Wasabi Wallet - Total Privacy For Bitcoin

[Kruw]

Lol. Read again what I've asked, and then what you've quoted.

You asked for a post that shows you convincing people that giving up control of your coins was necessary to obtain privacy:

Find me one post of mine where I am convinced or have convinced another person that giving up control of your coins is necessary to attain privacy.

I provided a post where you claimed that forfeiting custody was required because privacy "falls short at the protocol level":

Yes, I want to advertise privacy enhancing services, I believe it's a fundamental right, which we fall short in a protocol level.

[BlackHatCoiner]

We do fall short on a protocol level. That does not mean that giving up custody is a necessity. It's simply a choice, given certain tradeoffs. Nowhere have I stated that using mixers is the only way to have privacy.

Try harder.

[Kruw]

We do fall short on a protocol level.

We don't fall short on a protocol level, there's multiple coinjoin protocols that provide privacy on Bitcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5482818.msg63551707

That does not mean that giving up custody is a necessity. It's simply a choice, given certain tradeoffs.

When you used the word "require", you implied "necessity" which is the opposite of "choice".

Nonetheless, there exist legit services which require you to forfeit custody, and you'll have to grasp that part.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Coinjoins are optional, and can't even compete other protocols, such as Monero. To me, that means falling short on a protocol level.

There are also centralized exchanges which require you to forfeit custody. That does not mean you can't have custody of your bitcoin.

That's basic English, TwistyPhrasy.

[Kruw]

Coinjoins are optional

"Mixing sites" are optional too, this isn't a fact that saves you from your earlier claims.

[JollyGood]

There was no answer from you to the specific question.

What is stopping you from directly answering the question without either by using misdirection or by using walls of text:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476197.msg64318299#msg64318299

An answer or explanation is long overdue. What exactly is a "Contributor to Wasabi Wallet"? Can you explain what your relationship with zkSNACKS is? If you post an answer without trying to hide behind unnecessary words and misdirection, it will save myself or any other member asking about this again.

What was wrong with the answer you received the first time?

[Pmalek]

Here you go:

Nonetheless, there exist legit services which require you to forfeit custody, and you'll have to grasp that part.

No one with a decent understanding of the English language will fall for your attempt of changing the meaning of that sentence to make it look like you are right. The sentence is in no way an attempt to convince people that giving up custody of your bitcoin is a necessity for privacy. It simply explains that there are services (mixers) that require custody of your coins and people need to understand that if they want to use them. The end! Where is the part where BlackHatCoiner is convincing people that it's the only way to go if you want privacy?

[Wind_FURY]

Coinjoins are optional, and can't even compete other protocols, such as Monero. To me, that means falling short on a protocol level.

There are also centralized exchanges which require you to forfeit custody. That does not mean you can't have custody of your bitcoin.

That's basic English, TwistyPhrasy.

Shower thought. Monero is technically the most private cryptocurrency, and the best to do it, BUT because of its smaller anonymity-set, it perhaps could be debatable if it indeed it's more private than Bitcoin, no?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Shower thought. Monero is technically the most private cryptocurrency, and the best to do it, BUT because of its smaller anonymity-set, it perhaps could be debatable if it indeed it's more private than Bitcoin, no?

Every time you make a Monero transaction, your client picks 15 random inputs from the blockchain as decoys, hiding the true sender, and then it derives a one-time public key that's used to obfuscate the receiver, while simultaneously hiding the amounts transacted every time. And if those weren't enough, all these privacy gains are enforced compulsorily, by the protocol.

It's not debatable.

[Kruw]

There was no answer from you to the specific question.

Yes there was:

zkSNACKs shut down a month ago:

https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-is-discontinuing-its-coinjoin-coordination-service-1st-of-june/

[Pmalek]

There was no answer from you to the specific question.

You can check the replies by nopara73 in the topic Wasabi topic hijacked by crooked Kruw. He talks about Kruw being an ex zkSNACKs employee. If that's true, then he currently has no official connection to either zkSNACKs or Wasabi. nopara73 also stated that Kruw can't code. One liar is praising another liar, so take whatever you want from it.

[Wind_FURY]

Shower thought. Monero is technically the most private cryptocurrency, and the best to do it, BUT because of its smaller anonymity-set, it perhaps could be debatable if it indeed it's more private than Bitcoin, no?

Every time you make a Monero transaction, your client picks 15 random inputs from the blockchain as decoys, hiding the true sender, and then it derives a one-time public key that's used to obfuscate the receiver, while simultaneously hiding the amounts transacted every time. And if those weren't enough, all these privacy gains are enforced compulsorily, by the protocol.

It's not debatable.

I'm having a shower thought about it more from the perspective of Law Enforcement in identifying privacy coins users, and because of the smaller anonymity-set, once they identify one group it could make it easier to identify other groups. But if we compare that to Bitcoin - total confusion because the number of users are simply bigger. Would that be a valid argument? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What would be more private, let's pretend these are actual numbers of users - 10,000 CoinJoin users or 100 Monero users?

[BlackHatCoiner]

What would be more private, let's pretend these are actual numbers of users - 10,000 CoinJoin users or 100 Monero users?

Those are rookie numbers. The Monero users are, by far, greater in number than Coinjoin users.

And no, the anonymity set of Bitcoin is not greater than Monero, just because it might have more users. The overwhelming majority keeps them on exchanges, under KYC, and from the rest, the majority of the coins are simply kept on a self-custodial wallet, without any privacy enhancements apart from coin control. A brief look at Bitcoin's current privacy options makes this clear.

[Kruw]

The Monero users are, by far, greater in number than Coinjoin users.

Tell me exactly how you calculated the number of Monero users and calculated the number of coinjoin users to compare to each other. I'm sure you are just making up numbers just like last time:

If you never calculated the Boltzmann score, then why did you claim the Boltzmann score for a WabiSabi coinjoin is "worse"?

There is an entire analysis technique called Boltzmann score that computes resistance to this potential linking. WabiSabi coinjoin is worse in that matter, as it appears in kycp.org.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Tell me exactly how you calculated the number of Monero users and calculated the number of coinjoin users to compare to each other.

Calm down, there is no evidence. It's just estimated, based on my personal experience. If solid evidence is what you're in favor of, then you can neither prove there are more Bitcoin users than Monero users, so the numbers remain rookie.

What I do observe is 43 million Monero transactions, and how many Bitcoin coinjoins in total?

[Kruw]

Calm down, there is no evidence. It's just estimated, based on my personal experience. If solid evidence is what you're in favor of, then you can neither prove there are more Bitcoin users than Monero users, so the numbers remain rookie.

If you're just guessing, then why are you so quick to assert that your claims are "not debatable"?

It's not debatable.

[PrivacyG]

Tell me exactly how you calculated the number of Monero users and calculated the number of coinjoin users to compare to each other.

You are playing it stupid.  There is no need to calculate, the difference is evident.  Are you going to even bring up the ridiculous idea that Coin Join users may be more numerous than Monero users and not the other way around?

If you're just guessing, then why are you so quick to assert that your claims are "not debatable"?

There is nothing to debate in how the Monero protocol works.  You can argue about the efficiency of its protocol to obfuscate and offer Privacy, but the way it works can not really be.

[Wind_FURY]

What would be more private, let's pretend these are actual numbers of users - 10,000 CoinJoin users or 100 Monero users?

Those are rookie numbers. The Monero users are, by far, greater in number than Coinjoin users.

And no, the anonymity set of Bitcoin is not greater than Monero, just because it might have more users. The overwhelming majority keeps them on exchanges, under KYC, and from the rest, the majority of the coins are simply kept on a self-custodial wallet, without any privacy enhancements apart from coin control. A brief look at Bitcoin's current privacy options makes this clear.

I'm not debating for Bitcoin as more private simply because it has more users. I was merely thinking about the comparison from a theoretical perspective. The same question - If there are 10,000 CoinJoin users and then there are 100 Monero users, in theory would the users of Monero be easier to trace/identify and/or make less private?

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm not debating for Bitcoin as more private simply because it has more users. I was merely thinking about the comparison from a theoretical perspective. The same question - If there are 10,000 CoinJoin users and then there are 100 Monero users, in theory would the users of Monero be easier to trace/identify and/or make less private?

I cannot give an answer, because the question is too vague. It depends. For example, if you want to trace a whale, then chances are, it's easier with coinjoins, because amounts are not hidden. In Monero, you don't even know when an output is being spent, therefore it's extremely unlikely you extract any information apart from the fact that you have 100 suspects.

[JollyGood]

zkSNACKs did not, was not and is not shut down yet when you describe yourself as a "Contributor to Wasabi Wallet" but you are not willing to explain what that means. You already embarrassed yourself with your gutter-level conduct over recent months and now you are embarrassing yourself even further by avoiding to answer.

If anybody from the audience or other guest speakers on the stage ask you to explain what "Contributor to Wasabi Wallet" means or what your relationship with zkSNACKS was, you would not have the luxury of hiding behind a screen and keyboard.

There was no answer from you to the specific question.

Yes there was:

zkSNACKs shut down a month ago:

https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-is-discontinuing-its-coinjoin-coordination-service-1st-of-june/