[Discussion] Bitcoin Pizza Day on Bitcointalk 🍕

[LoyceV]

I'm too retarded to calculate it myself, but just for reference here's AI-generated answer to the question:

Interpretation
The chance of 5 users randomly picking the same 5 pizzas

Don't rely on AI. There's nothing random about selecting the best looking pizzas.
Devil's advocate: it could even be the local board users have a local tradition of putting for instance pineapple on a pizza, and selected only the pizzas with pineapple. If there were only 5, that explains the selected pizzas. If they're all in the order they were posted, that explains the same order. I'm not saying this is what happened, and it's quite likely they were indeed just cheating, but it doesn't hurt to at least consider other options.

[aoluain]

Friends, who is good at math?

What is the probability that, given 144 pizza options, 5 users from one local section vote for 5 identical pizzas, placing votes in the same order?

The probability is high and I will explain how it can happen. The first vote can come from a particular member of a local board who have earned the respect and trust of other local board members, others coming to vote, sees his/her choice and decide to vote in same direction. It happens even  in circular politics  in which case people simply vote for a candidate because a certain individual supports the candidate. I don't think this breaks any rule hence, taking any action because some people voted the same numbers and in the same order may not seem fair to the competition entirely. Like some people already suggested, these are areas of improvement that can be discussed after a winner have been announced based on the rules set for this year's contest.  

That's bullshit. One could follow a trusted person's advice for electoral voting (as it would affect their lives, so they have an incentive to vote), but why would anyone even bother voting for pizza if they had no opinion of their own? How does this make sense?
Even if they decided to act like mindless drones and copy/paste the vote of the "leader" - that's still a manipulation. It's shameful and should not be tolerated.

It's not against the rules, but neither is leaving those who voted that way red trust ratings or discarding their votes (I believe Icopress reserved such option) + banning them from future voting.


I'm too retarded to calculate it myself, but just for reference here's AI-generated answer to the question:

Interpretation
The chance of 5 users randomly picking the same 5 pizzas in the same order out of 144 options is effectively zero under random conditions. Such a match would strongly suggest coordination or manipulation.

Yea I call bullshit too, maybe there is a chance for someone to copy EXACTLY someone
elses vote but for 5 people to do that is just an organised voting arrangement,
and from the same local board, very smelly.

The problem is the prize for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th - they are handsome prizes for
baking a pizza, it also attracts cheating - its inevitable.

Should there be a reward at all?

With no reward it would eliminate the potential to cheat and would attract those interested
in making a great pizza just for the love of it.

[babo]

Don't rely on AI. There's nothing random about selecting the best looking pizzas.
Devil's advocate: it could even be the local board users have a local tradition of putting for instance pineapple on a pizza, and selected only the pizzas with pineapple. If there were only 5, that explains the selected pizzas. If they're all in the order they were posted, that explains the same order. I'm not saying this is what happened, and it's quite likely they were indeed just cheating, but it doesn't hurt to at least consider other options.

in fact, you devil's advocate are not wrong
I can't blame you at all

it all depends on local habits, sometimes I have to honestly say that they are mental limitations, I have tasted different things from my culture and I liked them a lot too
not to mention the gourmet meals served by special chefs (I was invited since I can't afford these places)
that combine different and exotic tastes

from a food point of view I opened my mind to discover new things

[Ale88]

It's not against the rules, but neither is leaving those who voted that way red trust ratings or discarding their votes (I believe Icopress reserved such option) + banning them from future voting.

How do we know which names are implicated?  Is someone going to give a list?

I do have a list (and so do other users) but I don't think it's fair to publish anything while icopress is still counting the votes. Eventually we can talk about this after the contest has been officially closed, announcing names and votes now it could somehow influence/tamper the final results, and as I always said I care about the contest's fairness, making names now would be quite a hypocritical move, so I don't want to do that.

[Alpha Marine]

Absolutely, I'm sure icopress knows what to do, in the meantime there is nothing wrong showing some concerns, at the end this is a forum, we're just talking.

You say things like "we're just talking", and you're threatening to use the red tag on users you felt cheated in another of your post. That doesn't seem like "just talking" to me. It is because of dramas like this that I decide not to participate in stuff like this. Not because I don't want to or won't like to, but I try to stay away from unnecessary drama.

In a place like this, people will almost always vote for people they know or like. It's almost a popularity contest, and if people from a local board vote for people from their local board, is there a forum rule against it?  Or is it against the rules of the Bitcoin Pizza Contest?
I don't know if you participated this time, but if you did, you simply cannot tell me that a lot of users from your local board didn't vote for you and other members from your local board. Does that mean you're cheating and should be red-trusted?

Also, I've seen you talk about the pizzas that are voted for as not worth the votes. Well, you may be right because I've seen many pizzas that, to me, are not good, but they have votes, but that is your opinion and mine, it doesn't prove cheating. That's exactly why it's a voting system, or else, Iconpress could have just picked the best 5 pizzas and awarded them. What's good for you may not be good for me, and vice versa. Everybody can't like the same thing, and everybody can't like what you like. So if you suspect cheating, just state how the cheating was done and stop talking about red trust. You'll only discourage people from participating in things like this in the future if you go that route.

[icopress]

So, block #904444 is reserved for raffle (current 904428) 

[Ale88]

Absolutely, I'm sure icopress knows what to do, in the meantime there is nothing wrong showing some concerns, at the end this is a forum, we're just talking.

You say things like "we're just talking", and you're threatening to use the red tag on users you felt cheated in another of your post. That doesn't seem like "just talking" to me.

I’m threatening users with red trust? What the hell are you talking about, are you high?

[pawel7777]

In a place like this, people will almost always vote for people they know or like. It's almost a popularity contest, and if people from a local board vote for people from their local board, is there a forum rule against it?  Or is it against the rules of the Bitcoin Pizza Contest?
(...)

Or could it be that you project yourself onto others and/or fail to understand the difference between a high-trust culture and primitive tribalism?
I didn't vote for pizza of my local board member, whom I like and respect, and who made a decent effort in making his pizza, simply because I found 5 that I liked more and voted for them. And I can assure you, I wasn't the only one.
There were no controversies in last year's edition (if I remember correctly), and the ones with the most votes were the ones that took some hard work, both in design and execution. You can't shrug everything off because of 'subjective taste'. We all recognise half-assed effort when we see one.

By your logic, we can scrap any future editions as there would hardly be any point anymore (if we tolerate such behaviour), unless we use a panel of judges (who don't share your line of thinking) instead of voting.

You're entire argument is that it was "not against the rules" - so what? There's a thing called morality and basic decency. You know what else is not against the rules? Giving them red trust ratings, kicking them out of their signature campaigns, discarding their votes, banning them from future participation - to mention a few. Why do you oppose that if it's not against the rules and if it also can be boiled down to subjective opinion? We are not in a court of law.

To be clear, I'm not encouraging any red trust or other penalties just yet, as my knowledge is limited to the information I've got from scanning through this thread.
But if we have solid enough evidence of any concerted effort to skew the voting in favour of particular member(s), based on their local board connection, then yes, something would have to be done about that.
Cutting out toxic members that spoil it for everyone else is perfectly justified if we want to have a healthy community.

[Alpha Marine]

You're entire argument is that it was "not against the rules" - so what? There's a thing called morality and basic decency. You know what else is not against the rules? Giving them red trust ratings, kicking them out of their signature campaigns, discarding their votes, banning them from future participation - to mention a few. Why do you oppose that if it's not against the rules and if it also can be boiled down to subjective opinion? We are not in a court of law.

I do not know all the written and unwritten rules about red tag, but I know there are measures put in place to make sure people don't abuse it. Meaning, there are rules. You can't carry out actions on people based on how you perceive them to be. There is a reason why there is a "reference" place when you give a tag.

Talking about "we are not in a court of law".
You've obviously been on the forum way longer than I have so you might probably know cases I don't, but in all the time I've been on this forum, before any action is taken against any person for anything, there has to be something to prove that the person is guilty of that thing. We don't need to be in the court of law to ask for proof of accusations or ask to point out where a person breaks the law. We can't just take your word for it, or that people from a particular board voted en masse for pizzas from their board.

So just as you have said, if evidence is found, then by all means, penalise accordingly, but until then, you will respect people's work and choices.

Also, how do you mean "half-assed effort"? Are you saying that people's pizza that doesn't look good to you, then there was no effort put into it? I've never made a pizza from scratch in my life, but making a pizza from scratch seems like a lot of effort, in my opinion. That it didn't come out well doesn't mean there was no effort put into them.

This might be the last time I'll be saying anything about this topic till new developments come up since I didn't participate and I didn't vote. 

[Becassine]

38 pages already discussing the pizza contest, you are simply extraordinary, it would be so cool to meet IRL (and taste the pizzas of course). This forum will never cease to amaze me 

[Danydee]

38 pages already discussing the pizza contest,

 postiong participations, is for more than two years so !

[nutildah]

I do not know all the written and unwritten rules about red tag, but I know there are measures put in place to make sure people don't abuse it. Meaning, there are rules. You can't carry out actions on people based on how you perceive them to be. There is a reason why there is a "reference" place when you give a tag.

Actually, there are no rules. You can tag anyone for anything you want and nobody can stop you. What holds everything in place is the trust system, which doesn't have "rules" so much as guidelines. So if you want people who are paying attention and care about the forum to include you in their trust list, then you will attempt to follow such guidelines, but nothing is mandatory -- just like how someone determines who to put in their trust list.

Also, how do you mean "half-assed effort"?

I mean cmon bro, some of the pizzas look like absolute shit. The half-assedness comes from failing to equip oneself with enough knowledge on how to make their pizza look like a pizza, or at least look presentable. There's no excuse for that if you have access to the internet, which everyone here does. Either that, or they just don't care. Its sheer laziness either way.