How high is the probability of accusations vs. casinos in BitcoinTalk are true?

[Mahanton]

I have some theories on why newbies complain the most and not the regular forum users.

I think the reason are simply the numbers. There are much less active forum user casino players than non-forum user casino players. If we assume that everyone playing in a casino has an equal chance of major problem happening to them, than it will result much more non-forum users having such a negative experience compared to active forum users. And after such an experience, since there is no way to resolve it satisfactorily, they might come, register and complain as that is the only thing they can possibly do. To get attention and also to warn others.

The other reason might be that regs probably read the forum much more thoroughly.  Unlike me, for example, who only lurked around to find new casinos to play at. If a casino had a topic with at least 20 pages of posts, I checked the casino out without actually reading those posts.  If I liked what I saw, I started playing there. I simply assumed that as the post count increased, so did the credibility of the casino. This is not necessarily the case.

This is actually true on what you had pointed on which the only issue here is that whenever there's a newbie account that posted up on this forum then it cant really be avoided that there would really be those impressions that those accusations might be that just simply trolling or that just tainting on someones platform on which we know that it wont really be that true all the time. We do know that when it comes to this aspect
on which same as you said that most of those victims or experiencing issues arent that forum users or simply they dont know this place. They would really be only be able to find it out on the time or moment that
they are experiencing issues on which Google search would really be their best friend on which its a common action that would be taken by someone who hadnt done their research earlier.

Based up with those table above on what you had qouted then if its really that showing 50-50% chance then its not something that we can neglect or totally or automatically presume out that accusations been
posted up will be considered to be trolling or false. As long that there would really be that a solid evidence then it would be considered as legit of course. Once a certain platform would be having a negative
tag by this community then it would be considered as shady but we do know that not all would be able to reach out this forum on which they do miss out those information or warnings or cautions.

[skarais]

~~~

This is actually true on what you had pointed on which the only issue here is that whenever there's a newbie account that posted up on this forum then it cant really be avoided that there would really be those impressions that those accusations might be that just simply trolling or that just tainting on someones platform on which we know that it wont really be that true all the time. We do know that when it comes to this aspect
on which same as you said that most of those victims or experiencing issues arent that forum users or simply they dont know this place. They would really be only be able to find it out on the time or moment that
they are experiencing issues on which Google search would really be their best friend on which its a common action that would be taken by someone who hadnt done their research earlier.

It is true, there is an impression that some newbie account are just deliberately created to damage the reputation of certain casinos and they start making false accusations. I can't blame every newbie who makes accusations because after all some accusations can be confirmed as legitimate accusations, but this problem exists because some other newbie start false accusations. Whatever their reason for creating the thread, I think every poster afterward should ask for proof instead of just replying. In essence, not all newbie have the same goals and we cannot generalize that all of them aim to damage the reputation of a particular casino.

[EarnOnVictor]

There was a post in earlier in this topic by tranthidung who counted the scam accusations, applied a little math magic on it to show the overall 40-60% of the scam accusation complaints are valid when you have big enough sample. While this number is far from 100%, it definitely shows that it is not true that the most or even the majority of accusations are false or invalid. It is about 50-50.

Here it is:
-snip-

Thank you for this, and like what I just argued with a user this week, the higher percentage of the allegations against casinos might be true. But of course, there are some bad and ugly actors as well who either want to avenge their losses in a senseless way or are sent by rival companies or just being idiotic to cause tension where there is none. This is why we should be so sensitive in reading and digesting allegations/reviews. But in average, I am sure that the allegations are valid and more reason we should treat each case differently before taking sides.

However, judging by the statistics above, I still like people to take it easily with big casinos in terms of the number and percentage of complainers. It can be so deceptive for a lesser casino with just 500 customers with 5 complainers (1% of customers) compared to big casinos with over 5,000,000 customers with 150 complainers (0.003%). You can see by the comparison arithmetic, that the big casinos are still doing better than the lesser casinos despite the big number attached to them.

[erep]

It is true, there is an impression that some newbie account are just deliberately created to damage the reputation of certain casinos and they start making false accusations. I can't blame every newbie who makes accusations because after all some accusations can be confirmed as legitimate accusations, but this problem exists because some other newbie start false accusations. Whatever their reason for creating the thread, I think every poster afterward should ask for proof instead of just replying. In essence, not all newbie have the same goals and we cannot generalize that all of them aim to damage the reputation of a particular casino.

I have reviewed several newbie accounts that make threads of accusations about casinos, they make short statements without proving they experienced fraud from the casino, they seek attention from other members to support the negative effects of accusations without any evidence and they seem to aim to accuse the casino scam, they are only active in making threads but they no longer respond to responses from other members and their accounts are no longer active after a thread of accusations was made on this forum. However, you should not believe in the thraed accusations of casino scams but we must review the thread of the report and relate it to the reality in the casino to confirm the report of the accusation.

[khaled0111]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 99% of the accusation made by newbies are fake (some services doing it to tarnish the reputation and harm their competitors), I believe the most important question, in this case, would be: what can we do about it?
I believe we all agree that we/the forum should not restrict newbies from creating topics on the scam accusation board as long as there is a possibility one of those accusations might be legit.
Maybe deleting topics that do not follow the Scam Report Format?

[MFreM]

There is a saying that goes by "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." And gamblers are not the sharpest bunch. This could explain why they can not follow the scam report format.

I do think that the vast majority - if not all - complaints are genuine in a way that the person complaining feels like they got cheated/mistreated by the casino. I am sure the feeling itself is very real, although there is a high - about 50% - chance that the complaint is actually invalid.

I can understand those feelings. I believe most invalid complaint are invalid because the player somehow breached the ToS. However every single ToS I have read by offshore licensed casinos are extremely anti-costumer. They refuse any liability, can be changed anytime, include tons of reasons for which they can ban you and confiscate your winnings, many of those are not properly defined thus open to (their) interpretation. If someone get penalized because of such unfair rules it is understandable that they feel upset. Of course it is still their fault for not following the ToS, at least the parts that are not open for different interpretations. However, most gamblers probably do not even read the ToS at all, at least not until they get burnt.

I think that the low effort, invalid complaints are more akin to rant posts, than actual accusations, even if they call it as such.

[Sunderland]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 99% of the accusation made by newbies are fake (some services doing it to tarnish the reputation and harm their competitors), I believe the most important question, in this case, would be: what can we do about it?
I believe we all agree that we/the forum should not restrict newbies from creating topics on the scam accusation board as long as there is a possibility one of those accusations might be legit.
Maybe deleting topics that do not follow the Scam Report Format?

That's a good idea because without any evidence, we as readers will not be able to verify the truth of the accusations.
If within 3 days they haven't completed the scam report format, mod should just delete or lock the thread like that and delete the topic.
The problem is, it would require active mods to provide information, warnings and take action against such threads while scam is not moderated here.

[bakasabo]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 99% of the accusation made by newbies are fake (some services doing it to tarnish the reputation and harm their competitors), I believe the most important question, in this case, would be: what can we do about it?
I believe we all agree that we/the forum should not restrict newbies from creating topics on the scam accusation board as long as there is a possibility one of those accusations might be legit.
Maybe deleting topics that do not follow the Scam Report Format?

But deleting post that does not follow scam report format also isnt right, as accusation is posted by a newbie, who is not familiar with topic section rules and forum rules, as well as such person is emotionally heated while posting. He is here to post an accusation and share his story on first place, but not to spend time understanding forum and leveling up account. I think if we do restriction, nobody would even post anything. People wont wish to get involved into all that complications, as they are here to share.

[Hatchy]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 99% of the accusation made by newbies are fake (some services doing it to tarnish the reputation and harm their competitors), I believe the most important question, in this case, would be: what can we do about it?
I believe we all agree that we/the forum should not restrict newbies from creating topics on the scam accusation board as long as there is a possibility one of those accusations might be legit.
Maybe deleting topics that do not follow the Scam Report Format?

Not everyone who comes into the forum are members or familiar with the rules here. Some just finds their way here to make complains and then you might not see them using their created account afterwards. So how then will they be aware of the scam reports format?. What I think would be proper is that when they make any complain or accusations, they should at least drop some kind of proof or evidence of what they claim. If the forum checks it and askes the casino for response but don't get any then it may be called valid. But if the casino is able to proof that it wasn't true of want the newbie is saying then a mod can just delete the post or lock the thread to avoid further complications. I think most times its better to hear from both sides before taking ay action.

[Taskford]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 99% of the accusation made by newbies are fake (some services doing it to tarnish the reputation and harm their competitors), I believe the most important question, in this case, would be: what can we do about it?
I believe we all agree that we/the forum should not restrict newbies from creating topics on the scam accusation board as long as there is a possibility one of those accusations might be legit.
Maybe deleting topics that do not follow the Scam Report Format?

But deleting post that does not follow scam report format also isnt right, as accusation is posted by a newbie, who is not familiar with topic section rules and forum rules, as well as such person is emotionally heated while posting. He is here to post an accusation and share his story on first place, but not to spend time understanding forum and leveling up account. I think if we do restriction, nobody would even post anything. People wont wish to get involved into all that complications, as they are here to share.

Maybe the least thing we could able to do is to teach them the proper format of reporting their case since provably that they would know on how to post it properly. If they didn't follow and show irrelevant things like continuing what they do even if everything they post is nonsense then we can clearly state that there's something wrong happening and that person using a newbie account is just trolling.

But if those newbie follow the rules and try to create some accusation base on the format given then we can figure out easily that their case is true and they are legitimately seeking for help also try to warn people not to gamble because they have existing issue on those casinos they are reporting.

[iv4n]

There is a saying that goes by "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I do think that the vast majority - if not all - complaints are genuine in a way that the person complaining feels like they got cheated/mistreated by the casino. I am sure the feeling itself is very real, although there is a high - about 50% - chance that the complaint is actually invalid.

Can't we say that it is malicious that some people are making accusations because they want to harm the casino? It is no less evil if someone does it because of some dissatisfaction after losing money in the casino. There are people with real issues and ones with invalid complaints, but I just wish to remind you about the third group of "paid trolls & people who can't accept when they lose".

I think that the low effort, invalid complaints are more akin to rant posts, than actual accusations, even if they call it as such.

If you want people to take you seriously, you have to tell your story and show some evidence (screenshots, conversation with the casino team, whatever you have). Just words can help, but if you have a good reputation... that comes with time & activity. Trusting someone you don't know is not wise, especially if we have only his words.

[Davidvictorson]

Most of the time the player turns out to be wrong and is using the forum to strong arm a casino. I still always start off taking the player's side until the book proves him guilty.

For some of these accusations, the casinos in question are not on bitcointalk or their handlers have become inactive. What side do one take then. Well, I have heard of the dangers of a single story and while the player with the complaint may want to play to our sympathy, I always take the a neutral side. I do the best I can to provide the player with the necessary channels and resources to pass their complaint however, until I hear the side of the casino, I stay neutral.

[darkangel11]

I always take the a neutral side. I do the best I can to provide the player with the necessary channels and resources to pass their complaint however, until I hear the side of the casino, I stay neutral.

With these cases you have to see how things develop. The police will always do the same asking both sides for their stories and then confronting them and deciding what to do.
To defend the people making these accusations, I saw a few situations where it was impossible to tell who's right. The player claimed he was banned for nothing, the casino said it was because they found ways of him trying to cheat but wouldn't provide any proof because it would help other people cheat. How would you decide who is right?
In such situation I usually take the side of the client. The casino should provide proof and explain why the player was banned, especially that they confiscated his money.

[AmoreJaz]

Most of the time the player turns out to be wrong and is using the forum to strong arm a casino. I still always start off taking the player's side until the book proves him guilty.

For some of these accusations, the casinos in question are not on bitcointalk or their handlers have become inactive. What side do one take then. Well, I have heard of the dangers of a single story and while the player with the complaint may want to play to our sympathy, I always take the a neutral side. I do the best I can to provide the player with the necessary channels and resources to pass their complaint however, until I hear the side of the casino, I stay neutral.

Some players will only go to this forum once they got screwed up by these casinos. Hence, some of these casino sites are not even here in the forum. They are thinking that the forum can help them with their issues. While it is true to some active casinos here, but for those which are not, would be very hard to find resolution of your case. But the user who came here in the forum will later found out that this forum is valuable on his gambling journey. Because as I've seen here, people will truly help you out with the situation as much as they can. As many posters are promoting gambling sites, they want to help the person in a sincere way and want to resolve the case in a fair manner. With this advantage, the new user now realized that this forum is a good source of comprehensive reviews and can actually ask for assistance if needed, that is, if he is playing on an active casino here.

[khaled0111]

Not everyone who comes into the forum are members or familiar with the rules here. Some just finds their way here to make complains and then you might not see them using their created account afterwards. So how then will they be aware of the scam reports format?.

To be clear, I have no problem with newbies posting accusation threads as long as they provide supporting evidence and I always said that the forum rank of the accuser does not matter at all, what really matter are the proofs they show us.

However, we must also think of the financial loss that companies may incur due to false claims and how to prevent it.
The forum can automatically redirect newbies to the report format thread before they can create a new topic to be sure they read it.

[bakasabo]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 99% of the accusation made by newbies are fake (some services doing it to tarnish the reputation and harm their competitors), I believe the most important question, in this case, would be: what can we do about it?
I believe we all agree that we/the forum should not restrict newbies from creating topics on the scam accusation board as long as there is a possibility one of those accusations might be legit.
Maybe deleting topics that do not follow the Scam Report Format?

But deleting post that does not follow scam report format also isnt right, as accusation is posted by a newbie, who is not familiar with topic section rules and forum rules, as well as such person is emotionally heated while posting. He is here to post an accusation and share his story on first place, but not to spend time understanding forum and leveling up account. I think if we do restriction, nobody would even post anything. People wont wish to get involved into all that complications, as they are here to share.

Maybe the least thing we could able to do is to teach them the proper format of reporting their case since provably that they would know on how to post it properly. If they didn't follow and show irrelevant things like continuing what they do even if everything they post is nonsense then we can clearly state that there's something wrong happening and that person using a newbie account is just trolling.

But if those newbie follow the rules and try to create some accusation base on the format given then we can figure out easily that their case is true and they are legitimately seeking for help also try to warn people not to gamble because they have existing issue on those casinos they are reporting.

I would not pay much attention if they have or havent posted in specific format. I would be more interested in context. Of course it would be hard to understand if someone posts just a plain wall of text. But if at least accusation would have paragraphs, and some screenshots, that it will be completely ok for me.

I dont know if it is possible, but it would be great if before making a topic, it would pass through moderation. Just to separate real problem with someone who is here only to complain about his reckless gambling, random and luck.

[dezoel]

    -    The majority of the newbies in the forum who accuse a casino are also those who have violated the rules in terms of the condition of the casino they are gambling with. The only sad thing is that others use this forum just to cover up the mistake they made in the casino platform they were accused of.

Although some are correct in the accusation of a casino that they will complain about, and usually these casinos are not reputed gambling casinos, to be honest.

It's like they know that this forum is the most popular crypto forum and this makes the casino involved threatened, so they might end up resolving things even if they know that some of them are not true. Agree about the last thing that you said. They have a good accuracy when it comes to that but it's sad at the same time. It shows that they only rush things.

That's a good idea because without any evidence, we as readers will not be able to verify the truth of the accusations.
If within 3 days they haven't completed the scam report format, mod should just delete or lock the thread like that and delete the topic.
The problem is, it would require active mods to provide information, warnings and take action against such threads while scam is not moderated here.

Yeah, I agree. There are casinos who are known to be legit and there are also casinos who are known to be a scam. If in case the casino involved in the accusation is the legit one, I think it's wrong to just be biased immediately and side on the casino, only because they are known for this. If we continue like this, we will never hear the voice of the small users who tells the truth. This is like a form of corruption or the scenario where the rich always wins over the poor.

We have a scam accusation board but I think they are only good for serious scam accusations like there is a huge amount of money involved. Some threads being posted in this section are sometimes only just a misunderstanding for both parties and often gets solved easily. There is no need for us to pressure ourselves about them and complicate things shall we?

[MFreM]

There is a saying that goes by "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I do think that the vast majority - if not all - complaints are genuine in a way that the person complaining feels like they got cheated/mistreated by the casino. I am sure the feeling itself is very real, although there is a high - about 50% - chance that the complaint is actually invalid.

Can't we say that it is malicious that some people are making accusations because they want to harm the casino? It is no less evil if someone does it because of some dissatisfaction after losing money in the casino. There are people with real issues and ones with invalid complaints, but I just wish to remind you about the third group of "paid trolls & people who can't accept when they lose".

I would not call it malice or evil per se. I consider an action malicious or evil if the purpose of the action is to hurt, and I do not think that is the case here. Making a negative review or a public complaint will negatively affect the reputation of what the review is about. Does it mean that every negative review or complaint ever made is malicious or evil? I do not think so, yet all of these affect the product, experience, or business negatively. The purpose of these actions is not to hurt but to share an experience, rant, validate their feelings, or - especially in the case of online gambling - to get someone to look at their issues and resolve them. The purpose is not to hurt; it is just a side effect. Although it definitely helps as casinos only care about their profits, which correlate with their reputation. So the mere threat to their reputation makes them more likely to spend resources to resolve the issue instead of just ignoring the player forever. Of course, proper oversight and regulatory authority -if there were such- could also enforce issue resolution through either fines or license revocations.

I would definitely not treat paid trolls and people who can't accept losing in the same group.

The latter group is emotion-driven; they want to rant, get compassion, and believe that the house cheated them because otherwise, they would need to face the sad reality that they are morons who just gambled away the rent money. The purpose of their complaints is for them not to feel so bad about themselves, not to hurt the casino, although that happens as a side effect.

The former group is malicious; their purpose is to hurt the reputation of the casino. I just thought about it, and this group is supposed to have the most resources. It makes no sense to me what many forum members believe — that the vast majority of complaining new users are part of this group: trolls whose purpose is to hurt the casino. They have the resources to either buy or "grow" credible accounts and use those for accusations and complaints. Why would they go with fresh, low effort, totally uncredible accounts?

[iv4n]

Can't we say that it is malicious that some people are making accusations because they want to harm the casino? It is no less evil if someone does it because of some dissatisfaction after losing money in the casino. There are people with real issues and ones with invalid complaints, but I just wish to remind you about the third group of "paid trolls & people who can't accept when they lose".

Does it mean that every negative review or complaint ever made is malicious or evil? I do not think so, yet all of these affect the product, experience, or business negatively. The purpose of these actions is not to hurt but to share an experience, rant, validate their feelings, or - especially in the case of online gambling - to get someone to look at their issues and resolve them.

I quoted the important part, a negative review or complaint can't be malicious if it's honest, and honest reviews come from fair players. Everything else is malicious and evil, with one purpose to harm the reputation. You can create groups and subgroups if you wish to dig that deep, but I have tried to provide a simple explanation that anyone can understand.

It makes no sense to me what many forum members believe — that the vast majority of complaining new users are part of this group: trolls whose purpose is to hurt the casino. They have the resources to either buy or "grow" credible accounts and use those for accusations and complaints. Why would they go with fresh, low effort, totally uncredible accounts?

Maybe you have to spend many years here reading various complaints, or you need to grow older and understand how the world works and how people think, I guess that's experience. At first, you may believe everyone, but after a while, the words themselves don't make much sense if they aren't backed up by "something", "anything". The bottom line, many forum members have been in crypto for years/decade, experienced people who tried a lot of things (I am sure that many can write a book about all the things they experienced), and they will not trust anything without checking it, double checking it, taking a look from all possible angles. Just words don't mean much (I already said that) if they are not backed up by some proof! I believe many will agree with me about this, we don't care if account is new/fresh and why they are doing something, we try to be objective and based on our experience we will decide should we trust someone or not... and to repeat once again, many will not trust just words.

[delfastTions]

Can't we say that it is malicious that some people are making accusations because they want to harm the casino? It is no less evil if someone does it because of some dissatisfaction after losing money in the casino. There are people with real issues and ones with invalid complaints, but I just wish to remind you about the third group of "paid trolls & people who can't accept when they lose".

Does it mean that every negative review or complaint ever made is malicious or evil? I do not think so, yet all of these affect the product, experience, or business negatively. The purpose of these actions is not to hurt but to share an experience, rant, validate their feelings, or - especially in the case of online gambling - to get someone to look at their issues and resolve them.

I quoted the important part, a negative review or complaint can't be malicious if it's honest, and honest reviews come from fair players. Everything else is malicious and evil, with one purpose to harm the reputation. You can create groups and subgroups if you wish to dig that deep, but I have tried to provide a simple explanation that anyone can understand.

It makes no sense to me what many forum members believe — that the vast majority of complaining new users are part of this group: trolls whose purpose is to hurt the casino. They have the resources to either buy or "grow" credible accounts and use those for accusations and complaints. Why would they go with fresh, low effort, totally uncredible accounts?

Maybe you have to spend many years here reading various complaints, or you need to grow older and understand how the world works and how people think, I guess that's experience. At first, you may believe everyone, but after a while, the words themselves don't make much sense if they aren't backed up by "something", "anything". The bottom line, many forum members have been in crypto for years/decade, experienced people who tried a lot of things (I am sure that many can write a book about all the things they experienced), and they will not trust anything without checking it, double checking it, taking a look from all possible angles. Just words don't mean much (I already said that) if they are not backed up by some proof! I believe many will agree with me about this, we don't care if account is new/fresh and why they are doing something, we try to be objective and based on our experience we will decide should we trust someone or not... and to repeat once again, many will not trust just words.

I think that a player who has been gambling for a long time can be said to intuitively understand when the claims of an offended player to a casino are really justified and make sense to find out the motives for such unlawful (from the point of view of the offended player) actions of the casino itself. 
Also, an experienced player will most likely recognize custom posts on forums or individual articles about gaming stories by some of the authors of such articles, which are clearly aimed at creating a negative or positive branding of this particular casino. 
It’s just that sometimes you read such an article and you just get struck by how stupid and naive the author of such an article is in presenting arguments that either damage or unnecessarily praise the casino. 
Probably, of course, novice players can take such custom articles and reviews seriously, but experienced players, of course, only laugh at the stupidity of the authors of such articles.  And sometimes even experienced players can admire what utter nonsense the author comes up with, and even seriously tells it to his readers.