcoinsbe.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

That's not true. There are several other cryptocurrencies that can also be pretty profitable apart from Bitcoin, though the trust level differs between Bitcoin and them, they are not all completely useless.

Not completely useless, but completely riskier. It is completely difficult to know which altcoins will generate profit for you, and it is also completely difficult to know when the coin can get pumped and dumped. At least for a decade now, Bitcoin has lived, and it's still waxing stronger. It's been defined that Bitcoin has two seasons, which are the bear and bull markets, and during the bull market, investors make some profit on their coins that they have purchased during the bear season. Altcoins mostly get so influenced by the bull season of Bitcoin that some of the altcoins get pumped, and after they dump, there is likely a 0.1% possibility of the token rising again. In fact, you can even buy an altcoin, and the project can decide to do a token swap while you are sleeping ( ), and by the time you wake up, the time frame they gave for the token swap is over, which will give you a total loss of funds.

[freedomgo]

Altcoins mostly get so influenced by the bull season of Bitcoin that some of the altcoins get pumped, and after they dump, there is likely a 0.1% possibility of the token rising again.

Generalizing the altcoins market as shitcoins is wrong, though we might have different views, your presumption that there's only a 0.1% possibility of the token rising again, which is close to impossible, is baseless. Have you gone through checking the altcoins market? The first altcoin that enjoyed enormous success was Ethereum. Back then, BNB was just a token for Ethereum before they had their own network, and guess what's one of the biggest exchanges now? Isn't it Binance?

The point is, if it does not start as a Eth Token, Binance woudn't be successfu and the present time and you are probably benefiting on the existence of the exchange since most traders favorite is Binance.

Look at the history of BNB and see how profitable it is.

The price of Binance Coin during the token sale was $ 0.15 per BNB. The Binance Coin token sale started on Jun 26, 2017, and lasted until Jul 3, 2017. Compared to its initial token sale price, BNB is currently showing an ROI of 1,435.52x against the US dollar, 132.63x against Bitcoin, and 248.52x against Ethereum.

source : https://coincodex.com/ico/binance-coin/

[ginsan]

There is a power within compounding and exponentials... so if the BTC price is going up through the years, and maybe not very clearly over a few years, but over a cycle or two, you are able to see a kind of stablizing and building upon itself in such a way that after a certain passage of time, it becomes quite difficult to push the BTC price below certain price points. 

With all the experiences you have shared, of course it is in accordance with what I said before, where holding BTC for a long period of time promises greater profits. Because it is based on several interesting things regarding the future development of Bitcoin, be it mass adoption or lots of positive news that can make Bitcoin prices rise significantly.

Easier said than done.  Unless you have a lot of confidence in your various other investments (so I guess I am speaking towards diversification.. but not into shitcoins), it can be quite difficult to see your investment go up 50x or more, and sure I am not even claiming my own to currently be up more than 27x, since I like to use $1k as my average cost per BTC... .. and so you can imagine  that at some point there's gotta be some shaving off, and figuring out how to deal with the volatility without screwing things up.. ....

No, I'm not interested in the word diversification. You seem to imagine that it will be very difficult for us to achieve large profits in the coming years. I will not attribute income to profits in the short term because I am more interested in doing it in the long term. Volatility is not a reference that will disturb us from always checking the depth of profits every week/month. I don't think we will know for sure how progress will occur in the next year or the next 10 years on the price of Bitcoin. But seeing as the history of Bitcoin always goes up and returns a positive enough Roi for holders in the long term so we are interested in doing it.

Diversification can always be linked to Shitcoin even if you have denied it. However, this word still doesn't really make us interested in the mention of diversification that you mentioned. Yes, maybe we started quite slowly but we will not be easily provoked by a lot of inaccurate words in our train of thought for the long term. One thing I admire is your level of determination in holding Bitcoin for so long and I want to do the same thing you have done.

[JayJuanGee]

There is a power within compounding and exponentials... so if the BTC price is going up through the years, and maybe not very clearly over a few years, but over a cycle or two, you are able to see a kind of stablizing and building upon itself in such a way that after a certain passage of time, it becomes quite difficult to push the BTC price below certain price points. 

With all the experiences you have shared, of course it is in accordance with what I said before, where holding BTC for a long period of time promises greater profits. Because it is based on several interesting things regarding the future development of Bitcoin, be it mass adoption or lots of positive news that can make Bitcoin prices rise significantly.

Easier said than done.  Unless you have a lot of confidence in your various other investments (so I guess I am speaking towards diversification.. but not into shitcoins), it can be quite difficult to see your investment go up 50x or more, and sure I am not even claiming my own to currently be up more than 27x, since I like to use $1k as my average cost per BTC... .. and so you can imagine  that at some point there's gotta be some shaving off, and figuring out how to deal with the volatility without screwing things up.. ....

No, I'm not interested in the word diversification. You seem to imagine that it will be very difficult for us to achieve large profits in the coming years.

I think that you took my points differently than I had intended because I was mostly attempting to describe the various challenges in investing into BTC and also holding for the long term... so "easier said than done" has to do with how difficult it can be to HODL or keep buying or to just have some solid strategies (that could even include some selling on the way up and buy on the way down), especially when profits can sometimes seem to become so great so quickly.

I will not attribute income to profits in the short term because I am more interested in doing it in the long term. Volatility is not a reference that will disturb us from always checking the depth of profits every week/month. I don't think we will know for sure how progress will occur in the next year or the next 10 years on the price of Bitcoin. But seeing as the history of Bitcoin always goes up and returns a positive enough Roi for holders in the long term so we are interested in doing it.

I am glad that you have conviction, so that does help to hold through the greatly volatile periods, and for sure, there are no guarantees that bitcoin's price will "always go up."

Diversification can always be linked to Shitcoin even if you have denied it.

I have repeated my points of diversification many times, but yes.. shitcoiners use such ideas in order to try to sell their crap... so even if someone might start out ONLY invested in bitcoin and cash, so the only diversification is the level of cash that is held to offset the bitcoin, at a certain point, as our investment into bitcoin grows, and maybe it becomes several times our annual income, we are likely going to need to consider ways to protect ourselves from the extremes of BTC's likely ongoing volatility including realizing that bitcoin's UPpity trajectory is not guaranteed.

how much should we be investing into other asset classes such as property, stocks, bonds, commodities and/or cash/cash equivalents is surely a matter of personal discretion.. but it seems that there is going to be some need to have some assurance that, even if bitcoin does end up going to zero, there is some ownership of other assets.. and/or income sources.. and how much can we keep in cash that we won't end up using to buy bitcoin as its price goes down and we are not sure when such downward fall is going to stop and we could end up running out of cash at some point during some of the bitcoin downity price events.. that surely happen from time to time and maybe more frequently than many of the BTC hodlers would prefer.

However, this word still doesn't really make us interested in the mention of diversification that you mentioned.

Just because shitcoiners use it does not mean that we should completely reject the idea.  Many people sleep much better when they have some other assets besides having everything in bitcoin.. your choice of assets remains your choice.

Yes, maybe we started quite slowly but we will not be easily provoked by a lot of inaccurate words in our train of thought for the long term. One thing I admire is your level of determination in holding Bitcoin for so long and I want to do the same thing you have done.

In late 2013, when I got into bitcoin, I already had a fairly diversified investment portfolio that included several asset classes and even a kind of fund that provided passive income (in the event that I wanted to draw from it or let it fold into itself and/or a certain amount of flexibility involving how much I could draw from it)... so as I was investing into bitcoin, after about a year, I figured out that my allocation would be in the 10% arena as compared with my other quasi-liquid investment portfolio, so even though by the mid-to-end of 2015, I had ended up overallocating into bitcoin in the neighborhood of 13.5%-ish, there were several times, that I had gotten tempted to reallocate some of my traditional investments into bitcoin, and in the end, I refrained from doing it, and I really think that my refraining from putting even more value into bitcoin allowed me a certain level of sanity and also an ability to feel that I could mostly let my BTC portfolio ride when it went from 13.5% to 80%-ish in 2017 and then corrected back down to 45%-ish in 2018 and then went back up to nearly 90% in 2021 and then maybe came back down to 60%-ish in the lows of 2022 and then maybe now it is around 70% to 75%... so those are high percentages that I mostly just allowed to ride through BTC volatility periods mostly because I continued to have the diversification that includes other passive income sources that can be adjusted up or down depending on cashflow needs.

Yeah. my current shitcoin allocation is less than 0.5%.. but still even mostly sitting on those shitcoins, there were some periods in which they exceeded 1%. maybe even including when Bcash became available for bitcoiners, even though I mostly sold mine within a few months .. but still there have been some shitcoins that I have kept in my portfolio.. and I don't really care too much what they do.. and maybe they are there as a kind of alternative way to transact if there were a need make such transactions outside of the dollar or outside of bitcoin. 

I like to bash a lot on shitcoins, but I am not even going to blame anyone who invests and screws around with shitcoins who keeps their allocation to some relatively low amount that might even end up getting up to 10% of the size of their bitcoin holdings.. but if they go beyond that, I likely will be more questioning their judgement.. and sure there are likely some honest people who are spending their time on shitcoins, and so surely there are likely some of those folks who are able to justify their approach to time, energies and value invested into shitcoins versus bitcoin, and so I suppose there is a kind of resolution to just accept their choices, even if they are choices that I would not make... and so surely people are free to make those kinds of choices for themselves...and hopefully they are not damaging the world or misleading too many people with their investment allocation choices.

[ChicksX]

Many other cryptocurrencies are credible. It does seem that the majority of altcoins to have lasted and maintained trade volume are ones with unique technical innovations or advantages.

For example:
Bitcoin has first-mover advantage.
NameCoin is generally considered the first altcoin but its technical benefits have been superseded by smart-contract-based networks.
LiteCoin has the first mover advantage of a coin with low fees and fast transactions (relative to BTC). It also gained prominence by being referred to as "digital-silver"
And so on..

[JayJuanGee]

Many other cryptocurrencies are credible. It does seem that the majority of altcoins to have lasted and maintained trade volume are ones with unique technical innovations or advantages.
For example:
Bitcoin has first-mover advantage.
NameCoin is generally considered the first altcoin but its technical benefits have been superseded by smart-contract-based networks.
LiteCoin has the first mover advantage of a coin with low fees and fast transactions (relative to BTC). It also gained prominence by being referred to as "digital-silver"
And so on..

You speak nonsense gobbledy-gook.

If we are able to understand bitcoin as a paradigm-shifting invention of a kind of protocol, then anything that expects to supercede it needs to be something like 10x better otherwise, yes, the first mover advantage becomes a real thing and the copycats, whether litecoin or otherwise did not invent anything really new.. and if it might even be better than bitcoin it is not 10x better and it is not better in any kind of way that whatever their supposed contribution.. to the extent that their tokens might retain some value, could merely end up become competed away by bitcoin or become a second or third layer upon bitcoin...

Remember when that shitcoin ethereum said that bitcoin was going to become a second layer upon it.. what a bunch of nonsense.. you cannot retain decentralization or security unless the decentralized and the secure is the most base of the layers.. which is what bitcoin is.. bitcoin is the most decentralized and the most secure, so in that sense other projects could be built upon it rather than the other way around otherwise the decentralization and security ends up getting lost.. which is a lot of how bitcoin gets its value in the first place through the proof of work systems, incentives around that and the difficulty adjustments and halvenings factored therein...   

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Many other cryptocurrencies are credible. It does seem that the majority of altcoins to have lasted and maintained trade volume are ones with unique technical innovations or advantages.

Many, you say? I can't even get my fingers around a few to mention. Talking about credibility in most of those altcoins that you are talking about, do you also forget that there were some altcoins that others thought were very credible, but most of those altcoins are no longer existing today? All those altcoins—are they credible in the sense that they don't have any seasons? They are still led by Bitcoin, which we all know has the seasons of bull and bear, which the altcoins try to use Bitcoin seasons as an advantage. Either to disappear from existence with the excuse that the market is bearish or maybe they can pump their tokens to entice more investors.

Tera Luna should have been exiting until today, but what happened? While I believe that some people might have pictured it as a credible currency while it was still active,

Well, I can't say much, but what you must know is that, just as JayJuanGee has said, Bitcoin is much more decentralized and secure than other crypto currencies. If the government wants to form an alliance with Bitcoin, who would they meet? I think the answer is no one. But what if they need to form alliances with other cryptocurrencies? I think they can just easily access the CEO of those projects.

[Marvell1]

Bitcoin alone can't sustain the market. In order for the market to grow, there should be a demand that will be created, and without altcoins, the success in the long run might be slow.

Do you think Bitcoin will reach its all-time high without altcoins?

Now you are pumping the idea that shitcoins are needed.  Great.

King daddy does not need altcoins, but altcoins need king daddy.  How about we say it like that?  King daddy cannot get rid of altcoins.  Altcoins and a variety of attacks and affinity scams are going to continue to exist, so hopefully you are not getting too distracted into thinking that the mere fact that they are going to exist means that we need to speak nicely about them.  People do a lot of dumb things and people are scammed into shitty, inferior and sometimes completely worthless projects.  I doubt that we want regulations to completely save people from themselves, but surely frequently scammers are already engaging in fraudulent kinds of behaviors, and if they are not then there might be some value in just letting people learn for themselves if they are investing and/or buying inferior and/or worthless pump and dump crap.   

Of course, you are right that Bitcoin does not need altcoins, but what I would like to emphasize is that if we want to witness fast progress in the market, altcoins should be created as they can also create demand. It would result in a vice versa situation where both would benefit each other.

And for the record, I when I say altcoins, I am not referring to shitcoins, because even without shitcoins bull run would still happen, shitcoins are just riding the hype.

The question is, what demand do altcoins create that will help or have a positive impact on bitcoin? Other than being used for speculation, or frankly for gambling, I don't see any use cases from altcoins. Therefore, it cannot be said that Altcoins create demand that drives the market, they only push people who like to get rich quickly to rush into the market to gamble rather than invest.

If that's what you think, how can you explain, the top 10 altcoins in the market which some have even billions of dollars in trading volume.
https://coinmarketcap.com/

If you think they are just for speculation, I don't think they're different from Bitcoin. To see the bigger picture, look at the dominance; Bitcoin currently has 48.8% dominance in the overall market, and the rest is just controlled by altcoins. Imagine if those altcoins were taken out; panic would surely happen, and I don't think Bitcoin would stay at the current price.

Also, when a huge exchange is hacked, how come it affects the value of Bitcoin? So that only states that the market does not revolve around Bitcoin alone; legitimate altcoins are also linked to Bitcoin in terms of market sentiment.

So, can you allow me to ask you something, where did the top 10 altcoins of 2013 go, and where did the topcoins of 2017 go? Such as XLM, LISK, EOS, BCH...and thousands of shitcoins that many people call potential and bring us new technology, where have they gone? I believe that the projects you call top altcoins will suffer the same fate as the projects I mentioned. They are just created to hype and scam people and then disappear without any real utility or application.

Bitcoin is also affected if some shitcoin disappears or an exchange goes bankrupt because not everyone is invested in bitcoin for the long term or for its potential. There are many speculators and gamblers that exist in the market and those people will often be the ones to dump their bitcoins whenever negative news spreads in the market. You cannot expect that all bitcoin investors are long-term investors, there will be one and the other.

I think bitcoin reached ATH due to the impact of halving, supply and demand in the market. Altcoins had no role in helping bitcoin reach its all-time high because the entire altcoin market was waiting for bitcoin to grow so they could increase in price.

It reached its ATH due to speculation, hype, and the like, because if it were organic, the price would not have dumped significantly after the bull run.
Just take the last bull run as an example: Bitcoin hit an ATH of $66k. Now, what is the current price?

I agree that bitcoin reaching ATH is not completely determined by supply and demand, but have you noticed that every bull season that passes, the new ATH is always higher than the old ATH? Isn't that enough to prove that the demand for bitcoin is growing higher every day?

[ginsan]

There is a power within compounding and exponentials... so if the BTC price is going up through the years, and maybe not very clearly over a few years, but over a cycle or two, you are able to see a kind of stablizing and building upon itself in such a way that after a certain passage of time, it becomes quite difficult to push the BTC price below certain price points. 

With all the experiences you have shared, of course it is in accordance with what I said before, where holding BTC for a long period of time promises greater profits. Because it is based on several interesting things regarding the future development of Bitcoin, be it mass adoption or lots of positive news that can make Bitcoin prices rise significantly.

Easier said than done.  Unless you have a lot of confidence in your various other investments (so I guess I am speaking towards diversification.. but not into shitcoins), it can be quite difficult to see your investment go up 50x or more, and sure I am not even claiming my own to currently be up more than 27x, since I like to use $1k as my average cost per BTC... .. and so you can imagine  that at some point there's gotta be some shaving off, and figuring out how to deal with the volatility without screwing things up.. ....

No, I'm not interested in the word diversification. You seem to imagine that it will be very difficult for us to achieve large profits in the coming years.

I think that you took my points differently than I had intended because I was mostly attempting to describe the various challenges in investing into BTC and also holding for the long term... so "easier said than done" has to do with how difficult it can be to HODL or keep buying or to just have some solid strategies (that could even include some selling on the way up and buy on the way down), especially when profits can sometimes seem to become so great so quickly.

I understand what you have explained, moreover, you explain it in stages which is very easy for us to understand. Yes, sudden profits are indeed a temptation for us to take them, but that is a trial that we must pass if our planning is to hold out in the long term. But I admit that there are many strategies that make us confident to hold on for the long term, one of which is profits that are multiples of the profits that are coming now. Of course that motivation is what makes us optimistic to continue to focus on accumulating Bitcoin at every stage. Our motivation grew to hold Bitcoin for a long period because of several facts that we saw. For example, you, you bought BTC in 2013 and held your BTC holdings for a long time, of course if you look at the profit ROI, of course you have made profits that you didn't expect before.

Therefore we want to follow your lead in continuing to hold Bitcoin for the long term. Moreover, the halving will occur next year, Bitcoin will automatically increase in price if you look at the history of the halving 4 years ago. There is no more effective strategy than DCA which we have implemented. Maybe one day we will start with larger capital if we get money from bonuses where we work.

[JayJuanGee]

There is a power within compounding and exponentials... so if the BTC price is going up through the years, and maybe not very clearly over a few years, but over a cycle or two, you are able to see a kind of stablizing and building upon itself in such a way that after a certain passage of time, it becomes quite difficult to push the BTC price below certain price points. 

With all the experiences you have shared, of course it is in accordance with what I said before, where holding BTC for a long period of time promises greater profits. Because it is based on several interesting things regarding the future development of Bitcoin, be it mass adoption or lots of positive news that can make Bitcoin prices rise significantly.

Easier said than done.  Unless you have a lot of confidence in your various other investments (so I guess I am speaking towards diversification.. but not into shitcoins), it can be quite difficult to see your investment go up 50x or more, and sure I am not even claiming my own to currently be up more than 27x, since I like to use $1k as my average cost per BTC... .. and so you can imagine  that at some point there's gotta be some shaving off, and figuring out how to deal with the volatility without screwing things up.. ....

No, I'm not interested in the word diversification. You seem to imagine that it will be very difficult for us to achieve large profits in the coming years.

I think that you took my points differently than I had intended because I was mostly attempting to describe the various challenges in investing into BTC and also holding for the long term... so "easier said than done" has to do with how difficult it can be to HODL or keep buying or to just have some solid strategies (that could even include some selling on the way up and buy on the way down), especially when profits can sometimes seem to become so great so quickly.

I understand what you have explained, moreover, you explain it in stages which is very easy for us to understand. Yes, sudden profits are indeed a temptation for us to take them, but that is a trial that we must pass if our planning is to hold out in the long term. But I admit that there are many strategies that make us confident to hold on for the long term, one of which is profits that are multiples of the profits that are coming now. Of course that motivation is what makes us optimistic to continue to focus on accumulating Bitcoin at every stage. Our motivation grew to hold Bitcoin for a long period because of several facts that we saw. For example, you, you bought BTC in 2013 and held your BTC holdings for a long time, of course if you look at the profit ROI, of course you have made profits that you didn't expect before.

Therefore we want to follow your lead in continuing to hold Bitcoin for the long term. Moreover, the halving will occur next year, Bitcoin will automatically increase in price if you look at the history of the halving 4 years ago. There is no more effective strategy than DCA which we have implemented. Maybe one day we will start with larger capital if we get money from bonuses where we work.

Well yeah.. you can just keep plugging away, so each person is going to have differing goals.. and so maybe since you have been in bitcoin longer, you might have had been able to accumulate more bitcoin than some others who are brand new to bitcoin, and some guys might consider that they would like to get to 2 BTC in the next 10 years.. and so along the way they might have several targets, such as first reaching 1 million satoshis.. then reaching 21 million, then reaching 50 million.. and then 1 BTC.. and then 1.5 BTC and etc, etc. etc...

so like you mentioned, there could be times in your life where you end up getting some extra cash come your way.. such as $2k that you did not expect, and maybe you decide you are going to use $1,200 to buy bitcoin and then you have some other personal plans for the other $800.. but your level of aggressiveness and consistency can pay off, and if you clearly consider yourself in an accumulation phase, then you should not be wanting to engage in behaviors that might be screwing up your plan.. but you also don't want to act so aggressively that you have not adequately planned various expenses in your life.

Another thing with bitcoin price dynamics, the longer that you are in bitcoin, and if you are able to exercise prudent and reasonable practices, then you can surely engage in practices of buying on the dip or even shaving off a little bit of bitcoin at various points in which the BTC price rips UPwardly a lot.. and sure the BTC price might not correct back down, but if you figure out how to sell small amounts of BTC, then you should not necessarily be concerned if you ended up being correct or not about anticipating a correction.. and surely it is not easy to get ahead of the BTC price and that is frequently why some guys will refuse to sell any BTC at all while they are in their accumulation phase until they get to a certain level of profits and also a certain level of accumulation... so sometimes any sales of BTC will end up falling into a category of spend and replace within a fairly short period of time.

[ginsan]

Well yeah.. you can just keep plugging away, so each person is going to have differing goals.. and so maybe since you have been in bitcoin longer, you might have had been able to accumulate more bitcoin than some others who are brand new to bitcoin, and some guys might consider that they would like to get to 2 BTC in the next 10 years.. and so along the way they might have several targets, such as first reaching 1 million satoshis.. then reaching 21 million, then reaching 50 million.. and then 1 BTC.. and then 1.5 BTC and etc, etc. etc...

I want to stay in the circle of investing in Bitcoin and to be honest I haven't used Bitcoin since (eg 2013). I started in 2016 and from 2017 until now, even at that time there was no strong initiative for me to withhold in the long term because I still had minimal knowledge about Bitcoin. (meaning I only bought Bitcoin and sold again when I made a profit, but the results were zero big because the money was used up in vain because of other things. But after I followed a lot of developments in the Bitcoin discussion, I kind of want to holding it for a long time and buying gradually using the DCA method. Various targets might be included in my investment planning, such as 1 BTC a year if  it is achieved or 0.5 BTC per year. Planning like that is good enough to implement because with this target we can be confident and full of enthusiasm to be able to achieve it earlier with the aggressive level that we can do.

so like you mentioned, there could be times in your life where you end up getting some extra cash come your way.. such as $2k that you did not expect, and maybe you decide you are going to use $1,200 to buy bitcoin and then you have some other personal plans for the other $800.. but your level of aggressiveness and consistency can pay off, and if you clearly consider yourself in an accumulation phase, then you should not be wanting to engage in behaviors that might be screwing up your plan.. but you also don't want to act so aggressively that you have not adequately planned various expenses in your life.

Of course, every time you work, you will definitely get additional money given by company management if a company gets bigger profits every year, so we as employees might get a bonus which we can maximize to buy BTC.

Another thing with bitcoin price dynamics, the longer that you are in bitcoin, and if you are able to exercise prudent and reasonable practices, then you can surely engage in practices of buying on the dip or even shaving off a little bit of bitcoin at various points in which the BTC price rips UPwardly a lot.. and sure the BTC price might not correct back down, but if you figure out how to sell small amounts of BTC, then you should not necessarily be concerned if you ended up being correct or not about anticipating a correction.. and surely it is not easy to get ahead of the BTC price and that is frequently why some guys will refuse to sell any BTC at all while they are in their accumulation phase until they get to a certain level of profits and also a certain level of accumulation... so sometimes any sales of BTC will end up falling into a category of spend and replace within a fairly short period of time.

The opportunity to buy wisely, of course, when prices fall. Yes, sometimes the moment is missed for us because we don't have the funds available to buy at a sudden drop in price. At the same time we only make purchases according to the planning in the Strategy stage that we do with DCA. In fact, of course it makes sense if we make a trade that buys when the price goes down and takes profit when the price goes up, but this pattern is only to be played for the short term, not the long term. Like what you have done where you have held BTC from 2013 until now.