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Author Topic: Investigation and action required. Unusual forum moderation.  (Read 933 times)
BitcoinGirl.Club (OP)
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October 29, 2023, 03:22:07 AM
Merited by hugeblack (4), NeuroticFish (2), GazetaBitcoin (2)
 #1

The main man needs to look into the matter, he has the supreme access of everything including access of the forum PM [the communication can be done using a none forum media too] and the database. No, this is not a reputation matter, this is a forum issue hence the topic is on the meta board.

The moderators in question: Russian local board moderators Xal0lex and xandry.

There are not enough public links for unusual moderation from xandry yet however since the activities concentrated in the Russian local board we can not ignore his involvement too. Again as I said the main man [Theymos] have ultimate access of everything for investigation. Let's bring everything that questions the unusual moderation.

Everything had started a few days ago when LoyceV created a topic about deleting his post in a self-moderated topic and later it found out that the same user was deleting several other's posts too from his self-moderated topic and the fact had established that he was deleting the posts to cover the trace of his past plagiarism, current feedback abuse, DT manipulation and his tactics of offering peace to negotiate any feedback left to him. Everything about the user has outlined very well in the topic "Should Ratimov be in DT?". It requires almost half an hour read to understand and realize the motive of the user. I highly suggest to read the topic, if you have not yet.

At some point it was discovered that Ratimov was following a very simple strategy to cover up his past and current evil activities to achieve whatever goal he has. The steps are following [the order of the steps can be different in case by case but it is believed that the executions were very similar as explained in the following]
[a.] He moves his topics to Archive
[b.] He deletes his own posts
[c.] He moves the topic to the Russian local board. This is where Russian moderators come into our knowledge.
[d.] He reports other's posts from the topics.
[e.] Moderators delete the reported posts because now these posts are irrelevant in the discussion
[f.] He removes everything from the main topic and makes it an empty topic
[g.] He reports the empty topic to the moderator
[h.] Finally the moderator wipes out the entire topic.

A very lengthy but simple and effective strategy to wipe out any unwanted record. Anyone can delete their past posts which is not wrong but the way the whole things were done, it was not usual.  It definitely is questionable. So questions were asked, we had our speculations too.

This raise concern that why he preferred to move an English topic to a non-English board [his local of-course] and expected it to be deleted or already deleted.
Therefore, unless Xal0lex was his "pal" for deleting evidence from Archival board as well, it means that some other mod helped him.
Maybe this is the reason:
I personally process reports regardless of the date of the post or topic.

Response were given but more like a few excuses with a few return questions. Sounds like a preplanned dialog in defense in case there are questions.
[....]
Why should moderators be ashamed of doing their job? What do you think a moderator should do if he sees such garbage topics in the root of the section under his control?
[...]
Do these trash topics have to stay in the section, or what? Go to the root of the Russian section and browse the pages, there are plenty of such topics. So what, let them lie around? What kind of moderator would allow such a mess? So naturally, the moderators delete them.

Anticipating a question about the content that was there, so that's not interesting to me. I see what's in those threads now. We don't need such trash topics in the section.

Unpleasant merit transactions found by GazetaBitcoin but I would like to accept speculation from LoyceV, "It's quite normal for a Merit source to Merit someone when they use the same local board. I don't expect the posts to be bad, so it's not wrong."
[...]
Ratimov is mod's no. 1 fan!
[...]
The appreciation is mutual! The mod also also chose Ratimov as his first destination of merits, sending him an amount more than double compared to his second most merited user.
[...]

How can a moderator or moderators do not see a single user is following a pattern and using him [them] to remove many other's posts including his entire topics. Not 1 or 5 or 10. Let's read what he said.
Since the appearance of your topic, I personally have deleted no more than 30 topics. Don't forget that the Russian section has two moderators. So no need to attribute to me what is not there (nepotism, etc).
30 Topic! Out of 78 and yet nothing looked unusual to him. That's only 30 topics, how many posts these 78 topics had those were reported and deleted?
A database query will surely show the numbers and also it will show how many topics and posts were deleted by the same moderator but he never thought something is not normal.

I would like to think you were fooled on the other hand I don't know if you had any personal reason to favor a local member.
No more speculations.

At some point the same moderator became unusually aggressive in his defense too.
Is my English so bad that you don't understand? Or are you trying to troll? What is not clear in what I wrote above? [...]
When you are not guilty, there are no need to lose your control. The moderation is questionable either it was a mutual agreement or an innocent irresponsibility.

What matter is, are we going to allow moderators who do not have a sense of responsibility, the liability and loyalty to preserve the reputation of bitcointalk? An investigation is required first to find if the moderators are guilty of mutual agreement or it was an innocent irresponsibility. Second, based on the result of the investigation, an action is required.

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October 29, 2023, 04:47:49 AM
Merited by NeuroticFish (3)
 #2

A very lengthy but simple and effective strategy to wipe out any unwanted record. Anyone can delete their past posts which is not wrong but the way the whole things were done, it was not usual.  It definitely is questionable. So questions were asked, we had our speculations too.

I don't know to what extent the moderators of the local Russian board may be in cahoots with him, as you and Gazeta suggest, what is clear is that Ratimov's behavior is quite suspicious and so far has resulted in a few DT1 distrusting him. Those are many, too many deleted threads, and Mr. Switzerland putting him on ignore for it, opening the quoted thread, gives a lot to think about.

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October 29, 2023, 07:40:18 AM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #3

What matter is, are we going to allow moderators who do not have a sense of responsibility, the liability and loyalty to preserve the reputation of bitcointalk?
One way or another, deleting trash is exactly what Mods are hired for. The only thing that - in my opinion - shouldn't have gone unpunished is moving trash-topics into another board:
What do you think a moderator should do if he sees such garbage topics in the root of the section under his control?
Isn't that what bans are for? To stop people from posting garbage?
Then again, users often get away with many bad posts without getting banned.

An investigation is required first to find if the moderators are guilty of mutual agreement or it was an innocent irresponsibility.
I assume and hope theymos will not use his "access of the forum PM" for this.

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October 29, 2023, 08:02:12 AM
Merited by LoyceV (4), hugeblack (4), BitcoinGirl.Club (2), Inwestour (1)
 #4

[a.] He moves his topics to Archive
[b.] He deletes his own posts
[c.] He moves the topic to the Russian local board. This is where Russian moderators come into our knowledge.
[d.] He reports other's posts from the topics.
[e.] Moderators delete the reported posts because now these posts are irrelevant in the discussion
[f.] He removes everything from the main topic and makes it an empty topic
[g.] He reports the empty topic to the moderator
[h.] Finally the moderator wipes out the entire topic.
I haven't seen a single report from Ratimov for a long time, and even more so about his own topics. I will even clarify: I have not seen a single report on topics edited by Ratimov. By the way, I found out that he edits his topics and for some reason moves them to the Russian board only when I was mentioned in the topic Ratimov is deleting posts in a self-moderated topic

A little later I checked the history of his topics (Ratimov) and really found a lot of edited topics in the Russian forum. They can be divided into two types:
1. Topics where he edited only his own messages, and the posts of other users remained untouched
2. Topics where everything is deleted, and the first post is edited.

I sent the first type to the archive (probably this was not part of his plans), since I believe that other users should not lose messages because of these strange actions. And often you can understand the meaning there even without the first post
I made notes for myself to know that these topics are in the archive, just in case he moves them to the Russian forum again.

The second type of topics in which there is no sense at all, I sent to Trashcan.

I sincerely do not understand why Ratimov did all this, since many topics have been useful and relevant so far. To be honest, I was hoping that he would answer this question himself.

I would not like to put the second moderator in a difficult position, but I was honestly surprised by the answer of Xal0lex:
I haven't personally counted how many topics I've deleted. Maybe 10, maybe more. And plus at the moment there are a few more of Ratimov's garbage topics in the section, which will also be deleted in time. You can go to the section yourself and see how many of these topics there are at the moment. You can also go to modlog and do the math yourself.
Once again: I found out about garbage topics only after I was mentioned and I started checking Radimov's message history. How could anyone have found out about this before? That there are many similar garbage topics in the Russian forum? After all, they are old and do not appear in the top of the Russian root. I didn't understand that.

In any case, only administrators can check the actions of moderators, and we (moderators) do not know who is doing what

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October 29, 2023, 08:55:17 AM
Merited by hugeblack (4)
 #5

shouldn't have gone unpunished is moving trash-topics into another board:

Then again, users often get away with many bad posts without getting banned.
I recall back where nutildah got banned because he was moving his thread and ignored warning from a moderator. The difference is moderator who handle Ratimov's post agree with that, while this one he was not agree.

How you can expect many bad posts will be banned when people who commit clear plagiarized posts aren't get banned?

Ratimov's posts isn't that entirely bad, despite translating using tools, his posts are useful too.

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October 29, 2023, 09:04:40 AM
 #6

Quite a long post, but I took a little time to read the OP's post. It seems I don't have the capacity to express an opinion here. But I would like to have a little opinion.

For advanced identification, it sounds good. But if the moderator has to see the PM and publish it to the forum then I think that's too deep and the PM is someone's secret. Everyone has secrets and I don't think it's ethical to share anything in PM with the public

JOLLYGOOD DT TRUST ABUSE
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October 29, 2023, 09:24:09 AM
 #7

Quite a long post, but I took a little time to read the OP's post. It seems I don't have the capacity to express an opinion here. But I would like to have a little opinion.
You can keep reading. Reading only.

Quote
For advanced identification, it sounds good. But if the moderator has to see the PM and publish it to the forum then I think that's too deep and the PM is someone's secret. Everyone has secrets and I don't think it's ethical to share anything in PM with the public
PMs here are Personal Messages but they are not Private Messages. Forum admins can decrypt your message and if you don't trust them, don't send any PM.
Quote
Note: PM privacy is not guaranteed. Encrypt sensitive messages.

Discussion about it
PM privacy is not guaranteed. Encrypt sensitive messages.

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October 29, 2023, 09:33:45 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2023, 10:03:11 AM by LoyceV
 #8

Ratimov's posts isn't that entirely bad, despite translating using tools, his posts are useful too.
Agreed. But I wasn't talking about those, I was talking about the posts that were edited into this:
Moving them into another board means he was spamming that board.

Forum admins can decrypt your message
PMs aren't encrypted.

Forum database includes PMs, deleted PMs, is encrypted and only admins, global moderators have access to database.
You're talking about backups. This is irrelevant.

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October 29, 2023, 09:46:12 AM
 #9

PMs aren't encrypted.
Forum database includes PMs, deleted PMs, is encrypted and only admins, global moderators have access to database.

Bitcointalk.org Privacy concern question
Deleted posts are almost never removed from the database. A PM is removed from the database if the sender and all recipients delete it.

Full database backups are created daily, and all global moderators and admins can download the (encrypted) backups and implement their own rotation policies.

they can download the backup to have it at multiple locations, but it's useless for them because they don't have the decryption key

This.

Only me, Gavin, Satoshi, and Sirius can decrypt it.

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October 29, 2023, 09:50:47 AM
 #10

Yes, I've also seen lately that quite a number of (older) posts got deleted. And all were in Ratimov's self moderated topics. Then I've seen that it's not only my posts that are removed, the whole topics got emptied.


While it's far from nice behavior on the forum, I knew the risk for this when I've posted in self-moderated topics.
It's a bit shame, since although he made a lot of good and informative topics, he acts highly questionable now and then.

But from there to questionable actions of mods... it still one more step, and a pretty big one.

I don't know to what extent the moderators of the local Russian board may be in cahoots with him

He is not a new member and it's normal that he has friends on the forum. If some of the mods are indeed "covering" him it's not a great thing to hear. It can be also normal mod tasks, as LoyceV said.
Can it be checked only from history (loyce.club, ninjastic.space), logs, bpip... if somebody has the time and willingness? While it can happen for mods to act incorrectly, even willingly, I am also not convinced that theymos should go into PMs (but I am not worried, I am 99% sure he will not), especially as this kind of things can be discussed easily outside of the forum.

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October 29, 2023, 09:59:54 AM
 #11

PMs aren't encrypted.
Forum database includes PMs, deleted PMs, is encrypted and only admins, global moderators have access to database.
I think it two different things, PMs aren't encrypted, so when both of the sender and receiver(s) aren't delete the message, Theymos can easily check the message by visiting one of them.

But when both sender and receiver(s) deleted the message, they (Theymos, Gavin, Satoshi, and Sirius) can access the PMs through the database which need to decrypt it.

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October 29, 2023, 10:30:04 AM
 #12

I would expect Ratimov to give some explanation as to why so many threads moved and deleted, as I said in another thread, but at this stage he doesn't seem to want to give any. Apart from the fact that I don't think he can give any that aren't outlandish on the subject.

While it's far from nice behavior on the forum, I knew the risk for this when I've posted in self-moderated topics.
It's a bit shame, since although he made a lot of good and informative topics, he acts highly questionable now and then.

Yeah but it's one thing when you post in a self moderated thread you know you risk having your post deleted maybe because the author simply doesn't like you or something. It's quite another for a highly reputable member of the forum who is at the top of several rankings on bpip.org to massively delete self moderated threads where significant issues have been addressed and merit has been given in them. That's not what the self-moderation function was intended for, I believe.

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October 29, 2023, 10:33:34 AM
 #13

Yeah but it's one thing when you post in a self moderated thread you know you risk having your post deleted maybe because the author simply doesn't like you or something.

Well, I tend to believe that after I've distrusted him he doesn't like me anymore...
However, I know I'm not the center of the world, so it's most probably more than that. He may be angry now on pretty much the whole forum. But maybe I'm wrong; it's only him who can tell, but, sadly, I am not convinced that he will give a honest answer (if any).

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October 29, 2023, 12:47:22 PM
 #14

At some point it was discovered that Ratimov was following a very simple strategy to cover up his past and current evil activities to achieve whatever goal he has. The steps are following [the order of the steps can be different in case by case but it is believed that the executions were very similar as explained in the following]
[a.] He moves his topics to Archive
[b.] He deletes his own posts
[c.] He moves the topic to the Russian local board. This is where Russian moderators come into our knowledge.
[d.] He reports other's posts from the topics.
[e.] Moderators delete the reported posts because now these posts are irrelevant in the discussion
[f.] He removes everything from the main topic and makes it an empty topic
[g.] He reports the empty topic to the moderator
[h.] Finally the moderator wipes out the entire topic.

A very lengthy but simple and effective strategy to wipe out any unwanted record. Anyone can delete their past posts which is not wrong but the way the whole things were done, it was not usual.  It definitely is questionable. So questions were asked, we had our speculations too.

This raise concern that why he preferred to move an English topic to a non-English board [his local of-course] and expected it to be deleted or already deleted.
Therefore, unless Xal0lex was his "pal" for deleting evidence from Archival board as well, it means that some other mod helped him.

You're falling into conspiracy theories. If you followed a modlog you'd seen that there was no massive deleting of posts in those topics by mods. There was only massive deletion of emptied topics with nonsense subjects. You can check it even without archives because actual log is still containing that data. I'm not a mod in here, but I'm sure that cleaning from nonsense is a mods job. I didn't report any on these topics because I didn't see them before they are being deleted, but if I've seen them, I'd reported them. I do report such nonsense in other cases.

Making an own small research before blaming someone in something could be good. Wink

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October 29, 2023, 06:43:46 PM
 #15

I don't like what he did once with a thread I posted on, but I managed to deal with it, after all they are "moderators" all we can do is complaining, but now talking about PMs, merits, being in cahoots etc, is a bit childish because there are several archives available to access, so there is no hiding things.

What bothers me, did you guys discuss about plagiarizing before or not? So if it was already discussed, it makes no sense to delete old posts now, if he had nothing to hide, why trying to hide it now while he knows it can not be erased from archives?

"Anyways, I know it hurts when you get several of your posts deleted in a short amount of time, especially when you are in a campaign, I wish we could throw a couple of hundreds on the table to compensate for the lost posts, nobody would have bothered to complain then."


I'm speaking from psychological viewpoint in the quoted paragraph above, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.😘

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October 30, 2023, 01:55:33 AM
 #16

I haven't seen a single report from Ratimov for a long time, and even more so about his own topics. I will even clarify: I have not seen a single report on topics edited by Ratimov.
Quote
How could anyone have found out about this before? That there are many similar garbage topics in the Russian forum? After all, they are old and do not appear in the top of the Russian root. I didn't understand that.
Does look more fishy. The topics/posts were not reported but Xal0lex have managed to found 30 topics [we have no data how many posts] and deleted them! I too don't understand that and for sure many others will not.

Quote
I would not like to put the second moderator in a difficult position, but I was honestly surprised by the answer of Xal0lex:
I haven't personally counted how many topics I've deleted. Maybe 10, maybe more. And plus at the moment there are a few more of Ratimov's garbage topics in the section, which will also be deleted in time. You can go to the section yourself and see how many of these topics there are at the moment. You can also go to modlog and do the math yourself.
Unfortunately he is in a difficult position now.

Quote
I sent the first type to the archive (probably this was not part of his plans), since I believe that other users should not lose messages because of these strange actions. And often you can understand the meaning there even without the first post
I made notes for myself to know that these topics are in the archive, just in case he moves them to the Russian forum again.

The second type of topics in which there is no sense at all, I sent to Trashcan.

I sincerely do not understand why Ratimov did all this, since many topics have been useful and relevant so far. To be honest, I was hoping that he would answer this question himself.
That's exactly what responsibility means. The other mod seems ignored and, deliberately avoided the point on the other topic in his responses.  

Quote
A little later I checked the history of his topics (Ratimov) and really found a lot of edited topics in the Russian forum. They can be divided into two types:
1. Topics where he edited only his own messages, and the posts of other users remained untouched
2. Topics where everything is deleted, and the first post is edited.
Thank you for giving a clear idea of how it was done. In the second type we assume these were self-moderated threads. The first type were regular topics, he deleted his own posts, emptied the main topic and then local mod [Xal0lex] cleaned it up.

Xal0lex would you help us to understand how you found the topics/posts to clean up if they were not reported?

You're falling into conspiracy theories. If you followed a modlog you'd seen that there was no massive deleting of posts in those topics by mods. There was only massive deletion of emptied topics with nonsense subjects. You can check it even without archives because actual log is still containing that data. I'm not a mod in here, but I'm sure that cleaning from nonsense is a mods job. I didn't report any on these topics because I didn't see them before they are being deleted, but if I've seen them, I'd reported them. I do report such nonsense in other cases.

Making an own small research before blaming someone in something could be good. Wink
Have you started your research from this topic from GazetaBitcoin? I will appreciate any input from anyone who have read that topic then read the 2nd topic from LoyceV.

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October 30, 2023, 04:23:34 AM
Merited by klarki (2)
 #17

You're falling into conspiracy theories. If you followed a modlog you'd seen that there was no massive deleting of posts in those topics by mods. There was only massive deletion of emptied topics with nonsense subjects. You can check it even without archives because actual log is still containing that data. I'm not a mod in here, but I'm sure that cleaning from nonsense is a mods job. I didn't report any on these topics because I didn't see them before they are being deleted, but if I've seen them, I'd reported them. I do report such nonsense in other cases.

Making an own small research before blaming someone in something could be good. Wink
Have you started your research from this topic from GazetaBitcoin? I will appreciate any input from anyone who have read that topic then read the 2nd topic from LoyceV.

Of course. I follow the situation and see lots of personal involvement of some users in all that. And I didn't want to be involved in those personal vendettas. But those vendettas are tending to grow unfortunately.

I don't know why did Ratimov delete posts in his topics and crashed some other topics and I hardly can support this way of dealing with forum, but a statement that he did it "to cover up his past and current evil activities" was not proved. All those topics are still available in different archives including ninjastic.space and loyce.club, so if there is anything compromising it should not be so hard to show that. But as for now I see only a statement about that based on an old discussion about plagiarism held several years ago which had no consequences then. And then basing on that statement which has no proofs moderators of Russian board are blamed in that they are sock-puppets because they are doing their job on cleaning the forum.

I already showed that at least one your statement is totally wrong, there was no situation when "Moderators delete the reported posts because now these posts are irrelevant in the discussion". You made an assumption and blamed someone, not trying to check if your suspicion is true.

I can say that I saw some cases when dozens of posts of some users were deleted and those users were not banned for incorrect behavior. If it is a personal case for you, it doesn't mean that it should be the same for others. If you'd asked why wasn't a user banned for that, it could be expected, but you preferred to blame moderators for doing a good job.

I see many assumptions in the topic and very few facts. If you want to convince me, I want to see provable facts. Exact links to the topics on ninjastic.space with explanation why are they compromising, with additional links on proofs etc, so everyone could check it and be sure that it is so. And showing that deleting those topics hides some important information to show why are you blaming moderators for their job.

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October 30, 2023, 07:00:25 AM
Merited by 1miau (1)
 #18

Xal0lex would you help us to understand how you found the topics/posts to clean up if they were not reported?

I'm going to dare to answer you and make a wild guess and I hope that I will not get dragged into this tsunami of shit, but Xal0lex probably used the "Show the last topics started by this person" function.

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October 30, 2023, 10:29:50 AM
Merited by xandry (8), Halab (2)
 #19

~ probably used the "Show the last topics started by this person" function.
Even easier: Search topics. You can quickly find the very short topic titles, nicely kept in Archival.

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October 30, 2023, 12:14:35 PM
 #20

Xal0lex would you help us to understand how you found the topics/posts to clean up if they were not reported?

If you go to the root of the Russian section, you will see a list of topics at the bottom. So I saw two trash topics in this list. Naturally, I deleted them. And then I decided to go through the whole list and found a lot of such topics. Again, I deleted several topics. And then I realized that something was wrong and that it looked very suspicious, so I didn't touch those topics anymore.

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