A simpler version of demerits: "dmerits" for every X merits earned

[KingsDen]

I voted NO!
But why this sudden interest in demerits?;
What has happened?;
Are we not the problems of ourselves?;
Sugesting demerit function means there's merit saturation;
This kind of posts make theymos to keep deaf ears at merit sources applications;
We all agreed that the forum needs more merit sources;
We also on ourselves are suggesting function to demerit someone.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

The suggestion is good, but it won't work, why? because people are scared.

Yep, you make a solid point and no doubt that's one of the reasons why adding a de-merit system would fall flat on its face.  If I sat down for about 10 minutes, I could probably come up with a dozen or so additional reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea at all.  Right off the top of my head, I can picture all sorts of abuse by members who might be leaving the forum and decide to give a big 'fuck you' to a bunch of people (assuming they were able to under the hypothetical system).  And I think it would put members on eggshells, sort of like the fear you mentioned.

In any case, this was discussed at least one time that I know of, back when the merit system first came into existence.  The consensus was that the power to de-merit a post would do more harm than good.  And hell, it doesn't really matter what the community thought about the idea.  Theymos obviously snubbed it then, and I don't think he's likely to change his mind no matter how well laid out one's argument is. 

[Poker Player]

Why this sudden collective interest for a demerit function?

I don't see why, is it because of the airdroped merits?

No, I'll sum it up for you, it's very simple. OddJobsForBitcoin opened the following thread:

What Sort of Signature is "FUCK Royse777"?

In that he basically made up that someone had tried to hire him to put on that signature. As it usually happens in the Reputation section, whoever opens a thread gets in the eyes of the DTs, who start investigating his story, and in this case decodx discovered with blockchain analysis that he has a lot of alt accounts with which he has joined the same bounties and that he has been involved in accounts selling.

When asked why he had broken the rules joining bounties with his alts, he replied:

For fun. Trust me.

So, when caught red handed, OddJobsForBitcoin opened this shitty thread talking about demerit and how bad some higher ranked members, like decodx, are doing:

Hey Theymos, There Should Be a Demotion Button

BenCodie thought it was a good idea, regardless of the context of where the proposal came from, and from what we see in the voting results, he seems to be the only one.

[AB de Royse777]

I wouldn't expect theymos or moderators to monitor possible abuses or organized demerit user profiles.

This is a big place and even if theymos wants to moderate, a lot of things will be unnoticed. Theymos can assign some modes to perform the job but it's also some manual job.

Poll: Should "dmerit" be added to allow a member to demerit (-merit) another member?
- Yes.
- No.

Changes are always welcome but for this one my vote is "No".

[hugeblack]

Voting is not an excellent mechanism for making such decisions. If a vote were held, there would certainly not be a merit system or signature campaigns would not be prohibited.


Will choose Yes, the current merit system needs to be modified and added to DeMerit, but the problem remains in how to implement it. If it is a new DeMerit list, the forum would be very centralized.
Frankly, I do not like the current trust system because of the points mentioned by @Plaguedeath as many are afraid to leave negative feedbacks to avoid be attacked, getting negative trust and less opportunity to join sig campaigns.

In general, in ALTT there is a system similar to a court, where 4-6 members are elected and take action. If it is necessary to make adjustments to the merit system, I suggest creating a similar idea, but frankly, I do not have an ideal idea.

[yahoo62278]

The suggestion is good, but it won't work, why? because people are scared.

Take a look with the current trust list and feedback, many users are afraid to distrust the big names even though they makes mistakes e.g. leave a negative feedback due to personal conflict, leave a positive feedback because the user kind, has higher position etc. Instead of correct their mistakes, you could be distrusted by them even you have no mistake and most people will silent because they're also scared.

Merit is only for high quality post, right? but there are some people get merit by posting an image without any words. If it's posted by respectable user, will you believe someone will dmerit his post? I bet no.

People shouldn't live in fear on this forum, but unfortunately you are correct. Poking the wrong bear could lead to a person losing their way of earning and some just cannot afford that. I don't really think most of the members I respect would engage in that sort of shit.

@OP adding a demerit system would be great if it could be used properly and not be biased. I think that's impossible here.

[EarnOnVictor]

Firstly let me start by asking, where is this merit demotion idea coming from?

I'm surprised like you and I simply do not know where this ugly idea is coming from despite other creative ideas that can move this forum forward. This will certainly move the forum backward which doesn't make any sense. Because theymos and the brains behind the creation of the idea of the merit system just the way it is must have thought so well about the OP's wicked idea and must have wisely condemned it before taking a stance as we see today.

Can you imagine what the OP is clamouring for, it will cause anarchy in the forum if care is not taken. Some people who had given you several merits could determine to remove it one after the other if there is a disagreement between you guys or merely a change of decision. You know what that means? Some who had been promoted to a higher rank could get their status demoted due to this ill-conceived idea.

The way the merit system has been made permanent when you send merits is just the best.

[Wapfika]

But why this sudden interest in demerits?;
What has happened?;
Are we not the problems of ourselves?;
Sugesting demerit function means there's merit saturation;
This kind of posts make theymos to keep deaf ears at merit sources applications;
We all agreed that the forum needs more merit sources;
We also on ourselves are suggesting function to demerit someone.

A user started a topic about this issue on this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5486444.msg63714900#msg63714900 and later on bust with farm account. The intention is for personal vendetta to the user that bust him.

The OP of this thread agree on this idea so he continue the topic in this new thread with a poll. Actually, Merit system is already working well because farm account is already less rampant these days since they can’t rank up easily. This feature will not be open for discussion again if the previous OP doesn’t mention this topic because the current merit system is working fine based on its purpose.

[KingsDen]

A user started a topic about this issue on this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5486444.msg63714900#msg63714900 and later on bust with farm account. The intention is for personal vendetta to the user that bust him.

I am aware of that thread but wasn't aware the Op of the thread was bursted for account farming. I just checked the thread and discovered that there's an unanswered by question by Jollygood waiting him.

Meanwhile, the merit system is ok. If we seek for improvement it should be to create more sources and not demerit feature which will be misused just as some people are doing DT power now.

[Amphenomenon]

In general, in ALTT there is a system similar to a court, where 4-6 members are elected and take action. If it is necessary to make adjustments to the merit system, I suggest creating a similar idea, but frankly, I do not have an ideal idea.

To be Frank I don't really think this will work well, it's similar to DT but with time I think it will even fail more than DT. Altcoinstalk is still under development and I don't think when it comes to this Btt needs to adopt any of their systems, though Altcoinstalk was created to be less strict but now that been use against them, in just a month plus after mixers moved to them, the admin have already been facing the abuse of the karma systems.

I stand with NO on the addition of demerit system, if we're already being stress because of the abuse of merit and DT, the demerit will only makes things and frankly Theymos definitely would have thought about this before but he knows it won't solve any problem here instead causing more problem.
After all we know he does not bother about how anyone here view him, rather he cares about the betterment of the forum and once he sees a feasible way of solving this problem he will implement it, just like how he banned mixers though we all hated it but we have come to accept it since we understand his reasons.

Sometimes I think there is no need for all these especially when we have such threads like this,
Known Alts of any-one - A User Generated List Mk IV (2024 Q1) [MODERATED] 🤨🔬,
AI Spam Report Reference Thread and others have been more helpful than anything in bringing order on the forum.

 Though I support nutildah idea, on getting the payment of any bounty cheater caught since even negative tags doesn't stop them from cheating this would be better, since everyone knows that having such related tags has already put anyone having it in edge of never being accepted in a campaign but I guess it will all depend on if the member desires to take the cheaters

[hugeblack]

To be Frank I don't really think this will work well, it's similar to DT but with time I think it will even fail more than DT. Altcoinstalk is still under development and I don't think when it comes to this Btt needs to adopt any of their systems, though Altcoinstalk was created to be less strict but now that been use against them, in just a month plus after mixers moved to them, the admin have already been facing the abuse of the karma systems.

I agree with you, but if we say that about 15 accounts control most of Merits distribution, and assuming that the system is not misused, then creating a de-merit system with a list of 20 members, only 5 members needed to agree to de-Merit that post.

I do not like using trust system as a de-Merit system.

[yhiaali3]

I also voted "no", as I see the current score is 43 "no" against one "yes".

It is clear that everyone did not like this proposal because it would simply turn the forum into an arena for conflict, exchange of accusations, and the like, which would turn the forum into something else completely different from the purpose of its creation.

This system can cause many members to waste their long-time efforts to advance their rank due to differences of opinion or personal disagreements with other members.

This will also increase the burden of Mods and waste their time resolving disputes that will arise between members if this system is misused.

[Mitchell]

Yes, let me demerit people. Let me derank people. Give me the power to burn everything to the ground.
In all seriousness, if Theymos thought this was a good idea, it would already have been done.

[Lucius]

~snip~
So, when caught red handed, OddJobsForBitcoin opened this shitty thread talking about demerit and how bad some higher ranked members, like decodx, are doing:

Hey Theymos, There Should Be a Demotion Button

BenCodie OddJobsForBitcoin thought it was a good idea, regardless of the context of where the proposal came from, and from what we see in the voting results, he seems to be the only one.

No matter how unpopular it may seem, I really don't believe in coincidences when it comes to those who have many alt accounts on this forum and try to manipulate other members using them. I won't repeat what I wrote, but for those who missed it -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5486444.msg63722621#msg63722621

[Mrbluntzy]

Should the demerit system be introduced? Yes it should be introduced but what effects will it have on the forum? It will cause more conflict and would also fulfill the reason it was created. Let's be careful the choices we make because what ever have advantage also has disadvantages. If a demerit button is integrated to this forum, the reason why it was created will be fullfill but I am 100% sure that it will also be used against its purpose. It will cause conflict among members, it will be used as a tool of war among members just like some DT are already doing with the trust system. Some members only give tag to other members in a clear case when it is very necessary to do so but some other DTs are just being so harsh and careless in handing out tag for some nonsense personal reasons. If a DT members got insulted by non DT, they could just use their DT membership to give tag to the user and it is very bad.

Let's not be surprised that one day we might even see a tag from a DT saying, "he or she misspelled my name, I can't trust him, that's why am leaving this tag"

I vote that th Demerit system should come live only on the condition that who ever misused it should be automatically banned from the forum, no second chance should be given.

[Amphenomenon]

To be Frank I don't really think this will work well, it's similar to DT but with time I think it will even fail more than DT. Altcoinstalk is still under development and I don't think when it comes to this Btt needs to adopt any of their systems, though Altcoinstalk was created to be less strict but now that been use against them, in just a month plus after mixers moved to them, the admin have already been facing the abuse of the karma systems.

I agree with you, but if we say that about 15 accounts control most of Merits distribution, and assuming that the system is not misused, then creating a de-merit system with a list of 20 members, only 5 members needed to agree to de-Merit that post.

I do not like using trust system as a de-Merit system.

except I misinterpret that part, I think 15 accounts having most control seems feasible but that would make the workload being overloaded for them even some these reliable members are already having tight schedule in their personal life, People are move with emotions which will still affect this and somehow de-Merit won`t hold strong in this forum like having Negative tags because those who are De-Merited can still earn merits even when they are still breaking the rules except they are tag account can not be limited.

For example if a member is caught as a cheater in campaign or bounties with a tag, that account is ruin to be accepted when it comes to getting loans or joining campaign but except the trust system still stand with the De-Merit system, these cheaters can still earn merits and apply for loans and campaign with a good chance of being accepted while with a negative tag an account is ruin or limited.

[Majestic-milf]

 I voted no as well. I don't really see the need for a demerit and  just like @plaguedeath rightly pointed, it won't be used properly because users will have a kind of preferential treatment on whom to use this feature on and whom not to. I also heard that it could be a nice idea since altcointalk uses it and I strongly believe that BitcoinTalk is not in any competition with any other site to do better. I feel that the forum will be less fun to be in if most of these stringent rules are applied. Of all our requests where being granted by Theymos, BitcoinTalk will not be recognizable in the near future and I know that change is constant bit there are some changes that will alter the course of things and are best left the way they are.

[Timelord2067]

Why would a Legendary user be applauding a dense idea by a low end member that is overwhelmingly rejected by those who have partaken in the poll?

Bad idea.

[Lucius]

Why would a Legendary user be applauding a dense idea by a low end member that is overwhelmingly rejected by those who have partaken in the poll?
Bad idea.

If you don't have me on "ignore", and you read my previous post, then one of the logical conclusions arises - it's about one and the same person. Besides, isn't it strange that the OP has no comment after all on all these comments about his "brilliant idea"?

@BenCodie is apparently only one in a series of accounts bought by the one who introduces himself as @OddJobsForBitcoin. Otherwise, BPIP shows that the account changed its password for the first time on May 20, 2018, and then the owner probably changed as well.

[Alpha Marine]

The suggestion is good, but it won't work, why? because people are scared.

This is true, some people try to stay out of trouble, but I believe some don't mind.
My main issue with the dmerit system is that it can easily be manipulated or exploited. There would be too many irregularities.

I can dmerit a person's post simply because I don't like the person. I might give a reason why I did that, but deep down I was only looking for a reason. With the merit system if you see a quality post that you like and want to merit, you're free to do so, if you don't want to or don't have sMerit to give, you just move on.
If a post is so bad it deserves dmerit, report the post to the moderator.