Bitcoin in the next decade

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

We actually need money to meet the needs of our daily life and if we consider Bitcoin as a means of earning that money, then the problem starts from here.

There is likely a BIGGER suck on the money if you need the money to live, and if you are trying to live off of your trades.

I would think that the better traders either have a side income so that they do not have to draw from their trading funds, which might mean that they have another job or maybe they have some investments that allow them to draw a sufficient passive income so that they are not pressured to withdraw from their trading account in order to pay their basic expenses.

Long term investment is definitely the right strategy for Bitcoin. After gaining long-term investment experience and holding Bitcoin for a period of 4-10 years, it is probably a logical decision to separate trading strategies with long term investment. Although I could be wrong because I am still a newbie investor. Correct me if I am wrong with reasoning.

Historically  investment in bitcoin has been quite profitable, even though it is not guaranteed. It would be hardpressed to see anyone regularlly trading over 8 years or more to actually be able to beat bitcoin investing over the same period.

Good luck to anyone trying to trade bitcoin, you are going to need it.. as compared with the investor who is consistently buying bitcoin persistently, regularly, ongoingly and perhaps even aggressively and ongoingly building his bitcoin and his investment size.  Investing in bitcoin is not guaranteed.. yet it seems to have way better odds than any trader, even the better of traders, especially if we were to measure performance over 8 years or longer.

There is no way to say that you can definitely profit from investing, but when it comes to investing, there is actually a lot to be said, especially those who have held Bitcoin for more than eight or 10 years and have definitely been profitable after holding it for this long time. When many people tell their investment success stories, but such comments are not found that a person has achieved success like an investor by trading for 10 years. This is clear that there is a lot of difference between investing and trading, on the one hand, you have to rely on luck in trading, on the other hand, this does not happen in investing because holding it for ten years or more and then seeing a result is definitely not dependent on luck.

Even though bitcoin has been profitable over any 4 year period or longer,. especially if there is ONLY buying and holding going on and no trading (or selling), yet past performance does not guarantee future results.  In other words bitcoin is still not guaranteed to be profitable even if we do everything correct and invest 10 years or more.

Dude, the future of bitcoin is not set in stone, so when you buy Bitcoin there is no guarantee that you will even make profit from it.  Though historically bitcoin did just fine over long periods mostly for people who buy and hold for long period like a cycle and more.

So while ongoingly buying, do so only with cash that you could afford to loose, and that money is regarded as Discretionary Imcome

Many people see investment in Bitcoin as a financial break through but they forget that it doesn't just happen like that and it has a way of happening, true time and patience has a way of making the unthinkable happen but still we all should try and remove that idea of making it big through Bitcoin, it will happen but not how many sees it, like too quick. Some buy and hold but up till now they haven't gotten what they're expecting, we should learn from how people see Bitcoin investment.

4-5 years to see results, real ones, give or take.
If the person in question wants quick profits - btc IS not for him.

Even though historically bitcoin has always been profitable for those who focus on ongoing buying and holding for 4-5 years or longer, bitcoin is not guaranteed to be profitable, even in that same timeframe.

[Sexylizzy2813]

Dude, the future of bitcoin is not set in stone, so when you buy Bitcoin there is no guarantee that you will even make profit from it.  Though historically bitcoin did just fine over long periods mostly for people who buy and hold for long period like a cycle and more.

So while ongoingly buying, do so only with cash that you could afford to loose, and that money is regarded as Discretionary Imcome

Many people see investment in Bitcoin as a financial break through but they forget that it doesn't just happen like that and it has a way of happening, true time and patience has a way of making the unthinkable happen but still we all should try and remove that idea of making it big through Bitcoin, it will happen but not how many sees it, like too quick. Some buy and hold but up till now they haven't gotten what they're expecting, we should learn from how people see Bitcoin investment.

4-5 years to see results, real ones, give or take.

If the person in question wants quick profits - btc IS not for him.

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

[Dogedegen]

You don't need a wealth of knowledge to get started investing in bitcoin.  All you need is some common sense and discretionary funds, and you can get started investing in bitcoin.

If you have common sense, then you know that you adjust your investment size to your knowledge level and if you don't have a lot of knowledge, then you likely would decide to start out investing with a small amount, and ONLY increase your amount invested (whether weekly or otherwise) as your comfort level increases.

I fully agree with you on this and disagree with the other guy. Basically no knowledge is needed and if we consider what really happens in the world then we know that this is true. How many people waste money in all kinds of things including fringe and good sounding investment scams that they know nothing about? They invest in all kinds of things from shitcoins to traditional MLM or ponzi scams, therefore to start investing deep knowledge about these subjects is not needed. One can start investing and then learn more and more on the way, which if I recall is something that we have already stated before.

Presently it has been more of an open field for institutional investors cause the price of bitcoin is still affordable for institutions. It still not an excuse to steer to shitcoins for their cheapness.

You sound distracted.

The fact that institutions, governments and/or status quo rich folks are recently seeming to buy more bitcoin should give some hints that ongoing buying of bitcoin might be a good idea rather than being worried about whether the BTC price might drop, when it might not.    

Even if newbie bitcoiners might have trouble figuring out ways to establish a 4-10 year or longer investment timeline (and most cases more than 10 years unless you have age and/or health issues that interfere with that), they likely need to get started and to figure out that it is likely that they are investing in bitcoin for 10 years or longer.  But hey whatever, newbies are free to wait and to get distracted by ideas the BTC price might drop, when it might not.

I find it a bit strange how people find flaws with whatever is going on at any time of this journey. If we considered a time when there were no regulations, no ETFs, no institutions many users were rightfully asking for those for a long time. Some didn't care and a few others wanted to reject regulations all together with some ideological perspectives that do not apply int he real world. Now that we have gained a lot of regulation, maturity, stability, they still find problems with it yet again. What I see as a pattern is increasing social anxiety, which is something that gmaxwell wrote about in one of my threads here, and it seems that too many people are consuming digital content and information. With Bitcoin it is often price data or FUD, if you go to X and read some content on this topic you will basically hurt your own intellect.

Maybe we could state instead that it has features of both gold and cash, so it is kind of acting as a mix between digital gold and digital cash in terms of functionality and features? I agree it is better to refer to it as Bitcoin unless we are talking about specific features and characteristics. Some people may not spend a lot of time researching the things and may take away something wrong if we keep referring to it as digital gold or something without providing more information.

Surely we might sometimes want to highlight certain attributes, yet it could be problematic to overly lock bitcoin into a category when it likely crosses over some of the traditional categories.

I agree, that is why we should not limit it to any category or multiple categories. It is its own category, but it has features of many existing things which should be highlighted. I think referring back to those features helps a lot to understand what Bitcoin is for some people. If you think about it, comparing it to physical cash and saying that it can fulfill the function of digital cash makes it quite easy to understand and it also ties back into some concept. Some people get confused about what change is in their wallets and how change addresses work, but when one thinks of cash payments and change it is quite easy to understand.

I understand that for example after a hard day at working cooking a good meal can be hard,

And even folks who likely realize it is better to know the ingredients of what we eat, younger people can tolerate bad food a bit better than older people, and so sometimes younger people might not even realize that the food they are eating is causing a lot of negative health consequences until they are a bit older, and then they end up suffering from some kind of a health event that then stimulates them into learning about nutrition - including having to come to their own conclusions (which might differ from what they thought previously) regarding the role of nutrition, sleep and exercise.

Food is a good comparison to think about the topic of how many people may be doing things that hurt them for many reasons. Some don't know anything about these things and some others know but don't do anything about it, which is exactly the same that what is happening with the world of money and Bitcoin. And if you continue this line of reasoning it is quite similar even more! Eating bad food won't cause much harm in the short term, but neither will some normal levels of inflation or money printing. But the harm will be shown in the long term and it compounds hard, the negative effects of this over 20-30 years or even more are astonishingly high!

We might not realize those matters until we are in our 40s or even later.  Sure some folks figure it out early, yet sometimes when they are eating some items out of a box and the box says "heart healthy" they might not realize that they are being lied to, including not knowing that natural foods are good for you including eggs and animal fats as compared with industrial oils and the body of young people might be able to  tolerate including athletes might not realize either, since they are otherwise strong, relatively speaking.

Yes I have taken a look at a lot of products and snacks especially that are labeled as healthy and they are almost all exclusively scams. A lot of people need to be remembered that real and healthy food does not have an ingredient list that looks like a long poem. I'm quite susceptible to these and luckily have been able to notice that they cause me all sorts of subtle negative effects since I was young.

It could be a vicious cycle, challenging work leads to eating worse food or not engaging in healthy behaviors because one is drained, which makes the work even more challenging and this just goes on.

And there can be genetic aberrations too.. .. so that some folks might tolerate abuse of their body much more than others.

Yes but I don't often bring those up because from the percentage population I consider them exceptions. Still if we would summarize all sorts of generic exceptions and people that have health issues that impact these things such as thyroid issues I guess it could add up to a quarter or third of the whole population?

I recall that I had some periods in which I would go out  on a Friday and/or Saturday night (and even other days of the week), and then I would get just a few hours sleep and then go train for a marathon (running), and there were several groups, the faster ones left earlier (like 7am or maybe before that) and the slower groups started later, maybe after 7:30am), so we generally would know the route and the distance for that week, so I would purposefully show up when most of the groups had already departed so that I could challenge myself to see how many of the faster groups I could catch up to and pass up.. and it was a bit of my own challenge, so that if we had a training run that was close to 20 miles, sometimes I would end up catching up to some of the fastest groups, but then I would feel better than them (psychologically) because I had started out 30-40 minutes later and still caught up to them.  hahahahaha..   It is dumb, but sometimes we can feel invincible (and even immortal) when we our in certain parts of what we believe to be our physical prime.

Oh my some of this story is quite similar to some of my past experiences except that I didn't do it in groups but usually ran solo so there was nobody to be faster than myself. During my peak form in my youth, some of my best early Sunday runs and times were after a night of heavy drinking and very few hours of sleep. lol The human body is amazing in its youth but it has to be used and pushed hard, this is also why I feel sorry for the youth now. I see many people that are very overweight and that must be a terrible experience compared to someone who is very fit at those ages. Whatever you want to do in that case is much harder for you.

He used to claim that he would never sell his bitcoin, but he changed his position.

He used to proclaim that various actions of MSTR were accretive to MSTR shares - yet there seems to be a lot of questions regarding the truth of those claims, even though surely if the BTC price goes shooting up, folks who are buying MSTR shares and other MSTR products might start to feel that Saylor ended up delivering, even though they might have had been better off to just stay in bitcoin.  Of course, if MSTR pumps higher and faster than bitcoin then they could profit from that extra pump and leverage, even though they would have to sell MSTR in order to accomplish that extra profit.  Anyhow, there can be a sense that Saylor is manipulating too much to print money, which is partly what he said that he would do, and surely folks can lose confidence when they look at his various statements over the end of 2024 and in early 2025, but then see that MSTR lost way more value relative to bitcoin over 2025, so then feel that Saylor had lied to them even though Saylor had also disclosed that MSTR would likely be more volatile to the upside and to the downside which is a truth that still might feel like a lie, and losses in confidence.

While I think from one side that criticism is appropriate then again I don't. Is he not doing what he said that he would do? It seems to me that he is, but we can't expect perfection from him in this crazy adventure. He has to make some mistakes especially since this is an innovative thing that he is doing, and neither does he have really past experience with this. Some of those moves were probably not so good, but others and the idea itself is fantastic. I don't think that we can blame him for MSTR price declining because he didn't do something really negative to harm it. It seems to me that it was massively overvalued before and that it has returned to more appropriate valuation levels, but that can't be his fault the overvaluation I mean that can only be the buyers fault unless there is some misrepresentation and manipulations by the company which there weren't.

Sure, young people have to identify their career direction, and sometimes they might make bad choices and/or not prepare enough for things that they might claim that they want to do.  since certain kinds of careers (or even getting rich) will likely take some effort, and other folks might find themselves in careers they perceive to be dead ends, so then they might have to figure out if they are ready, willing and/or able to retrain.

The challenges of each age are different, and both young people and older people do not necessarily understand the extent to which the debasement of the money contributes to a lot of problems and they might not know what to do about the matter, even if they can identify the debasement of the money problem, even though bitcoin is available as likely partial solution for anyone who is able to generate discretionary income, but yeah, it can be pretty depressing to be buying bitcoin from a shitty job that hardly pays enough to generate a discretionary income, and surely anyone who is able to get a raise (or a promotion or cross trained) would then have more discretionary income to be able to invest into bitcoin, yet sometimes the route to better pay is not an easy one that normies are ready, willing and/or able to do.

To be honest and I don't mean to sound patronizing or anything like that please don't see me this way I just share my personal experiences, I would say that less than 10% or even at times 5% of people know anything about money and debasement. Over the course of my life I have seen people bring up all kinds of topics, topics that they understand, topics that they don't understand, silver, gold, scams, exercising to technology, but I have very rarely ever encountered someone that talks about money and knows about these issues. I am ignoring people who work in these areas obviously they know, I am talking about meeting average people throughout your life. Sure you can find people to talk to about this if you go to certain places and events, but that is besides the point that I am making.
I do not know if this knowledge is any better with the younger generation now, this is where they do have an advantage even if they have other challenges like I mentioned the dopamine addiction and stuff. The information has never been so available as it is now, and this topic has never been talked about as much as it has been since Bitcoin has arrived to the scene. Even if many people don't understand or case about it, I think that their chances to figure it out and join the movement are better than ever and that is something positive. What do you think?

[gunhell16]

Owing to the current adoption of bitcoin, we can say that majority of investors are not interested in knowing much about what bitcoin really is and why it was created in the first place. Their intentions are only driven by the fact that they can double their investment over a couple of years. Like I've said before in some other similar discussions, we take a look at people buying shares in the ETFs, they don't care if what they own isn't BTC so long they make profits.

Fact is government has never been an advocate for decentralised, so it's obvious that the current surge of interest feels fundamentally compromised because the driving force is speculative greed, not a commitment to decentralisation, which is what bitcoin truly stands for..

I do believe that there are indeed investors whose only goal with Bitcoin is to hold it long-term, and they don’t even bother learning about it they just need to be confident they’ll get a strong return on their Bitcoin investment if they hold onto it for several years.

And you’re right that governments are opposed to decentralized systems. That’s why some countries even banned Bitcoin initially, only to reverse those bans later. They couldn’t stop Bitcoin’s price from surging in the crypto market, and many large investors only grew more interested in investing in it.

[MarjorieZimmermanGinger]

Okay you can take it as a pessimistic POV but ever since the interest by government and institutions I feel we are losing on decentralization and privacy.
Don't get me wrong, I love to see Bitcoin price rising and adoptions but it's like the reason is rising is flawed. People joining for sometime now are only in it for the potential price increase and care nothing about a decentralized system.

Many people out there never bother with privacy or decentralized systems when investing because they're focused on how to make a profit during the investment journey. I've asked several people if they know anything about privacy or decentralization and most people who aren't on Bitcointalk never bothered. They only think about buying and selling when the price peaks and never even think about privacy or decentralization. Since the rise in government interest in Bitcoin as a reserve asset, people think it's much better because they think that when governments open up things will become easier.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

Of course, you can do what you like, even though bitcoin tends to be better as a long term play and not to think about price while you are building up your bitcoin stash.

If you are always thinking in the short term and you are not able to think 10 year plus, then you are likely going continue to struggle to see how you are able to benefit from bitcoin in meaningful ways.

[edited out]

I find it a bit strange how people find flaws with whatever is going on at any time of this journey. If we considered a time when there were no regulations, no ETFs, no institutions many users were rightfully asking for those for a long time. Some didn't care and a few others wanted to reject regulations all together with some ideological perspectives that do not apply int he real world. Now that we have gained a lot of regulation, maturity, stability,

Bitcoin is far from mature - even though we are in a process in which increasing financialization is taking place, and surely there are legitimate questions regarding the extent to which various kinds of cooptation is currently being attempted to happen on bitcoin.  It's a process, and not all stages are comfortable.

they still find problems with it yet again. What I see as a pattern is increasing social anxiety, which is something that gmaxwell wrote about in one of my threads here, and it seems that too many people are consuming digital content and information. With Bitcoin it is often price data or FUD, if you go to X and read some content on this topic you will basically hurt your own intellect.

There are confusing times, and perhaps that could be part of the objective to drive the price down so that some more of the status quo powers that be can load their bags... and if discontent and confusion is sewn, there might be some more holders willing to give up their keys and to not wait out aspects of the difficult times.

Maybe we could state instead that it has features of both gold and cash, so it is kind of acting as a mix between digital gold and digital cash in terms of functionality and features? I agree it is better to refer to it as Bitcoin unless we are talking about specific features and characteristics. Some people may not spend a lot of time researching the things and may take away something wrong if we keep referring to it as digital gold or something without providing more information.

Surely we might sometimes want to highlight certain attributes, yet it could be problematic to overly lock bitcoin into a category when it likely crosses over some of the traditional categories.

I agree, that is why we should not limit it to any category or multiple categories. It is its own category, but it has features of many existing things which should be highlighted. I think referring back to those features helps a lot to understand what Bitcoin is for some people. If you think about it, comparing it to physical cash and saying that it can fulfill the function of digital cash makes it quite easy to understand and it also ties back into some concept. Some people get confused about what change is in their wallets and how change addresses work, but when one thinks of cash payments and change it is quite easy to understand.

New things can sometimes take time to get used to. And, likely it also takes time for normies to move over to private wallets, so many times their coins will be held with third party providers - which has its own challenges, even though it might be easier to use and no need to manage UTXOs.

He used to claim that he would never sell his bitcoin, but he changed his position.

He used to proclaim that various actions of MSTR were accretive to MSTR shares - yet there seems to be a lot of questions regarding the truth of those claims, even though surely if the BTC price goes shooting up, folks who are buying MSTR shares and other MSTR products might start to feel that Saylor ended up delivering, even though they might have had been better off to just stay in bitcoin.  Of course, if MSTR pumps higher and faster than bitcoin then they could profit from that extra pump and leverage, even though they would have to sell MSTR in order to accomplish that extra profit.  Anyhow, there can be a sense that Saylor is manipulating too much to print money, which is partly what he said that he would do, and surely folks can lose confidence when they look at his various statements over the end of 2024 and in early 2025, but then see that MSTR lost way more value relative to bitcoin over 2025, so then feel that Saylor had lied to them even though Saylor had also disclosed that MSTR would likely be more volatile to the upside and to the downside which is a truth that still might feel like a lie, and losses in confidence.

While I think from one side that criticism is appropriate then again I don't. Is he not doing what he said that he would do? It seems to me that he is, but we can't expect perfection from him in this crazy adventure. He has to make some mistakes especially since this is an innovative thing that he is doing, and neither does he have really past experience with this. Some of those moves were probably not so good, but others and the idea itself is fantastic. I don't think that we can blame him for MSTR price declining because he didn't do something really negative to harm it.

I was not blaming Saylor or MSTR for BTC's recent price drop, and surely Saylor has been taking advantage of a glitch in the debt system and also being very open about what he is doing and also promoting bitcoin..  I am not going to applaud everything he has been doing either, even though he has a right to do them, and there are aspects of what he has been doing that does not have good ramifications for self-sovereignty and privacy and from my point of view, sometimes Saylor does not give enough respect (and/or praise) to private usages of bitcoin - which from my point of view are the foundations of where bitcoin gets its value.

It seems to me that it was massively overvalued before and that it has returned to more appropriate valuation levels, but that can't be his fault the overvaluation I mean that can only be the buyers fault unless there is some misrepresentation and manipulations by the company which there weren't.

Sure.  A lot of that part is just the hype of the market, even Saylor is not innocent in regards to some of the hyperbole in regards to his company beating everything.. which was not very true in 2025, so he had to change some of his talking points which were a bit problematic in their implications... even though I agree that he probably did not do anything wrong enough for any legal proceedings against him to prevail in regards to what he was saying.

Sure, young people have to identify their career direction, and sometimes they might make bad choices and/or not prepare enough for things that they might claim that they want to do.  since certain kinds of careers (or even getting rich) will likely take some effort, and other folks might find themselves in careers they perceive to be dead ends, so then they might have to figure out if they are ready, willing and/or able to retrain.

The challenges of each age are different, and both young people and older people do not necessarily understand the extent to which the debasement of the money contributes to a lot of problems and they might not know what to do about the matter, even if they can identify the debasement of the money problem, even though bitcoin is available as likely partial solution for anyone who is able to generate discretionary income, but yeah, it can be pretty depressing to be buying bitcoin from a shitty job that hardly pays enough to generate a discretionary income, and surely anyone who is able to get a raise (or a promotion or cross trained) would then have more discretionary income to be able to invest into bitcoin, yet sometimes the route to better pay is not an easy one that normies are ready, willing and/or able to do.

To be honest and I don't mean to sound patronizing or anything like that please don't see me this way I just share my personal experiences, I would say that less than 10% or even at times 5% of people know anything about money and debasement. Over the course of my life I have seen people bring up all kinds of topics, topics that they understand, topics that they don't understand, silver, gold, scams, exercising to technology, but I have very rarely ever encountered someone that talks about money and knows about these issues. I am ignoring people who work in these areas obviously they know, I am talking about meeting average people throughout your life. Sure you can find people to talk to about this if you go to certain places and events, but that is besides the point that I am making.

I can't really disagree with you that people don't really know about money very well, even though bitcoin is helping people to learn about money... or at least understand some or the manipulative aspects of money.

I do not know if this knowledge is any better with the younger generation now, this is where they do have an advantage even if they have other challenges like I mentioned the dopamine addiction and stuff.

Of course, some young people have problems, and I would hate to want to attempt to point out all the potential issues facing young people, even with woke culture... but that's a discussion for another day.  I do think that some of them will learn about bitcoin to the extent that they are not led astray into shitcoins, so there will be some of them learning about money through their exposure to bitcoin... and likely more and more of the world is going to increasingly be learning about bitcoin - hopefully the self-sovereignty angles of bitcoin.

The information has never been so available as it is now, and this topic has never been talked about as much as it has been since Bitcoin has arrived to the scene. Even if many people don't understand or case about it, I think that their chances to figure it out and join the movement are better than ever and that is something positive. What do you think?

we are largely on the same page about information being available, yet their is  a lot of misinformation too.... and even ongoing attempts to control information.. ..and maybe decentralized locations like Nostr can be helpful too.  Sometimes it can be difficult to engage in meaningful critical thinking and some folks will come to believe that they are engaging in critical thinking merely because they are skeptical or black pilled.. and sometimes more is needed to help folks to sort through good information and bad information.. and I am not going to proclaim to know how these matters can be achieved, since there are problems with the control of the internet and even digital identification being pushed... even movies based on fantasies including gender representations in movies... which then gets into bullshit ideas of women beating up men, and even though there is some satisfaction in the underdog winning, some of the movies are a bit outrageous in their depictcions or lack of being based in reality (perhaps attempts to create new ideas about reality).

Okay you can take it as a pessimistic POV but ever since the interest by government and institutions I feel we are losing on decentralization and privacy.
Don't get me wrong, I love to see Bitcoin price rising and adoptions but it's like the reason is rising is flawed. People joining for sometime now are only in it for the potential price increase and care nothing about a decentralized system.

Many people out there never bother with privacy or decentralized systems when investing because they're focused on how to make a profit during the investment journey. I've asked several people if they know anything about privacy or decentralization and most people who aren't on Bitcointalk never bothered. They only think about buying and selling when the price peaks and never even think about privacy or decentralization. Since the rise in government interest in Bitcoin as a reserve asset, people think it's much better because they think that when governments open up things will become easier.

Of course government intervention is not necessarily helpful when it interferes with privacy and self-sovereignty over finances, which includes various ways of controlling bitcoin through financial institutions and third party custodians (and other kinds of third parties involved in providing bitcoin services or apps).. look at the Samurai developers.  it is not a pretty sight and it is not even a just outcome to a case to have developers in jail or otherwise overly-punished when they likely did not do anything wrong besides speaking up.

So surely there are aspects of government intervention that merely wants to interfere with privacy and self-sovereignty including dissuading (and putting obstacles in the middle of) normies from holding their own keys.

[henry_of_skalitz]

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

If we take BTC in terms of getting a quickie, the person in question would most likely panic sell or sell during the time there won't be profit, but  big red line across the board

That's my point, but, sure, every person does what he thinks is best to him and his bag.

[Sexylizzy2813]

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

Of course, you can do what you like, even though bitcoin tends to be better as a long term play and not to think about price while you are building up your bitcoin stash.

If you are always thinking in the short term and you are not able to think 10 year plus, then you are likely going continue to struggle to see how you are able to benefit from bitcoin in meaningful ways.

You have a point but it will be hard to impose it on some persons who have already stamped it in their life that nothing will make them go on to hold up to half a year. These things have to do with the mindset and the idea those who introduce Bitcoin to these sets of persons have told them and they keep working on the idea they got from whoever taught them about Bitcoin investment. You're good with Bitcoin, holding stashing and all that but another person can come in to say your knowledge and ideas doesn't bring any profit so he or she won't want to hear anything you saying.

[Son Of Blockchain (SOB)]

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

Of course, you can do what you like, even though bitcoin tends to be better as a long term play and not to think about price while you are building up your bitcoin stash.

If you are always thinking in the short term and you are not able to think 10 year plus, then you are likely going continue to struggle to see how you are able to benefit from bitcoin in meaningful ways.

You have a point but it will be hard to impose it on some persons who have already stamped it in their life that nothing will make them go on to hold up to half a year. These things have to do with the mindset and the idea those who introduce Bitcoin to these sets of persons have told them and they keep working on the idea they got from whoever taught them about Bitcoin investment. You're good with Bitcoin, holding stashing and all that but another person can come in to say your knowledge and ideas doesn't bring any profit so he or she won't want to hear anything you saying.

Lizzy dear, investing in Bitcoin is a choice, nobody has the right to impose it on anyone however, if you know the right thing, then do it and what's the right way of investing in Bitcoin if not buying and holding for long-term? The fact that some people are bent on doing things their own way even though they're wrong doesn’t mean such wrong practices should be accepted.
 Remember that a good number of people who visit threads like these are newbies and here to learn so it's best that they're being taught the right things concerning Bitcoin investment so they don't get misled and do things that would make them regret. Moreover, is there anyone you know that's held for long-term and didn't find it profitable?

[Proty]

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

Of course, you can do what you like, even though bitcoin tends to be better as a long term play and not to think about price while you are building up your bitcoin stash.

If you are always thinking in the short term and you are not able to think 10 year plus, then you are likely going continue to struggle to see how you are able to benefit from bitcoin in meaningful ways.

You have a point but it will be hard to impose it on some persons who have already stamped it in their life that nothing will make them go on to hold up to half a year. These things have to do with the mindset and the idea those who introduce Bitcoin to these sets of persons have told them and they keep working on the idea they got from whoever taught them about Bitcoin investment. You're good with Bitcoin, holding stashing and all that but another person can come in to say your knowledge and ideas doesn't bring any profit so he or she won't want to hear anything you saying.

Yes it is all about mindset. If for example two person are $100k , One may decide to use this money to start a business while the other may decide to scounder. The first person that uses his $100k to start business is not thinking about now but his mindset is fixed in the future while the other person is just thinking about the present. This is the case with traders and investors, Traders are just thinking about the present and not the future while investor are looking into the future, there mindset is fixed on the future. Therefore they are not moved by the present.

[Joeboy]

Of course, you can do what you like, even though bitcoin tends to be better as a long term play and not to think about price while you are building up your bitcoin stash.

If you are always thinking in the short term and you are not able to think 10 year plus, then you are likely going continue to struggle to see how you are able to benefit from bitcoin in meaningful ways.

You have a point but it will be hard to impose it on some persons who have already stamped it in their life that nothing will make them go on to hold up to half a year. These things have to do with the mindset and the idea those who introduce Bitcoin to these sets of persons have told them and they keep working on the idea they got from whoever taught them about Bitcoin investment. You're good with Bitcoin, holding stashing and all that but another person can come in to say your knowledge and ideas doesn't bring any profit so he or she won't want to hear anything you saying.

Indeed I like to believe that there are some folks who just have the tendency of always focusing on short term profits, and once they have formed that habit it becomes very difficult to change...But then that doesn't mean that the knowledgeable folks shouldnt share their knowledge and advise about long term holding, coz indeed they should. And if they do, I very well know that there are some willing folks that are ready to listen and make the necessary corrections.  While some others though will not listen at first, but eventually will, if they begin experiencing and watching the success of others...Like for example over the years, am sure lots of folks where advised to start accumulating Bitcoin, only a few listened while some others didn't, but then with the current price of Bitcoin, am sure that they are already regretting their stubbornness they exhibited years back..

[Dogedegen]

I do believe that there are indeed investors whose only goal with Bitcoin is to hold it long-term, and they don’t even bother learning about it they just need to be confident they’ll get a strong return on their Bitcoin investment if they hold onto it for several years.

And you’re right that governments are opposed to decentralized systems. That’s why some countries even banned Bitcoin initially, only to reverse those bans later. They couldn’t stop Bitcoin’s price from surging in the crypto market, and many large investors only grew more interested in investing in it.

There are 2 classes of long-term investors. One is the one that you are referring to, they do not know much about Bitcoin and are focused on gains. The other is completely opposite of this one, they know a lot about Bitcoin and they try to learn more continuously. They do not care about the price movement short term, but not even that much long-term even though they are confident that the trend is towards positive price performance. They are essentially living and breathing the Bitcoin life, I love people who are like that even if they are rare.

Many people out there never bother with privacy or decentralized systems when investing because they're focused on how to make a profit during the investment journey. I've asked several people if they know anything about privacy or decentralization and most people who aren't on Bitcointalk never bothered. They only think about buying and selling when the price peaks and never even think about privacy or decentralization. Since the rise in government interest in Bitcoin as a reserve asset, people think it's much better because they think that when governments open up things will become easier.

Yes I have noticed the same, and this is not a good thing at all. While we do say that knowledge is not required to start investing, we can see why knowledge is very important nevertheless. It is this misunderstanding of these concepts and the apathy to them that enables shitcoin peddlers to scam people by claiming that they are decentralized, secure, private, or like Bitcoin in other ways or at times even better than Bitcoin. None of these claims are usually true, but someone who does not know what real decentralization means can be easily fooled by claims.

Bitcoin is far from mature - even though we are in a process in which increasing financialization is taking place, and surely there are legitimate questions regarding the extent to which various kinds of cooptation is currently being attempted to happen on bitcoin.  It's a process, and not all stages are comfortable.

I agree which is why I wrote that it has gained a lot of maturity, but this does not mean that it is fully mature. I would consider this to be true when it reaches a status level and size comparable to gold and onward. I do expect that the next big stage will be central bank reserve adoption, after this ETF phase but I can't say when exactly it will start. Once we spend a few years in that phase, it will start to be comparatively mature but it will still be very young in the grand state of things if compared to silver and gold.

There are confusing times, and perhaps that could be part of the objective to drive the price down so that some more of the status quo powers that be can load their bags... and if discontent and confusion is sewn, there might be some more holders willing to give up their keys and to not wait out aspects of the difficult times.

If we assume that the ETF data is real and that they are not selling a lot of paper Bitcoin, then this data would confirm what you are saying. They are actively sowing fear while massively loading up on Bitcoin during this phase. Of course we have no way to tell how much of the ETF data is objectively real and how much could be paper Bitcoin. Still, the data for now indicates to us what you have written.

I was not blaming Saylor or MSTR for BTC's recent price drop, and surely Saylor has been taking advantage of a glitch in the debt system and also being very open about what he is doing and also promoting bitcoin..  I am not going to applaud everything he has been doing either, even though he has a right to do them, and there are aspects of what he has been doing that does not have good ramifications for self-sovereignty and privacy and from my point of view, sometimes Saylor does not give enough respect (and/or praise) to private usages of bitcoin - which from my point of view are the foundations of where bitcoin gets its value.

I am of the general view that we should never give support for decisions based on who made them or what their history is. We should evaluate each decision being proposed or done by its own merits, regardless of who is doing it. And when evaluating individuals, we should look at the total sum of their decisions. For the sake of Saylor but also for the sake of the impact on Bitcoin, I hope that they are learning from the mistakes that have been made so far on the way here. Overall we can give him a lot of credit, maybe an 8 out of a 10 scale. We will see how he moves forward and whether he will repeat any mistakes or some of the more risky behavior, like the offering where the company has to pay regular dividends. I did not like that one at all.

Sure.  A lot of that part is just the hype of the market, even Saylor is not innocent in regards to some of the hyperbole in regards to his company beating everything.. which was not very true in 2025, so he had to change some of his talking points which were a bit problematic in their implications... even though I agree that he probably did not do anything wrong enough for any legal proceedings against him to prevail in regards to what he was saying.

I think it is fair to make those statements during a time when they are true, and maybe there were periods where that was true in 2024 but not in 2025 anymore. Still we have to consider the implications of our statements, even if the ultimate responsibility falls on the users. If you look at how some average people invest, it is happening with gold and silver too. After many years of dismissing it and ignoring it, many people have come to buy it near the peak prices after reading about it on mass media. Even if people have contributed to this behavior by posting very bullish statements online, ultimately the responsibility falls on the buyer. They need to learn to do their research, they need to learn that the buy opportunity is when things have low prices and to stop buying after things have increased by several factors. Often unfortunately some types of people only learn from direct experience, so they have to make some of these mistakes themselves and hopefully not too costly, to be able to learn these lessons.

we are largely on the same page about information being available, yet their is  a lot of misinformation too.... and even ongoing attempts to control information.. ..and maybe decentralized locations like Nostr can be helpful too.  Sometimes it can be difficult to engage in meaningful critical thinking and some folks will come to believe that they are engaging in critical thinking merely because they are skeptical or black pilled.. and sometimes more is needed to help folks to sort through good information and bad information.. and I am not going to proclaim to know how these matters can be achieved, since there are problems with the control of the internet and even digital identification being pushed... even movies based on fantasies including gender representations in movies... which then gets into bullshit ideas of women beating up men, and even though there is some satisfaction in the underdog winning, some of the movies are a bit outrageous in their depictcions or lack of being based in reality (perhaps attempts to create new ideas about reality).

You are right, I have forgotten to mention something about misinformation. I guess I am a bit more stuck in my head in some of the earlier days of the internet, even if some misinformation was available it only constituted a small part of the internet and could be ignored. These days the internet is a battle ground for propaganda, bots, and AI slop. So even if information is never accessible as before, it comes as a double edged sword and there is a big issue with misinformation as well. Many, sometimes I really think why can't we just have some nice and simple things for a change hahah.

 

[JayJuanGee]

What are you saying? Have you forgotten that as humans we have what we like how we like it to be done and when we want it to be done. People like it fast and Bitcoin could be that source of quick profit and it can not be at the same time too. Some persons don't mind what others say about them especially when you try to explain how investing in Bitcoin works, all they want is getting the bigger part of it, now see the current amount of Bitcoin or how the market is dropping than it's raising and you think many care about it dropping? No, some are after it going up and that's it, I have a friend that always say anything that doesn't bring profit count him out, so everyone have different thinking and knowledge or should I say different understanding about things they do.

Of course, you can do what you like, even though bitcoin tends to be better as a long term play and not to think about price while you are building up your bitcoin stash.

If you are always thinking in the short term and you are not able to think 10 year plus, then you are likely going continue to struggle to see how you are able to benefit from bitcoin in meaningful ways.

You have a point but it will be hard to impose it on some persons who have already stamped it in their life that nothing will make them go on to hold up to half a year.

Of course, some folks are stubborn and have difficult times learning.

Also some folks have difficulties deferring gratification, which surely has not tended to serve them when it comes to bitcoin as an investment.

Just think of your own timeline and how much better off you likely could have had been if you would have had stayed focused and ongoingly bought bitcoin from the time of your forum registration date in November 2022.   Of course, the more that you would have had front-loaded your bitcoin investment, the better off you would have had been, yet you remain stubborn and or unwilling and unable to learn in order to get focused on long term accumulation rather than fucking around trying to trade (and even if you did not sell you have failed/refused to buy since you are too busy waiting for down that might not end up happening).  It is not a good mindset.. and if you did your own numbers with honesty, you would likely see that what you have been doing has not been a great approach to bitcoin, especially in the last 39 months since your forum registration.

And, yeah you can do what you like.

And, yeah, you can continue to repeat the same errors.

That's up to you - including considering the extent to which you might be able to adjust your ways so you get out of a waiting mindset and perhaps to start to buy bitcoin ongoingly, regularly, persistently, consistently and perhaps even aggressively rather than fucking around waiting for dips that might not happen.  There is a bit of a mindset element to the approach, and to me it seems possible to change mindset for folks who are trying to learn about bitcoin and to potentially increase their prioritization of it within their allocations of time, energy and value.

These things have to do with the mindset and the idea those who introduce Bitcoin to these sets of persons have told them and they keep working on the idea they got from whoever taught them about Bitcoin investment.

If we are new to a topic, we might listen to anyone in regards to that topic, yet there tends to be some value in terms of making sure that we make our own assessments of the matter, and surely a guy who is brand new to bitcoin, he may well take a much more conservative (and even whimpy) approach to the amounts that he is putting into bitcoin, yet if he continues to look into bitcoin, I would think that looking into bitcoin should help guys to become less and less whimpy with their investment into bitcoin, and perhaps even transition into becoming aggressive (after they also shore up their cashflow management systems/practices).

I will grant that some guys might be in better places to learn and adapt than others, and there are other guys who might have messed up finances (and psychology) so it might take them longer to get their finances and/or psychology into a better place that they can increase the level of their bitcoin investment aggressiveness.

You're good with Bitcoin, holding stashing and all that but another person can come in to say your knowledge and ideas doesn't bring any profit so he or she won't want to hear anything you saying.

Sure, each of us are in our own place, so we have to work with what we have.  When I came to bitcoin, I already had about 20 years of various kinds of mostly DCA kinds of investing,and surely I was able to bring some of my earlier learnings to bitcoin and also bring some of my resources to bitcoin too since there can be some advantages in having  some capital to bring into the space.

Yet, at the same time, when I started investing (prior to bitcoin) I had to spend a lot of time learning how to manage my budget and to make sure that I was investing from within my budget that came from my cashflows, and in that regard, it seems to me that if bitcoin had been around, then that would have had affected what I was doing, even though surely each of us are a product of our time, and so if a person is brand new to bitcoin and they hardly have any experience, they still might end up being much more advantaged in regards to their age as compared with someone who had started when they were 20 years older... so there surely are advantages in having youth even though sometimes it can take time for young people to build up their income and also to build up their investments.

[edited out]

Lizzy dear, investing in Bitcoin is a choice, nobody has the right to impose it on anyone however, if you know the right thing, then do it and what's the right way of investing in Bitcoin if not buying and holding for long-term? The fact that some people are bent on doing things their own way even though they're wrong doesn’t mean such wrong practices should be accepted.

hahahahaha

That is a good point SOB.  Lizzy continuously seems to be emphasizing dumb shit that "other people" are supposedly doing, which frequently contributes to my presumptions that she (he) is doing similarly dumb shit.

Remember that a good number of people who visit threads like these are newbies and here to learn so it's best that they're being taught the right things concerning Bitcoin investment so they don't get misled and do things that would make them regret. Moreover, is there anyone you know that's held for long-term and didn't find it profitable?

That is another good point SOB.

There are quite a few of us who spend time in the forum trying to emphasize the right things to do, and the better practices rather than emphasizing the things not to do and/or emphasizing so many dumb things that others are doing.

It can be confusing reading forum posts from members who seem to be ongoingly emphasizing what not to do.. and maybe they are not even saying not to do it, even though they are describing what others are doing as if it matters. People do a lot of dumb shit, and it seems to me that trying to remain focused on doing better things and developing good practices remains the better approach - especially something like bitcoin that has tendencies to become confusing if we are not able to remain focused an also to identify various positive bitcoin attributes that help to show the strength of investing in it, even if we might not be sure about our level of investment, we can still start out investing conservatively until we become more comfortable after ongoingly studying bitcoin and also studying our own cashflow systems/practices.

[edited out]

Yes it is all about mindset. If for example two person are $100k , One may decide to use this money to start a business while the other may decide to scounder. The first person that uses his $100k to start business is not thinking about now but his mindset is fixed in the future while the other person is just thinking about the present. This is the case with traders and investors, Traders are just thinking about the present and not the future while investor are looking into the future, there mindset is fixed on the future. Therefore they are not moved by the present.

What does this have to do with bitcoin, Proty?

You could have had mentioned bitcoin, even though you seem to be implying that if you have $100k that it might be better to create a business with it rather than to invest it into bitcoin.  How does bitcoin fit into your idea (hypothetical) of having $100k available?

[edited in bitcoin]

Indeed I like to believe that there are some folks who just have the tendency of always focusing on short term profits, and once they have formed that habit it becomes very difficult to change...But then that doesn't mean that the knowledgeable folks shouldnt share their knowledge and advise about long term holding, coz indeed they should. And if they do, I very well know that there are some willing folks that are ready to listen and make the necessary corrections.  While some others though will not listen at first, but eventually will, if they begin experiencing and watching the success of others...Like for example over the years, am sure lots of folks where advised to start accumulating Bitcoin, only a few listened while some others didn't, but then with the current price of Bitcoin, am sure that they are already regretting their stubbornness they exhibited years back..

Investing in bitcoin (and getting started investing in bitcoin) does not have to be an all or nothing, which seems to be part of the justification for many guys suggesting to start out the bitcoin investment with some kind of a DCA approach that allows for some getting used to investing into bitcoin and tailorizing the amount put into bitcoin in accordance with various personal factors, including but not limited to view of bitcoin as compared with other possible places to put time, energy and value.

[Son Of Blockchain (SOB)]

hahahahaha

That is a good point SOB.  Lizzy continuously seems to be emphasizing dumb shit that "other people" are supposedly doing, which frequently contributes to my presumptions that she (he) is doing similarly dumb shit.

Remember that a good number of people who visit threads like these are newbies and here to learn so it's best that they're being taught the right things concerning Bitcoin investment so they don't get misled and do things that would make them regret. Moreover, is there anyone you know that's held for long-term and didn't find it profitable?

That is another good point SOB.

There are quite a few of us who spend time in the forum trying to emphasize the right things to do, and the better practices rather than emphasizing the things not to do and/or emphasizing so many dumb things that others are doing.

It can be confusing reading forum posts from members who seem to be ongoingly emphasizing what not to do.. and maybe they are not even saying not to do it, even though they are describing what others are doing as if it matters. People do a lot of dumb shit, and it seems to me that trying to remain focused on doing better things and developing good practices remains the better approach - especially something like bitcoin that has tendencies to become confusing if we are not able to remain focused an also to identify various positive bitcoin attributes that help to show the strength of investing in it, even if we might not be sure about our level of investment, we can still start out investing conservatively until we become more comfortable after ongoingly studying bitcoin and also studying our own cashflow systems/practices.

Anyone can decide to use whatever practice they feel is suitable, it's their choice moreover they'll be the ones to regret from practicing shitty methods of accumulating Bitcoin in the future, however it's unfair to discourage people from learning the right way of investing in Bitcoin just because someone thinks everyone has a choice.
 Most of these people are traders or people who thinks that taking profits on a short-term period is a better idea, but then it goes against what Bitcoin investment is all about, I've said it before that big players like Blackrock, Strategy and the rest that keeps buying to hold for long-term are not foolish, they understand what investment is all about and play by the rules to get better reward and those are the people newbies should imitate and not traders that would lead them to do things they'll regret later.

[JayJuanGee]

I do believe that there are indeed investors whose only goal with Bitcoin is to hold it long-term, and they don’t even bother learning about it they just need to be confident they’ll get a strong return on their Bitcoin investment if they hold onto it for several years.

And you’re right that governments are opposed to decentralized systems. That’s why some countries even banned Bitcoin initially, only to reverse those bans later. They couldn’t stop Bitcoin’s price from surging in the crypto market, and many large investors only grew more interested in investing in it.

There are 2 classes of long-term investors. One is the one that you are referring to, they do not know much about Bitcoin and are focused on gains. The other is completely opposite of this one, they know a lot about Bitcoin and they try to learn more continuously. They do not care about the price movement short term, but not even that much long-term even though they are confident that the trend is towards positive price performance. They are essentially living and breathing the Bitcoin life, I love people who are like that even if they are rare.

I am not sure why people would need to be in one camp or another, since guys can have gradients of each of the characteristics that you seem to be describing... .. so to be into bitcoin for the self sovereignty and also for the number go up.

In other words, why not both?

Bitcoin specifically has built in incentives and structures that contribute towards motivating investing time, energy and value into bitcoin, whether we are talking about node running, mining, developing, holding bitcoin directly and/or holding bitcoin through paper products (in which the actual bitcoin might not be there).

Many people out there never bother with privacy or decentralized systems when investing because they're focused on how to make a profit during the investment journey. I've asked several people if they know anything about privacy or decentralization and most people who aren't on Bitcointalk never bothered. They only think about buying and selling when the price peaks and never even think about privacy or decentralization. Since the rise in government interest in Bitcoin as a reserve asset, people think it's much better because they think that when governments open up things will become easier.

Yes I have noticed the same, and this is not a good thing at all. While we do say that knowledge is not required to start investing, we can see why knowledge is very important nevertheless. It is this misunderstanding of these concepts and the apathy to them that enables shitcoin peddlers to scam people by claiming that they are decentralized, secure, private, or like Bitcoin in other ways or at times even better than Bitcoin. None of these claims are usually true, but someone who does not know what real decentralization means can be easily fooled by claims.

Yep.. buyer beware and there seem to be even quite smart people who get sucked into the various scam products, and like you suggested some of them are more scammy than others... yet several of them can be very convincing and end up costing normies a lot of value (including wasting their time and energy too)

Bitcoin is far from mature - even though we are in a process in which increasing financialization is taking place, and surely there are legitimate questions regarding the extent to which various kinds of cooptation is currently being attempted to happen on bitcoin.  It's a process, and not all stages are comfortable.

I agree which is why I wrote that it has gained a lot of maturity, but this does not mean that it is fully mature. I would consider this to be true when it reaches a status level and size comparable to gold and onward. I do expect that the next big stage will be central bank reserve adoption, after this ETF phase but I can't say when exactly it will start. Once we spend a few years in that phase, it will start to be comparatively mature but it will still be very young in the grand state of things if compared to silver and gold.

Of course we have development going on in terms of individual usage and also various paper products and financialization, and of course, the paperization will likely continue to play out as a kind of attack vector since the powers that be would like to be able to transact on bitcoin, and to ptu obstacles in the ways that individuals can transact on bitcoin without being monitored and/or otherwise controlled.

It is not all lovey dovey since the powers that be want to be able to harness bitcoin, even while they want to not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.  They would like to have their cake and eat it too.. even though bitcoin has probably advanced farther than they would have had wanted it to advance since it seems that only recently has the attacks transition from direct attacks to cooptation, even though surely ongoing evidence of direct attacks (such as arresting and jailing samurai developers) exists side by side.

There are confusing times, and perhaps that could be part of the objective to drive the price down so that some more of the status quo powers that be can load their bags... and if discontent and confusion is sewn, there might be some more holders willing to give up their keys and to not wait out aspects of the difficult times.

If we assume that the ETF data is real and that they are not selling a lot of paper Bitcoin,

These guys are professional manipulators, so you can believe them if you like.

then this data would confirm what you are saying. They are actively sowing fear while massively loading up on Bitcoin during this phase. Of course we have no way to tell how much of the ETF data is objectively real and how much could be paper Bitcoin. Still, the data for now indicates to us what you have written.

For sure there are various control mechanisms, and if you recall that in mid-to-late 2023, Blackrock et al did not apply for their spot ETF until they were able to pretty much get back doors into Binance.

I was not blaming Saylor or MSTR for BTC's recent price drop, and surely Saylor has been taking advantage of a glitch in the debt system and also being very open about what he is doing and also promoting bitcoin..  I am not going to applaud everything he has been doing either, even though he has a right to do them, and there are aspects of what he has been doing that does not have good ramifications for self-sovereignty and privacy and from my point of view, sometimes Saylor does not give enough respect (and/or praise) to private usages of bitcoin - which from my point of view are the foundations of where bitcoin gets its value.

I am of the general view that we should never give support for decisions based on who made them or what their history is. We should evaluate each decision being proposed or done by its own merits, regardless of who is doing it.

There are surely levels of trust, and people could be doing good and bad things at the same time.

And when evaluating individuals, we should look at the total sum of their decisions. For the sake of Saylor but also for the sake of the impact on Bitcoin, I hope that they are learning from the mistakes that have been made so far on the way here. Overall we can give him a lot of credit, maybe an 8 out of a 10 scale. We will see how he moves forward and whether he will repeat any mistakes or some of the more risky behavior, like the offering where the company has to pay regular dividends. I did not like that one at all.

We have to take Saylor with a grain of salt.. Sure he might be a good guy and all, yet some aspect of what he is doing is getting too BIG for his own britches.  

Hopefully, he does not end up fucking up in the custody arrangements and/or any backroom dealings that might be happening in and around him.

He is likely mostly an outsider, and there probably are some status quo financial actors (JP Morgan, Jaime Diamond, et al) who would like Saylor to get wrecked in one way or another, even though we don't necessarily know various aspects of the insiderness/outsiderness and the various ways that pool might be clean or dirty... Saylor does travel with a lot of body guards, even though the last 5.5-ish years, he has been purposefully putting himself in the spotlight, a lot.  

Sure.  A lot of that part is just the hype of the market, even Saylor is not innocent in regards to some of the hyperbole in regards to his company beating everything.. which was not very true in 2025, so he had to change some of his talking points which were a bit problematic in their implications... even though I agree that he probably did not do anything wrong enough for any legal proceedings against him to prevail in regards to what he was saying.

I think it is fair to make those statements during a time when they are true, and maybe there were periods where that was true in 2024 but not in 2025 anymore.

I am not claiming to know anything, and these matters are ongoingly moving with a lot of parts that I have few clues.

Still we have to consider the implications of our statements, even if the ultimate responsibility falls on the users. If you look at how some average people invest, it is happening with gold and silver too.

Sure there are various battles going on simultaneously, and there can be some balls in the air that the jugglers are having difficulty in controlling - so I would not proclaimed that there are abilities to control demolition in ways that various powers that be would like, so there can be emerging powers that be and even casualties in the process in which some parts are being manipulated yet sometimes falling out of control too.

After many years of dismissing it and ignoring it, many people have come to buy it near the peak prices after reading about it on mass media. Even if people have contributed to this behavior by posting very bullish statements online, ultimately the responsibility falls on the buyer. They need to learn to do their research, they need to learn that the buy opportunity is when things have low prices and to stop buying after things have increased by several factors.

Even the Saylor products are complicated, since one thing is attempting to understand the underlying, but then trying to understand the underlying as compared with company stocks or various new financial products that they introduced ,and some of the products that they introduced were innovative in themselves.  I have been participating in the MSTR thread since 2020, and still sometimes the new products come out and guys get so excited about them and even asking me why I was participating in the thread yet at the same time not buying the various MSTR products... so yeah, there were even guys kicking themselves for not buying various MSTR products in early 2025, yet they are relieved now, and then they are kicking themselves for not buying Gold and Silver prior to 2025. which yeah, these various ways of investing and/or allocating ourselves is all over the place.  I am not going to claim to understand how they all relate to each other even though sometimes they might have positive and/or negative flows in and out of bitcoin, and even if many of us don't really know how so much of these matters relate to each other, we still might adjust our bitcoin position and/or our view and practices related to our bitcoin investment, our cashflow management practices and/or our decisions to get in or out of other assets.. .whether slowly over time or in a trading kind of way.. and I don't tend to like to trade or gamble, even though I have liked bitcoin and I continue to like bitcoin... even while know that there can be extended times that even bitcoin's price performance is confusing when looked at on its own or looked at in terms of various derrivative product and/or macro happenings (related products such as silver and gold).

Often unfortunately some types of people only learn from direct experience, so they have to make some of these mistakes themselves and hopefully not too costly, to be able to learn these lessons.

Sure.  Position size can sometimes help to modify getting into (or experimenting) with various products that might not be bitcoin, yet related to bitcoin and then questions about the extent to which they might be worth getting into instead of just mostly sticking with king daddy.  I cannot necessarily blame people for being too smart for their own good, and sure some of them might have done quite well with those products to the extent that they might have gotten in and out while they were helping Saylor/MSTR build their bitcoin stash with other people's money including folks who chose to support various MSTR products and perhaps even profiting by their using various MSTR products relative to other place that they might put their value.

we are largely on the same page about information being available, yet their is  a lot of misinformation too.... and even ongoing attempts to control information.. ..and maybe decentralized locations like Nostr can be helpful too.  Sometimes it can be difficult to engage in meaningful critical thinking and some folks will come to believe that they are engaging in critical thinking merely because they are skeptical or black pilled.. and sometimes more is needed to help folks to sort through good information and bad information.. and I am not going to proclaim to know how these matters can be achieved, since there are problems with the control of the internet and even digital identification being pushed... even movies based on fantasies including gender representations in movies... which then gets into bullshit ideas of women beating up men, and even though there is some satisfaction in the underdog winning, some of the movies are a bit outrageous in their depictcions or lack of being based in reality (perhaps attempts to create new ideas about reality).

You are right, I have forgotten to mention something about misinformation. I guess I am a bit more stuck in my head in some of the earlier days of the internet, even if some misinformation was available it only constituted a small part of the internet and could be ignored. These days the internet is a battle ground for propaganda, bots, and AI slop. So even if information is never accessible as before, it comes as a double edged sword and there is a big issue with misinformation as well. Many, sometimes I really think why can't we just have some nice and simple things for a change hahah.

Crazy times in regards to people getting arrested in England for their internet activities (hate speech) and also attempts from various European Union to try to enforce their anti-speech laws on Americans who are not in the European Union (through extra-territoriality principles).. which the USA is also a very guilty party when it comes to enforcing USA laws on people outside of the USA.. CZ for example.

[edited out]

Anyone can decide to use whatever practice they feel is suitable, it's their choice moreover they'll be the ones to regret from practicing shitty methods of accumulating Bitcoin in the future, however it's unfair to discourage people from learning the right way of investing in Bitcoin just because someone thinks everyone has a choice.

Yep.. Members are sometimes going to have differing opinions, so battles on the topic might sometimes become personal.

Most of these people are traders or people who thinks that taking profits on a short-term period is a better idea, but then it goes against what Bitcoin investment is all about, I've said it before that big players like Blackrock, Strategy and the rest that keeps buying to hold for long-term are not foolish, they understand what investment is all about and play by the rules to get better reward and those are the people newbies should imitate and not traders that would lead them to do things they'll regret later.

Yeah, but the overall argument is not so simple since some of those players that you mentioned are pushing paper products, and not very friendly to self-custody, self-sovereignty and privacy, even though bitcoin is made with those attributes, so there are values in transacting with bitcoin even though some of the BIGGER players don't really like the idea of the masses being able to transact and/or to be empowered in various ways by bitcoin.  Some of their reps might even say things that make it seem that they are on your side when they are in the midst of attempting cooptation while not wanting to kill the golden goose.

And, don't get me wrong since I recognize and appreciate that aspects of financialization and government involvement in bitcoin is part of bitcoin's growth process, so we can end up having battles being fought on various ends at the same time, yet on individual levels we are also figuring out our own ways of allocating, how to hold our coins and how to use them without getting locked out or blocked or thrown in jail if we happen to be a privacy developer/advocate (like the samurai developers who are currently in jail for writing and promoting decentralized privacy software).

[MarjorieZimmermanGinger]

Most of these people are traders or people who thinks that taking profits on a short-term period is a better idea, but then it goes against what Bitcoin investment is all about, I've said it before that big players like Blackrock, Strategy and the rest that keeps buying to hold for long-term are not foolish, they understand what investment is all about and play by the rules to get better reward and those are the people newbies should imitate and not traders that would lead them to do things they'll regret later.

Many people make mistakes in the beginning, but they slowly begin to evaluate their mistakes and ultimately improve in the process. If people ultimately decide to pursue short-term investing, there may be nothing wrong with that, but in essence these people won't see the expected asset growth because their focus is solely on profit quality not growth. Many large companies involved in investment only think about how to accumulate and generally they hold these assets for the long term to get maximum asset growth and I agree that this concept is much better applied than taking a short-term approach in investment by expecting maximum profits and small capital because this is irrelevant.

[FortuneFollower]

Lizzy dear, investing in Bitcoin is a choice, nobody has the right to impose it on anyone however, if you know the right thing, then do it and what's the right way of investing in Bitcoin if not buying and holding for long-term? The fact that some people are bent on doing things their own way even though they're wrong doesn’t mean such wrong practices should be accepted.
 Remember that a good number of people who visit threads like these are newbies and here to learn so it's best that they're being taught the right things concerning Bitcoin investment so they don't get misled and do things that would make them regret. Moreover, is there anyone you know that's held for long-term and didn't find it profitable?

We do what we think is best for us, our coins, or both.

And making something differently and adjusting the strategy is completely okay.. especially when you see potential in a different road to take regarding investment.

[xiamin]

Lizzy dear, investing in Bitcoin is a choice, nobody has the right to impose it on anyone however, if you know the right thing, then do it and what's the right way of investing in Bitcoin if not buying and holding for long-term? The fact that some people are bent on doing things their own way even though they're wrong doesn’t mean such wrong practices should be accepted.
 Remember that a good number of people who visit threads like these are newbies and here to learn so it's best that they're being taught the right things concerning Bitcoin investment so they don't get misled and do things that would make them regret. Moreover, is there anyone you know that's held for long-term and didn't find it profitable?

We do what we think is best for us, our coins, or both.

And making something differently and adjusting the strategy is completely okay.. especially when you see potential in a different road to take regarding investment.

There will be differences in investment. You will adjust your investment to your income and expenses but you should not take any action that will soon lead to failure. For example, in the case of Bitcoin investment. You are new but there is a lot to learn about Bitcoin. You should start small. This is a balance. It will not be right to take large investment risks with little knowledge.

Your experience will lead you to the right decision, this is to be consistent with experience.

[PhilosopherKing]

We do what we think is best for us, our coins, or both.

And making something differently and adjusting the strategy is completely okay.. especially when you see potential in a different road to take regarding investment.

Dude invest in what can works for you over time, at times it's just good for people to stay away from doing things that they feel is good for them. I say this because lot of people have formed the habit of messing around with shitcoin just because they think shitcoin is their best strategy, but isn't that self deception?

Speaking of seeing potential in a different road, where you speaking of shitcoin? Bitcoin is where the potential is, it is the best you can find currently, so invest in Bitcoin with DCa consistently.

[Hypnotizer]

There will be differences in investment. You will adjust your investment to your income and expenses but you should not take any action that will soon lead to failure. For example, in the case of Bitcoin investment. You are new but there is a lot to learn about Bitcoin. You should start small. This is a balance. It will not be right to take large investment risks with little knowledge.

You’re on track about this, even though everyone has the right to choose what he thinks is best for him regarding investment, it’s really important to understand and know the right thing before making any decisions by proper research and also the majority of experienced people’s opinions should also be considered and weighed when making any decision regarding investment even though you wouldn’t totally depend on their opinions but you should use your common sense to know what is really right to do.

I always emphasize on knowledge before investing..basically even if you don’t need to know much technical knowledge of Bitcoin, you should know the basics and understand it. The investment journey itself is another lesson, so you should grow slowly and learn new thing about the investment on the way, and for sure if you take large investment with little knowledge..in most scenarios it doesn’t always end right, either you get scammed because you lack proper security knowledge or you have losses because you lack proper risk management.