Symmetric Step Trading: Now Closed

[SymStep]

This fund is now closed and fully funded by private investor after May 28.

[SymStep]

IPO details are included now in the OP.

[twentyseventy]

Liked your introductory paragraph. Can you guys provide any hard numbers about your past performance and/or any evidence to back it up?

[runam0k]

With respect, this is literally "send us your BTCs and trust us because we can compose a reasonably well written thread".

It's an improvement on some of the IPO threads we see around here, granted, but there is still zero possibility of any recourse should you decide to disappear with people's bitcoins.

A trusted member should be provided with and be able to verify ID for one of the partners at a minimum.

You say you are "in discussion about a passthrough structure for listing on a new exchange" -- in discussion with whom?  Will they be verifying ID?

[SymStep]

@twentyseventy: Thank you. We do not know that past performance will be a very reliable indicator but we hope that it will continue to be. The activity on exchanges has changed very much since we started and also we did not track performance numbers in percentage terms of invested funds because we kept adding more bitcoins into the project over the months. For example when we added 25% more to our investment funds in week 3 of the month this makes gains at the end of the month underestimate real gains as percentage because at the start of the month we had 20% lower funds to invest. When we started we did not think to offer fund with others so we did not track performance like this.

@runakOk: Thank you. We agree that this is very limiting for people who will not be involved with any anonymous fund and we respect that maybe this will be most people. We must be very careful about our identities even for only one of us because the connection between us is known to some people. If we list with a passthrough structure then operator would become public face of fund and we just manage. This would be preferred for us because it separates us from the exchange but also we are looking at ways to make share transfers without an exchange and without contacting us. For example we may suggest that shares transfer by agreement to transfer private key for ownership address from seller to buyer.

[jimmothy]

Verify ID and list on havelock and I'm sure many might consider investing.

[Neo.op]

Firstly, it is one of the most detailed IPO description I have seen. Most skip on the details. Though I have some questions:
a. as asked by twentyseventy - Past results? While it might be less indicative of future performance, this will gives us an idea if the method being employed was at least successful. And if the profit has dried down with many people doing the same thing?

b. Automation - It seems rather strange that the modelling of the method lead to overfitting. Does it mean there is some discretionary part in the plan which has not been covered in the IPO description?

[twentyseventy]

@twentyseventy: Thank you. We do not know that past performance will be a very reliable indicator but we hope that it will continue to be. The activity on exchanges has changed very much since we started and also we did not track performance numbers in percentage terms of invested funds because we kept adding more bitcoins into the project over the months. For example when we added 25% more to our investment funds in week 3 of the month this makes gains at the end of the month underestimate real gains as percentage because at the start of the month we had 20% lower funds to invest. When we started we did not think to offer fund with others so we did not track performance like this.

@runakOk: Thank you. We agree that this is very limiting for people who will not be involved with any anonymous fund and we respect that maybe this will be most people. We must be very careful about our identities even for only one of us because the connection between us is known to some people. If we list with a passthrough structure then operator would become public face of fund and we just manage. This would be preferred for us because it separates us from the exchange but also we are looking at ways to make share transfers without an exchange and without contacting us. For example we may suggest that shares transfer by agreement to transfer private key for ownership address from seller to buyer.

While I understand that you may not have kept impeccable records, you should at least have some records of buys/sells, deposits, etc. Any exchange would keep track of this information. It's not enough here to say 'we've definitely made money in the past, but we don't have any proof of that'.

[SymStep]

@twentyseventy: Thank you. During last nine months our total investment capital in bitcoins is 36% above amount we have put into our funds but this makes gains underestimate real gains because of our additions to funds during those months.

@Neo.op: Thank you. Yes we think method has been successful but not as successful as buying more futures which we did before applying the symmetric step method. The method has improved because more people are doing price arbitrage. Yes a human is needed to decide before executing order setup especially when exchange allows dark liquidity. Decision about risk of hidden orders must consider the hour of day and recent dark liquidity but maybe still get it wrong. It is easy to identify order book setups but not so easy to decide when not to do anything with a setup.

@jimmothy: Thank you. Before verifying our identity we must trust the other party and know details of what they do with this knowledge but nobody knows exactly who is Havelock or their legal regulations. For passthrough we only deal with one person to be known to us and trustworthy and only they deal with exchange.

[Peter Lambert]

Who are you? It has been shown over and over again that having an anonymous business owner does not work for investors.

[Darkstone2]

@twentyseventy: Thank you. During last nine months our total investment capital in bitcoins is 36% above amount we have put into our funds but this makes gains underestimate real gains because of our additions to funds during those months.

That doen't make any sense. My own trading bot is up 55500% since i first booted it up, i have csv's with data from every account and automated scripts to create graphs from that.

If i wanted to, i'm able to give that information to investors. Yet, you company had been running for way longer than my 'adventure', is evidently way more professional, and all you can do is provide a vague statement that we've made 36% profit over the last 9 months.

If i was an investor, i would like a bit more information than '36% up in 9 months'. Notice i say how i'm up 55500%, a statement that does not tell you anything. Perhaps my initial investment was 1 doge.

While I understand that you may not have kept impeccable records, you should at least have some records of buys/sells, deposits, etc. Any exchange would keep track of this information. It's not enough here to say 'we've definitely made money in the past, but we don't have any proof of that'.

This is a lot harder than it looks. I asked the folks at bter.com for a ful trading history to analyze, they gave me an csv with 12000 trades... spanning a total of 3½ days. It doesn't get any better on different exchanges.

[Neo.op]

This is a lot harder than it looks. I asked the folks at bter.com for a ful trading history to analyze, they gave me an csv with 12000 trades... spanning a total of 3½ days. It doesn't get any better on different exchanges.

Wait...do you mean they gave their complete executed orderbook? Cause 12000 trades in 3.5 days just seems too much for a single account - if true, hats off to you man.
And on that, I certainly would love to hear more about this 55000% up bot

[Darkstone2]

Wait...do you mean they gave their complete executed orderbook?

Yes they did. But the way Bter keeps track of 'trades' highly amplifies the amount of entries in their database. So that number means nothing really.

I just wanted to point out that getting an decent history of trades is a lot harder than it seems. This is kind of suck, since the exchanges are nothing more than giant bookkeeping companies.

[jimmothy]

See here.

Get that bullshit out of here.

Theres a reason nobody posts in that thread or takes it seriously.

[SymStep]

@darkstone2: Thank you. I do not understand what it is vague about gaining 36% during 9 months but I think you are making a joke about your bot that already turned 1 unit of currency into 556 units of currency. We use automated tools for identifying order book setups but we do not have an automatic trading bot.

@Peter Lambert: Thank you. It is a great strength of bitcoin that it affords anonymity but we agree that often this has not worked for serving investors. We know that some anonymous users get great trust from doing many successful transactions and then whenever they want they can run away with thousands of bitcoins. For example many people had great trust for TradeFortress and give him their bitcoins when he says he will make profits and give them 22% per year. But how did he ever make these profits and why did people trust when they did not know? We think investors safety benefits from knowing how someone does make their profits when they are anonymous or when they are known by name. So we hope our explanation is easy to understand.

[railzand]

See here.

The pupil becomes the master

[Darkstone2]

@darkstone2: Thank you. I do not understand what it is vague about gaining 36% during 9 months but I think you are making a joke about your bot that already turned 1 unit of currency into 556 units of currency. We use automated tools for identifying order book setups but we do not have an automatic trading bot.

There's an high change that the trading algorithm you are using has some kind of correlation between the gain and the amount of cash required.

For example, algorithm X has 10 bitcoin available, over some amount of time algorithm X turns that into 15 bitcoin.
In an different, but parallel dimension, algorithm X has 100 bitcoins to work with. Will the final amount of bitcoins be 105, 150 or something close than 200? In case of my bot, you would end with 105, thus seeking investors is useless.

If you can say with how many bitcoins you started with, and with how many bitcoins you ended with, and can explain why you think the profit margin rises (or levels, as measured in percentages) when you have more capital available. Then you have a much better business case. Based on your IPO's financial structure i expect that you've traded with an amount of between 5 and 10 bitcoins so far.

[SymStep]

@darkstone2: Maybe our explanation has not been good for understanding. Relationship of capital to order book depth happens because moving the market price is adding new "steps" to order book or removing old "steps" from order book. Placing market order for full amount available at a given price removes that step from order book and market price changes to next step in order book. For example when method can take out only one or two steps from the order book because we have not enough capital then asymmetries that are deeper in the order book are past our reach. We can identify them but we cannot act on them. When method can remove more steps from the order book because we have more capital then we can reach asymmetries that are deeper.

[railzand]

See here.

The pupil becomes the master

My intention is only to pay tribute to the fallen.

Sounds too final. Hope not

[binderclip]

Do you have a website? This is an interesting idea but how do I know you've actually pulled it off? For an example of transparency check out the website for variable reinvestment mining (I have no affiliation)