A Simple Reason Why Bitcoin is not Money

[Fivestar4everMVP]

Why is it so hard for you people to address the actual argument? If the OP is to complex for you to comprehend, if the summary is to complex, if one sentence is to complex, let me express the argument in a single word: purpose.

A pyramid scheme means investing purposeful items, and being unable to return such items without new investors. Real estate, precious stones and metals are purposeful so you don't need new investors to get purposeful items back - you already have them.

Money means purposeful item because the fulfilment of a purpose generates a specific amount of benefit that is then compared with the amount of benefit generated by good and services.

Virtual points (bitcoins) that a protocol assigned to an address have no purpose that can be fulfilled. So, if you trade something purposeful for these points, by definition, you need new investors to give you something purposeful - and that's pyramid-style scheme. Also, due to the lack of a purpose there's no pivot for comparing these points with goods and services which is why they are not money.

Can you now start addressing the argument or a single word is to complex as well?

Well, first and foremost, where is this argument heading to actually? What exactly do you want to achieve with it?
If for example, we all decide to agree with you now, then what? Are you going to tell us all to sell our bitcoins and abandon it because you believe it's not purposeful? Or because you believe is a pyramid-style scheme type of investment?

Well, this argument is baseless, and I believe there are high market professionals who have invested a lot of time to study bitcoin, and at the end of the day, they end up investing heavily in it, if they saw that bitcoin has no purpose, and it's a pyramid-style scheme as you called it, they wouldn't invest, and maybe if the world does not see bitcoin as important, it wouldn't be worth over $30,000 dollars today.

You have probably made up your mind, it's useless trying to convince you.

[Rruchi man]

I sense some hostility against bitcoins, but this your opinion of bitcoin is based on lack of understanding.

If Bitcoin is not money, then what is it? Well, it is a means of recording membership in some kind of decentralized and self-governing pyramid scheme. Members invest purposeful items in it - goods, services and money. They then get recorded by the peer-to-peer network with a certain number of points. Finally, they wait for new investors so they can get out of the scheme. Without new investors, they cannot get purposeful items back - which is how all pyramid schemes operate. Since the Bitcoin scheme is online and thus global, early members made huge profits, which caused great public interest and created a considerable membership base. It is estimated that today the scheme has more than 200 million members.

Bitcoin is no way a pyramid scheme, it is very far and different from it and shares no attribute that you can say is similar to pyramid schemes.

Some attributes of Pyramid schemes are;_source

Emphasis on recruitment
If there’s a program that’s placing a lot emphasis on getting others to join – as opposed to selling a product or service – chances are that it’s illegal.

If you invest in bitcoins, you do not need to bring two or any required number of persons. You can talk to people to try out this opportunity, but you are not under any form of pressure for them to join under you.

Promises of high returns within a short time
If one is being offered a way to make quick cash within a very short time, they should be skeptical about such schemes. The only way a program can yield quick profits is if payments from new recruits are being used to pay off early investors.

HODL as long as you can, no one told you that you were going to be rich in two weeks when you invest in bitcoins.

[jeraldskie11]

So here we have the same problem as in my previous thread - the responders are ignoring my arguments and talk about completely irrelevant stuff.

Let's repeat the arguments in the simplest form.

A) Why's Bitcoin not money?
Because it is purposeless. Meaning, when bitcoins are bought they can never be used for anything, and whoever holds them must ultimately sold them - dump them on someone else.

How do you know Bitcoin serves no purpose? If you believe fiat money serves a purpose, you will believe Bitcoin does as well, though in a more innovative way. First of all, Bitcoin provides something that fiat money does not: security of people's funds. If you have Bitcoin, you can be sure that you are safe as long as you keep the private key/passphrase correctly; unlike fiat, you cannot physically hold a large amount because it will endanger your life. Second, it will be simpler to pay for or receive goods without revealing your identity. In this manner, the bad guys have no chance with you.

[lizarder]

Currency can be interpreted as a medium of exchange used by all people and one country's currency is different from another country's currency. The essence of currency can be seen as a medium of exchange authorized by a controlled government and we are the only owners who can make payments for any purchases. Bitcoin is not a physical currency and its perfection cannot be manipulated with current amounts and bitcoin is a currency for the owner who owns it and cannot be controlled by anyone.

The pyramid scheme that I understand is different from the bitcoin system and we are more familiar with the pyramid system as a fraud involving a multi-level marketing system. So trying to generalize the general level for both is a mistake in thinking because when you own bitcoin you are the one who manages it.

[DooMAD]

What I don't understand is how are you not bored with it and do you really believe that you will change anyone's opinion here?

I'm guessing they suffer from the same personality disorder as other forum trolls like franky1.  Aside from the multiple accounts, the similarities between them are striking.  They base every argument they've ever made on fanciful notions that only exist in their imagination.  No one accepts their flawed premise, so they set themselves on repeat like a braindead parrot, somehow expecting a different outcome.  And then getting pissy when no one takes them seriously.  Same toxic behaviour.

Seems the world is full of narcissistic sociopaths with too much spare time on their hands.

[uchegod-21]

It works as money because it is exchanged but is not money because it is purposeless.

Ain't you contradicting yourself here?

Money is anything that is generally accepted by the people and serves as medium of exchange,  store of value and unit of account.  Bitcoin is not purposeless,  it is a commodity money because it has intrinsic value. While it serves as a means of exchange,  it is also serving as an investment for others. For anything to be called money,  it should be able to meet the following functions.

• means of exchange
• store of value
• unit of account

Bitcoin has met the above criteria. Bitcoin can be used to make payments. El Salvador has already adopted it and it is working perfectly fine. It is obviously a store of value,  this is why it is called the digital gold. Bitcoin is highly divisible which means, it can serve as a unit of account. Bitcoin is a digital currency!

I do not agree with you that bitcoin is purposeless.  The only challenge bitcoin is having right now is general acceptance.

[Ojima-ojo]

The whole discussion looks like a conspiracy theory to me because at most what the opsares trying to put out is total baseless arguments and comparisons that have nothing to prove or show for it at most and this sounds liketotal fundss, just a run through ops history made me realize that this topic is just one of the many of it type checking out by the ops.


It either the ops lack the requisite knowledge about what he is putting up here and there or he is deliberately doing so to gain attention, but either of the two is not a good approach for the ops, bitcoin vs money or Bitcoin is money regardless of which one comes first makesake no difference.

[Onyeeze]

It seems you have not understand what is bitcoin and what is money, a money is used for buying of goods and services why bitcoin is something we use for buying of goods and services, whatever money does is what bitcoin can do, its because bitcoin is not centralized and that is why some of you is condemning bitcoin as if is not a currency like fiat currency, have you asked yourself why bitcoin can be use in exchange of other items, so I think we need to change from condemning bitcoin as not a currency, it's a currency but it has not being legalized generally

[oktana]

First! What is Money? Money is a medium of exchange and store of value that is widely accepted in transactions for goods, services, or the settlement of debts. Money can have various forms, like physical currency (coins and banknotes) or digital representations (bank deposits and cryptocurrencies) which are virtual. Money doesn't have to be paper; as long as you can use it to pay for something (deposited money in the bank or cryptocurrency), it is Money. Two main features of money I'd like to point out are Divisibility and Portability, these are common with any currency. Bitcoin is just as Divisible (in fact even more divisible than the currency of any nation, and that even makes it more money-like) as local currencies. It is equally as portable (even more) as other currencies. Additionally, you can buy or sell it just like you can do with any other currency. What then do you mean by saying Bitcoin is not Money? Cause that sounds to me like saying Rottweilers are not dogs (just because you got too used to Chihuahuas) 

[Stalker22]

Why is it so hard for you people to address the actual argument? If the OP is to complex for you to comprehend, if the summary is to complex, if one sentence is to complex, let me express the argument in a single word: purpose.

So, from what you are saying, it doesnt really have an actual purpose? But then why is it even a thing that exists? I dont get it - why do folks use something that doesnt have a real purpose?

Are you saying Bitcoin isnt even a real thing at all? That it is just made up numbers or something? Im lost here and  it seems to exist since people use it, but you are saying it has no purpose.  Help me wrap my head around how something can exist but not have an underlying reason for existing in the first place.  The whole concept is confusing to me.

[Rikafip]

It either the ops lack the requisite knowledge about what he is putting up here and there or he is deliberately doing so to gain attention, but either of the two is not a good approach for the ops, bitcoin vs money or Bitcoin is money regardless of which one comes first makesake no difference.

OP is a troll and ban evader who is exploiting the fact that forum stuff is not easy on banning so he can continue with his little scheme of showing up few times per year with a new account, spreading his nonsense and enjoying the attention he gets every time.

What people here don't understand is that it's pointless to try have any kind of serious conversation because he is not interested in that at all.

[suzanne5223]

I am still waiting for someone to address my argument:

Due to the lack of a practical purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and it is impossible for market participants to perform a rational trade.

But for some odd reason, everyone vehemently refuse to address it. It's hilariously funny to watch this show.

Everyone refuses to address what you said because your claim lacks a good sense of Bitcoin understanding and if anyone in their right sense tries to convince you of something you never agree on or tries to accept the fact then such person is making a fool of him/herself.
Based on your claim Bitcoin is not money but you said "Money is defined as a commodity that can be used to buy any other commodity. Or as a medium of exchange, a store of value and a unit of account. " which is all a potential BTC has.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

How do you know Bitcoin serves no purpose? If you believe fiat money serves a purpose, you will believe Bitcoin does as well, though in a more innovative way. First of all, Bitcoin provides something that fiat money does not: security of people's funds.

No better fact put up, just some blind argument with no defined purpose for the thread. It makes me remember an old friend from my childhood who would always say that without the government and the rules that govern human rights, a country would be very peaceful and do so well. He only blatantly says it, but there is nothing reasonable to back it up. I assume OP just came up with this from somewhere, and without doing any research or inquiry, he just blatantly opened the topic. Why there are other reasonable arguments to raise this dumb one is what he can think of. More like a newbie who's just in the space and claiming to know something they don't actually know.

[Ale88]

Now we finally come to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is said to be money. But is that true? Given the above, we can determine this quite easily. All we need to do is answer the following question: can Bitcoin be used for a concrete, practical purpose besides being traded? And here the answer is resolutely - no. Namely, the way Bitcoin was created, is that its author came up with a protocol that assigns virtual points (bitcoins). Points are assigned to bitcoin addresses and stored in a peer-to-peer database. However, whichever owner of an address holds the points, cannot do anything with them except send them to another bitcoin address. They can only exchange them on the market, i.e. use them as a means of exchange. Therefore, no practical purpose exists for which bitcoins would be withdrawn from the market and whose fulfillment would generate a specific amount of benefit to the holders. Consequently, there is no value to estimate. Due to the absence of a value as a reference for how many bitcoins is worth accepting for goods or services, market participants do that blindly. For example, they used to give two pizzas for 10 thousand bitcoins, and today they give the equivalent of a whooping 1,000 houses for the same number of bitcoins. This is a nice practical confirmation of the fact that Bitcoin is not money. It works as money because it is exchanged but is not money because it is purposeless.

If Bitcoin is not money, then what is it? Well, it is a means of recording membership in some kind of decentralized and self-governing pyramid scheme. Members invest purposeful items in it - goods, services and money. They then get recorded by the peer-to-peer network with a certain number of points. Finally, they wait for new investors so they can get out of the scheme. Without new investors, they cannot get purposeful items back - which is how all pyramid schemes operate. Since the Bitcoin scheme is online and thus global, early members made huge profits, which caused great public interest and created a considerable membership base. It is estimated that today the scheme has more than 200 million members.

Satoshi himself defines bitcoin as "purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash", the fact that there is trading behind it is just part of the process. I don't understand why you say that bitcoin can't be used for concrete cases besides being traded: there are plenty of business that accept bitcoin, just because is not as popular as cash or credit cards doesn't mean that can't be used. Let's not forget that in was created not even 15 years, what do you expect?

[rodskee]

You have started 3 threads and all are against Bitcoin/cryptocurrencies and favoring FIAT

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;threads;u=3557311;sa=showPosts

I don't know what's your problem against crypto and why you are still here , don't you have any plans
of finding your path? because like all your concerns are not for this forum and we are not caring about your points because no
matter what you say we will continue supporting and using Bitcoin.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this says according to Forbes :

Is Bitcoin a kind of money? Economists say that money performs three functions. It serves as:

1- A unit of account: It helps people understand how much wealth they have.
2- A medium of exchange: People use it to facilitate trade, to carry out transactions.
3- A store of value: People feel comfortable holding their wealth in it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rmiller/2021/03/23/bitcoin-is-a-cryptocurrency-but-is-it-money/?sh=47737e5d1dda

[thecodebear]

So here we have the same problem as in my previous thread - the responders are ignoring my arguments and talk about completely irrelevant stuff.

Let's repeat the arguments in the simplest form.

A) Why's Bitcoin not money?
Because it is purposeless. Meaning, when bitcoins are bought they can never be used for anything, and whoever holds them must ultimately sold them - dump them on someone else.

Due to the lack of a purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and is, thus, impossible to perform a rational trade.

B) Why is Bitcoin a pyramid-style scheme?
Because whoever invested purposeful items in it cannot get such items back without new investors.

So, it's not about definitions. It's about reality. In reality Bitcoin is purposeless and existing investors need new investors to get out. Definitions cannot change reality.

Well, as convincing enough as this looks, I definitely will want to agree with you that bitcoin is not money per say, in general terms though, most especially, when we try to look at what the true definition of money is.
But coming back to other vices, Bitcoin is still a medium of exchange and an asset that can be invested in, and i completely disagree that bitcoin is a pyramid style scheme, this argument of yours is completely false
Think about investing in gold, think about investing in shares, think about investing in real estate, think about investing in landed properties, houses, think about investing in precious stones and metals like silver, diamond and the likes. All this I mentioned requires new investors for previous investors to get out in profit, does this make all of them a pyramid scheme? i need a NO or a YES answer from you.
if your answer is NO, then it means bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, but if your answer is YES, then, indeed, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme to you and people with the same mindset as you.

Why is it so hard for you people to address the actual argument? If the OP is to complex for you to comprehend, if the summary is to complex, if one sentence is to complex, let me express the argument in a single word: purpose.

A pyramid scheme means investing purposeful items, and being unable to return such items without new investors. Real estate, precious stones and metals are purposeful so you don't need new investors to get purposeful items back - you already have them.

Money means purposeful item because the fulfilment of a purpose generates a specific amount of benefit that is then compared with the amount of benefit generated by good and services.

Virtual points (bitcoins) that a protocol assigned to an address have no purpose that can be fulfilled. So, if you trade something purposeful for these points, by definition, you need new investors to give you something purposeful - and that's pyramid-style scheme. Also, due to the lack of a purpose there's no pivot for comparing these points with goods and services which is why they are not money.

Can you now start addressing the argument or a single word is to complex as well?

OP, you've just confused yourself into a mess haha.

Just saying the word 'purpose' a lot doesn't make an argument ;p
Referring to other currencies as "money" and then referring to bitcoin as "virtual points" also isn't an argument. Fiat currency in a bank account would also be "virtual points".

You seem to not understand the basic point of money. Money in and of itself isn't a "purposeful item", as you suggest it is. Money is a non-perishable placeholder for goods/services.

The point of money is to hold some value (though the value may go up or down over time due to market/economic forces) so it can at any time be traded with others for goods or services. Whether you use bitcoin or USD or pesos or yen or euros or whatever, it all works the same way. Money is (1) a placeholder for value (2) to trade for good or services. This operates the exact same way no matter what currency you use. It doesn't change based on the specific currency because it has nothing to do with the specific currency. Money is a concept. It always works like this. Bitcoin, like all those other currencies, is an implementation of the concept of money.

Specific implementations of the concept of money (a currency) can be better or worse. Bitcoin happens to be a very good money by design. How good any individual fiat currency is depends on the strength and stability of the nation's economy and government, but over the long term they are pretty weak because their supply is entirely controlled by people rather than by essentially immutable nature (gold) or an immutable protocol (bitcoin).

And the primary way this concept of money works is through acceptance/liquidity. If nobody accepts that a dollar is worth a certain amount of value then it won't work as an implementation of money. Bitcoin has wide stable global acceptance to be worth its value at every second of every day. There are many billions of dollars of volume on crypto exchanges proving this every single day. If it was very hard to trade USD for goods or services or other currencies it wouldn't really be working as a currency, because it wouldn't have any liquidity if you literally can't use it in any way. Same as if you got some bitcoin and it was very difficult to exchange it in any way (no liquidity) it wouldn't really be working as a currency. No liquidity means no desire to accept it. But there are millions of people everyday willing to accept bitcoin in exchange for other currencies or other cryptos, and in some places already in exchange for goods and services.

In your language of "purpose", bitcoin has every bit the purpose as any other currency - it is widely accepted to be a certain value, widely desired by others so it has liquidity, and is a placeholder for value to trade at a later time.

[JamesNZ]

And still, nothing changes. Ad hominem attacks, red herrings, opinions, theories, irrelevant points, and the usual crypto propaganda. But not a single responder addressed the argument.

It is really fascinating how everyone vehemently refuses to discuss about the reality so simple and so obvious.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

A) Why's Bitcoin not money?
Because it is purposeless. Meaning, when bitcoins are bought they can never be used for anything, and whoever holds them must ultimately sold them - dump them on someone else.

Due to the lack of a purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and is, thus, impossible to perform a rational trade.

Let me use your words exactly, purposeless means aimless, meaningless but Bitcoin does have aim, its aim is to be used as a decentralized P2P payment method and although it hasn't fully achieved this when it comes to adoption but that doesn't mean people aren't using it as a P2P payment currency. Just because we see more of centralized services dominating the industry doesn't mean we don't have those using Bitcoin as it was intended to be used. What is money if I may ask, according to google; (money is a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes.) Isn't Bitcoin been used as a medium of exchange or isn't that it's purposes?, the population using Bitcoin as a means of exchange isn't large but that doesn't mean it isn't been used. It has been legally accepted in some countries as a medium of exchange while in other countries although it isn't been legalized but still it's been ued as we have services accepting Bitcoin as a means of payment.

B) Why is Bitcoin a pyramid-style scheme?
Because whoever invested purposeful items in it cannot get such items back without new investors.

That's just your mindset and not the reality, if we're talking about ponzi schemes then fiat is more of a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is a digital currency and its investment features are just like any other currency trading in the market. People invest in USD and hold it and for you to make profits they have to sell to the new investors coming into the market. People buy stocks and sell to new investors coming into the market. When it's an investment the earlier buyers sells to others coming into the market later and that's just how it works. Currencies can be used as an Investment too so that's what is just happening with Bitcoin. Ponzi scheme businesses don't have any utility but rely on new users to continue operating but Bitcoin don't rely on new users as it can be traded over and over again, new users are just an additional bonus that increase the adoption.

[Assface16678]

What I don't understand is how are you not bored with it and do you really believe that you will change anyone's opinion here?

I'm guessing they suffer from the same personality disorder as other forum trolls like franky1.  Aside from the multiple accounts, the similarities between them are striking.  They base every argument they've ever made on fanciful notions that only exist in their imagination.  No one accepts their flawed premise, so they set themselves on repeat like a braindead parrot, somehow expecting a different outcome.  And then getting pissy when no one takes them seriously.  Same toxic behaviour.

Seems the world is full of narcissistic sociopaths with too much spare time on their hands.

I agree. I guess there is something with their minds about doing posts like that, which is that we know what the outcome will be. This is a cryptocurrency forum or a bitcoin-related forum, and they hope that anyone will take their side just because they have a long post saying sh*t about bitcoin and still pursuing others that bitcoin is not money. It is a morey in the form of digital currency. I guess he is one of the boomers who can't accept the advancement of technology and how powerful bitcoin is right now.

If bitcoin is not truly money, then why have many people invested in it and gotten a profit? Or have many millionaires gotten rich because of bitcoin? It may not be the money we used like fiat, but that's because bitcoin is the new or future money and currency. If they don't want to consider bitcoin money, then let them be; they are just missing out on a big opportunity.

[JamesNZ]

A) Why's Bitcoin not money?
Because it is purposeless. Meaning, when bitcoins are bought they can never be used for anything, and whoever holds them must ultimately sold them - dump them on someone else.

Due to the lack of a purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and is, thus, impossible to perform a rational trade.

Let me use your words exactly, purposeless means aimless, meaningless but Bitcoin does have aim, its aim is to be used as a decentralized P2P payment method and although it hasn't fully achieved this when it comes to adoption but that doesn't mean people aren't using it as a P2P payment currency. Just because we see more of centralized services dominating the industry doesn't mean we don't have those using Bitcoin as it was intended to be used. What is money if I may ask, according to google; (money is a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes.) Isn't Bitcoin been used as a medium of exchange or isn't that it's purposes?, the population using Bitcoin as a means of exchange isn't large but that doesn't mean it isn't been used. It has been legally accepted in some countries as a medium of exchange while in other countries although it isn't been legalized but still it's been ued as we have services accepting Bitcoin as a means of payment.

B) Why is Bitcoin a pyramid-style scheme?
Because whoever invested purposeful items in it cannot get such items back without new investors.

That's just your mindset and not the reality, if we're talking about ponzi schemes then fiat is more of a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is a digital currency and its investment features are just like any other currency trading in the market. People invest in USD and hold it and for you to make profits they have to sell to the new investors coming into the market. People buy stocks and sell to new investors coming into the market. When it's an investment the earlier buyers sells to others coming into the market later and that's just how it works. Currencies can be used as an Investment too so that's what is just happening with Bitcoin. Ponzi scheme businesses don't have any utility but rely on new users to continue operating but Bitcoin don't rely on new users as it can be traded over and over again, new users are just an additional bonus that increase the adoption.

Let's me help you because I see you have problems with understanding the basics concepts of reality. Consider this experiment. Suppose you are an extremely rich person and you pay off all the current participants of the Bitcoin pyramid scheme. Or as you people would say, you buy all the bitcoins in circulation.With the current prices that's 692,167,490,070 USD. After that all the Bitcoin trading stops.

Now, if Bitcoin is purposeful that means you would somehow have to use it to help people or yourself, that is, get some kind of benefit from your bitcoins. So, can you do that? You've just spent a tone of money and now you hold all the bitcoins. What can you do with your purchase? Well, you cannot do a damn thing. You just watch number 19,528,325 on the screen and that's it. Your bitcoins are completely useless and purposeless.

But now let's apply our experiment to something purposeful. Food. Suppose you bought food for $692,167,490,070 USD. With such a purchase you could feed a lot of hungry people for a long time. That's what it means for something to have a purpose in reality - it can benefit people. You see how simple it is? What about euros? What if you bought euros for $692,167,490,070 USD? Well, euros are issued as debt owed to the banks. Their purpose is to be returned to the banks. That means that with your purchase you could make a lot of people happy by paying off their loan debt. You could save them from foreclosures upon their property. That's what it means for something to have a purpose in reality - it can benefit people. Purpose is not something that you can come up with in your imagination. No matter what you say about Bitcoin, no matter think about Bitcoin, in reality, Bitcoin is still purposeless, worthless and useless. It always was and it always will be.