Do we even need bitcoin mixers?

[Agbe]

Op you method or process of sending Bitcoin is too cumbersome they are all in altcoinstalks and if anyone wants to use them, they person should visit there and do the tumbling that is very easy instead of sending to XMR and from there to Monero address 1 and from address 1 to address 2. Hey!! I am might make a mistake in that process and the coins might lost. So if I want to do it I would just go the altcoinstalks forum and use any of them there to tumble my coins. Because using tumbler is the most easiest way to sent Bitcoin to any address and not that your method. The transaction fee will even be more than using only one time transfer.

[1714235124]

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[Despairo]

I think one of those rug-pull decentralized exchanges is Swaprum’s that did a rug-pull exist and stole funds of the users. They did that by adding a backdoor function which allowed them to steal the funds from the LP of the users.

You may read this article to know further about their rug-pull exit scam.

Another rug-pull scam from a decentralized exchange was done by Merlin Dex, they also stole the funds of the users.

Neither of them are decentralized exchanges, many projects trick many people by using DE CEFI terms.

Instant swap platform also not decentralized or can be trusted, look at this accusation $6,000 Stuck on Bitsar.com Exchange. Offering 30% reward for recovery

do the tumbling that is very easy instead of sending to XMR and from there to Monero address 1 and from address 1 to address 2. Hey!! I am might make a mistake in that process and the coins might lost.

If you think sending a coin from one to other is hard or risky since you might lost your coins, there's no difference with sending to mixer.

[goldkingcoiner]

Decentralized tools like Bisq, Monero, or self-custodial coinjoin software like whirlpool, are developed and used every day.

I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes.

The only two quotes worth anything in this topic, from my perspective.

The truth is, we do not need Bitcoin mixers. As you guys have correctly stated, there is a better way of anonymously buying and selling as well as swapping Bitcoin and XMR. There is no point in banning mixers other than to make it harder for people to anonymize their coins. That is it, really.

I myself have never used mixers because I see no reason to. Bitcoin was never meant to be anonymous. Private, yes. But there is a world of difference between being anonymous and being private.

Can we talk about atomic swaps between XMR and BTC? Combined with BisQ, thats really all it takes. Or am I wrong?

[KiaKia]

Privacy coins are mostly well built out of the box for those who want to make transactions anonymously, something that's not available in Bitcoin mech, but I understand why people wished that Bitcoin was made this way, more people will always prefer Bitcoin over XMR, but the truth is XMR is perfect for anonymous way of moving funds around.

I am glad that Satoshi doesn't build Bitcoin as a privacy coin because the hate will be much more than what we are seeing today, the government will even have more reason to want to kill Bitcoin, it will be called the criminal's digital money and it will fits just well.

Mixers are not really necessary, I haven't use it once because I don't see why I should, and if I have to do any private transaction I will go for Monero (XMR).

[Twentyonepaylots]

Mixing sites have been promoted on this forum for a long time but I have never used them. I know how they work but I haven't needed to use them. And now mixing platforms have been banned by Theymos due to many illegal activities being done in them. So I'm not encouraged to use the mixer platform. these platforms are useful for those who want to make large transactions secretly but not important for users like me.

Been quite long time here as well, at first I'm curious how those platform works but fortunately I was able to use once, and basically it is just for privacy purposes, nothing's fancy if you are not a fan of publicity and you don't want your transaction to be tracked. Might as well this is the reason why government are giving some slap on it tagging as fraud. For normal people, who doesn't care about privacy it'll look like an unnecessary process to do, for some people it means security for them. Although let us not set aside the fact that money launderers use such platforms for illegal activities.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I think one of those rug-pull decentralized exchanges is Swaprum’s that did a rug-pull exist and stole funds of the users.

That was a DeFi exchange, not a decentralized. No truly decentralized exchange offers farming rewards, staking pools, referral programs and a shit-token called SARP. And as already said, if an exchange is decentralized, it does not take custody.

I am glad that Satoshi doesn't build Bitcoin as a privacy coin because the hate will be much more than what we are seeing today, the government will even have more reason to want to kill Bitcoin, it will be called the criminal's digital money and it will fits just well.

Similar thoughts as well. Anonymity, or even just privacy, being optional is good, depending on how you look at it. Sure, I'd rather have protocol privacy by default, but if to accomplish that I'd have to turn Bitcoin in an "underground" currency, then we better split into separate networks (Bitcoin, Monero) and freely choose what fits us best afterwards.

[SamReomo]

That was a DeFi exchange, not a decentralized. No truly decentralized exchange offers farming rewards, staking pools, referral programs and a shit-token called SARP. And as already said, if an exchange is decentralized, it does not take custody.

I think that's what one should look for when he/she is aiming to search for a decentralized exchange. But, can you please tell me that is there any truly decentralized exchange including Bisq that doesn't rely on system's own centralization?

Although, Bisq is truly decentralized but still the trading disputes are often solved by the arbitrators or mediators and that's somehow a centralization thing not at government level but at exchange level. So if we keep that in mind then Bisq also has its own centralization system that's free from government interference but isn't free from the interference of the system's own centralization.

I won't question Bisq's decentralization in other sense because its doing best for the traders and crypto community and is preserving the privacy of the users but still I won't say that any decentralized exchange is decentralized in true sense.

The ones that I shared who did rug-pull to investors also promoted themselves as decentralized exchanges but they turned into scams. I would highly prefer Bisq over other decentralized exchanges, and also over those centralized exchanges that doesn't require any KYC.

The exchanges that doesn't require KYC often work as honeypots and the users who trade on those exchanges are always at risk of loosing their Bitcoin. But, I would still not support other decentralized exchanges and the users should use them on their own risk.

[tbterryboy]

Even a greater method would be just not using a mixer or not hiding your coins. I mean most people are trying to hide their coins and unless you got them illegally they what's the point of trying to hide your money? I get that "personal preference" could be some peoples answer but then you are taking a huge risk of getting tagged just because you are doing something that doesn't really end up being all that easy to handle, you should try to avoid that as much as you possibly could.

I think that is the trouble, you are not going to end up with anything that would be all that confusing, and you should be considering that as the most important part of your deal, it would not be all that great if you are not careful about it.

[isaah23]

No, we don't need.
People who trust mixers, how do you know there is no logging your ip and input/output addresses on backend?
You trust message "Anonymous/Privacy" on their website?
If even "the most private and anonymous" Proton mail working with police...

[uchegod-21]

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

LOL. I'm sorry I didn't laugh at you, but I did laugh at myself. I remember very well when I was a lower rank member of this forum and never understood anything about privacy. I would say I don't have need for a mixer;
I don't also have need for a privacy coin;
I do not fear KYC;
probably because I thought I'm safe because I'm not a criminal. Little did I know that securing your personal data should be the obligation of everyone whether a criminal or a saint. Just believe that you will one day not recieve a troubled bitcoin under government's scrutiny.

[The Cryptovator]

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me? Will Binance attack me? If I can't trust them, then I haven't verified my KYC with them. If I don't have dirty funds or gambling funds, then I shouldn't have a problem with them. However, we can still exchange our bitcoin with someone else by p2p. We can sell Bitcoin and buyback again. We may lose some fees, of course, and the system may lose. But for me, I am fine when I am holding my bitcoin in a non-custodial wallet. 

[coolcoinz]

I've never used a mixer, but... the fact that we may not need it doesn't change that we should be able to use it. Let's say you find something unimportant and don't use it. Many people feel safe, don't own guns and feel like it's a good idea to restrict others from owning guns. Do you support this? I sure don't.

Living in a society demands us to set up a list of rules and things that are limited or forbidden, but this should be limited to things that are dangerous. For instance, we don't want people to have radioactive materials at home because that could make us, neighbors, sick. Why should I care if someone uses a mixer? It's his free choice if he wants to.

[examplens]

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

[Kruw]

No, we don't need.
People who trust mixers, how do you know there is no logging your ip and input/output addresses on backend?
You trust message "Anonymous/Privacy" on their website?
If even "the most private and anonymous" Proton mail working with police...

100% true. People should have learned their lesson about "mixing sites" a long time ago. Coinjoins keep your funds and data safe, so there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to use/promote/operate a "mixing site".

[FinneysTrueVision]

I think one of those rug-pull decentralized exchanges is Swaprum’s that did a rug-pull exist and stole funds of the users.

That was a DeFi exchange, not a decentralized. No truly decentralized exchange offers farming rewards, staking pools, referral programs and a shit-token called SARP. And as already said, if an exchange is decentralized, it does not take custody.

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds but you do have to trust that there isn’t any backdoors or undiscovered bugs in their smart contracts. They might have ponzi-like aspects to them but they are still decentralized.

100% true. People should have learned their lesson about "mixing sites" a long time ago. Coinjoins keep your funds and data safe, so there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to use/promote/operate a "mixing site".

There was this story from last week where a user claims to have lost 15 BTC on Unijoin. He was given a letter of guarantee with a fake signature, that he didn’t bother to verify like most users of mixers, which makes it nearly impossible to prove he was even scammed.
https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=317783.0

All the people with mixer advertisements in their signatures are making excuses and trying to gaslight the user by saying they weren’t actually scammed. Even if the user is lying for whatever reason, this is still an inherent vulnerability present in any custodial mixing service. No amount of signature payments is enough to make this danger go away.

[fuguebtc]

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

What do you mean we are using bitcoin to avoid taxes? I think we need to have privacy even from the government because maybe one day the government will confiscate our property without any reason . But I don't think using bitcoin is to avoid taxes and it's not a good move. If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

[examplens]

What do you mean we are using bitcoin to avoid taxes? I think we need to have privacy even from the government because maybe one day the government will confiscate our property without any reason . But I don't think using bitcoin is to avoid taxes and it's not a good move. If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

If you pay more attention, you will see that I gave an example of why someone would use a mixer.
I apologize for not stating that it is not financial advice.

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

[swogerino]

I would go a really simple way for exchanging not huge amounts or even huge amounts that have no urgency and can be taken out little by little.This can be done easily by sending money to a casino wallet,play there for fun some money and then withdraw to a new wallet,this way it is almost impossible to trace your Bitcoins or any other currency supported by the casino platform.Of course I am talking here about people with an emphasize on privacy and no criminals which they want all money as soon as they can,for them without mixers it is quite difficult.

[kryptqnick]

Mixers are getting outlawed, and it's not surprising because what they do is basically money laundering (in a sense that the procedure is literally built to hide the origins of money, both legit and not legit money). If someone is that much into privacy that doesn't care for Bitcoin's pseudonymity, then like others said, there are private coins for that. To me, transparency is a value, and while I believe in the value of privacy, it's not extremely important to me, so I've never felt like I needed to use mixers for anything.

[BlackHatCoiner]

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds

Can you prove it? From my experience with DeFi, the software is closed-source. You can export private keys and the like, but you can't know with certainty if another entity holds your keys as well. And in my opinion, if another entity holds my keys, it isn't self-custodial, regardless of what I do.

Mixers are getting outlawed, and it's not surprising because what they do is basically money laundering (in a sense that the procedure is literally built to hide the origins of money, both legit and not legit money). If someone is that much into privacy that doesn't care for Bitcoin's pseudonymity, then like others said, there are private coins for that.

Right, as if you don't mix your coins with other people's coins in private coins, or as if private coins aren't "literally built" to hide the origins of money (both "legit" and "not legit")!