Duel.com -- The first casino with 0% house edge games

[Free Market Capitalist]

You are frequently losing yourself in semantics, but it is ok. At least there is some hope that you do understand the concept of sample size in statistics, not mathematics:

No, I'm not losing myself in anything. The concepts of HE and RTP are very clear, and this forum is full of people who have some idea of the concepts but don't understand them. Several of them have been quoted in this thread.

...more accurately described as short-term results

whereas your "short-term" here undoubtedly refers to a low number of events (aka small sample size).

It doesn't matter the sample size.

lol

Great way to talk nonsense. Shall I explain it to you like you're a primary school kid? I'll repeat it again: RTP and HE are two concepts that basically express the same thing in different ways, and talking about short-term RTP is nonsense because RTP refers to large statistical samples something that neither you nor khaled0111 nor leea-1334 are going to change, no matter how much you want to twist and turn the issue.

[nemesis_incarnate]

..

A multiple account violation can’t be justify because you can’t provide any evidence that you don’t own those account connected to you while casino have.

I doubt they will just invented those connection out of nowhere just to scam 883$ while they are spending more than that with their signature campaign here.

Challenge them on Askgamblers platform which they can provide their evidence.

Or on Casino Guru, mediators there are good too.

[mv1986]

Great way to talk nonsense. Shall I explain it to you like you're a primary school kid? I'll repeat it again: RTP and HE are two concepts that basically express the same thing in different ways, and talking about short-term RTP is nonsense because RTP refers to large statistical samples something that neither you nor khaled0111 nor leea-1334 are going to change, no matter how much you want to twist and turn the issue.

You don't get the point.

When @khaled0111 writes his post, I can go about it in two ways. Either I hammer him for not using the correct terminology, or I can try to understand what he is trying to convey. He may use wrong terminology, but I don't feel particularly incentivized to lecture him about something that I could interpret as being false (like you) or see the point he is making.

There might be a difference between the actual RTP and the theoretical RTP. This difference depends on the gambler’s luck and mainly on how many bets he has placed. You are right, the more bets he places, the more the actual RTP leans toward the theoretical RTP.

False as well. Unless you want to play on words here. If the RTP is 98%, it doesn't matter if you get 300% or -50% in the short term. RTP is a mathematical concept, and what you call short-term RTP results have nothing to do with the mathematical concept.

It is not false what he is saying. Whether he should be using "actual" vs. "theoretical" or whatever, sample size is all that matters in the context that @khaled0111 is talking about

mainly on how many bets he has placed

and you won't change that.

[leea-1334]

0% house edge is not 100% actual RTP

I believe that 0% = 100% RTP in large enough sample sizes.

He is wrong. RTP and HE are two sides of the same coin. It doesn't matter the sample size.

There is such a thing as theoretical RTP and actual RTP,,, you will see this in most casino slots and live games which publish the RTP (a fixed number) and the actual RTP (which they will show for 24 hours, 7 days, and 30 days).

HE is directly linked to the theoretical RTP, but I know I am not wrong here. I always use House Edge to not avoid confusion. The term RTP itself is a theoretical value.

We can argue all we want but the facts are casinos display actual RTP, as well as the theoretical RTP. We can acknowledge these and help people understand better what is HE and RTP.

[LimPinks]

Duel is growing fast if they are already near Roobet in terms of traffic. I like the straightforward approach without fancy graphics

[mv1986]

~

There is such a thing as theoretical RTP and actual RTP,,, you will see this in most casino slots and live games which publish the RTP (a fixed number) and the actual RTP (which they will show for 24 hours, 7 days, and 30 days).

HE is directly linked to the theoretical RTP, but I know I am not wrong here. I always use House Edge to not avoid confusion. The term RTP itself is a theoretical value.

We can argue all we want but the facts are casinos display actual RTP, as well as the theoretical RTP. We can acknowledge these and help people understand better what is HE and RTP.

Well, when @Free Market Capitalist refers to the RTP term and says sample size doesn't matter, I guess he is talking about total potential profit/loss (from casino or player perspective), which, despite n --> infinity, actually still follows a random walk. True is that the average profit per round converges to the RTP. Total profit/loss in a 100% RTP setup still has its own randomness although intuitively you might think it has to be a zero sum game in the long run, but in fact it isn't. However, random walk swings in true 100% RTP setups could make the casino money, but it could as well drain the casino to bankruptcy. If this is what @Free Market Capitalist refers to, then it's correct.

I have done tons of random walk simulations in academic papers about VaR calculations for precious metal and raw material positions held by banks, and then related that to their overall risk profile. It's crazy how random walks can play out. The law of big numbers is not that trivial for someone who is not familiar with the matter, because at first it is not as intuitive as one might think.


@leea-1334 let's assume that the casino really displays what is going on, then it is correct that they can only present numbers for limited time intervals, but here is the thing:

If the "theoretical RTP" (as you call it) is 100% and the casino then provides the "actual RTP" for various time intervals, the actual RTP should fluctuate around 100%. Fluctuate more in smaller time intervals, fluctuate less in larger time intervals. But what is more important for the players, is that the RTP should at least every now and then exceed 100%. If it is truly a symmetrical game and it is claimed to come with 100% RTP, there should be time intervals when the casino says "this week the actual RTP was 105%".

Fact of the matter is that no casino would offer 100% RTP across the board with fully asymmetric games because profit/loss would be random, and businesses rather don't bet on randomness while seeking profitability.

[leea-1334]

@leea-1334 let's assume that the casino really displays what is going on, then it is correct that they can only present numbers for limited time intervals, but here is the thing:

If the "theoretical RTP" (as you call it) is 100% and the casino then provides the "actual RTP" for various time intervals, the actual RTP should fluctuate around 100%. Fluctuate more in smaller time intervals, fluctuate less in larger time intervals. But what is more important for the players, is that the RTP should at least every now and then exceed 100%. If it is truly a symmetrical game and it is claimed to come with 100% RTP, there should be time intervals when the casino says "this week the actual RTP was 105%".

Fact of the matter is that no casino would offer 100% RTP across the board with fully asymmetric games because profit/loss would be random, and businesses rather don't bet on randomness while seeking profitability.

The fluctuation depends on sample size rather than timeframe,,, and it is impossible to see that in what casinos display, weekends I expect have more plays, the idea of them showing it is psychology, to show players like OH wow this slot is hot right now, or OH wow this slot has only paid 89% RTP so the JP should be giving up soon!

Roulette is a great example of exceeding, HE on Europe roulette is 2.7% which translates to theoretical RTP of 97.3,,, I can often see 98% or more on some tables if you move thru 20 tables

I think anyway this is why I always use House Edge games and not slots, HE is baked into every dice roll, every roulette roll but is programmed into slots in a very different way,,, I respect everybody's opinion mv1986 or Free Market Capitalist or memehunter etc but I think us arguing over terminology is no longer beneficial to the users of Duel  Or we can open a thread and do it there

[Free Market Capitalist]

You don't get the point.

I do get the point.

When @khaled0111 writes his post, I can go about it in two ways. Either I hammer him for not using the correct terminology, or I can try to understand what he is trying to convey. He may use wrong terminology, but I don't feel particularly incentivized to lecture him about something that I could interpret as being false (like you) or see the point he is making.

This is not a matter of interpretation:

0% house edge is not 100% actual RTP

That is false. As false as 2+2=5. You "interpretation" doesn't change that.

It is not false what he is saying. Whether he should be using "actual" vs. "theoretical" or whatever...

It is false. The fact that you and they don't understand the concepts and choose to relativize them doesn't change the facts. If a game has an RTP of 98% (or an HE of 2%, which is the same thing) and you win 10X on the first spin, if you say you've obtained a 1,000% "short-term RTP", you're talking nonsense.

[memehunter]

I hammer him for not using the correct terminology,

LOL, that would be fun and somehow right hahaha. I love doing that 

I respect everybody's opinion mv1986 or Free Market Capitalist or memehunter

I am not sure about other two random guys but totally applicable to me 

but I think us arguing over terminology is no longer beneficial to the users of Duel

I dont care about any particular casino/players, discourse is more important. BTW, is this a silent admission of you using wrong terms/concepts 

[Shishir99]

It is false. The fact that you and they don't understand the concepts and choose to relativize them doesn't change the facts. If a game has an RTP of 98% (or an HE of 2%, which is the same thing) and you win 10X on the first spin, if you say you've obtained a 1,000% "short-term RTP", you're talking nonsense.

People often judge the casino game based on their latest gambling session. Let's say they have placed a thousand bets on a 50% win chance, and they got 550 losses and 450 wins, some people judge the casino, saying the RTP is not real. There is no way the difference could be that large on a 50% win chance. The reality is, you can even get more loose bets in this win chance. The casino usually never responds to these types of accusations. Probably, they feel like it is impossible to convince these types of people. So, let people think whatever they think unless they come up with some kind of logical explanation.

[fikrett]

It is false. The fact that you and they don't understand the concepts and choose to relativize them doesn't change the facts. If a game has an RTP of 98% (or an HE of 2%, which is the same thing) and you win 10X on the first spin, if you say you've obtained a 1,000% "short-term RTP", you're talking nonsense.

People often judge the casino game based on their latest gambling session. Let's say they have placed a thousand bets on a 50% win chance, and they got 550 losses and 450 wins, some people judge the casino, saying the RTP is not real. There is no way the difference could be that large on a 50% win chance. The reality is, you can even get more loose bets in this win chance. The casino usually never responds to these types of accusations. Probably, they feel like it is impossible to convince these types of people. So, let people think whatever they think unless they come up with some kind of logical explanation.

They would respond only if such matter would be brought to mediators and the silence would be treated as something that would lower their score down

[leea-1334]

I dont care about any particular casino/players, discourse is more important. BTW, is this a silent admission of you using wrong terms/concepts 

It is not about caring,,, maybe respecting threads,,, there is no silent admission, I still think I used the terms and concepts that I have always seen, we are all 4 or 5 or how many different people arguing in a thread that people who might be interested in the arguments are not seeing.

Maybe we are just keyboard warriors, but I think what I said is move the discussion to Gambling Discussion on a proper thread.

Peace to you and everyone bro, we are all obviously stuck in our beliefs and discourse is important but I think we can discuss in the right room

[Free Market Capitalist]

People often judge the casino game based on their latest gambling session. Let's say they have placed a thousand bets on a 50% win chance, and they got 550 losses and 450 wins, some people judge the casino, saying the RTP is not real. There is no way the difference could be that large on a 50% win chance. The reality is, you can even get more loose bets in this win chance.

Not really. Yes, it could happen, but on 1,000 spins that result, 55-45, is 0,017% likely (AI calculated). However, I agree with the idea you express.

[Shishir99]

Not really. Yes, it could happen, but on 1,000 spins that result, 55-45, is 0,017% likely (AI calculated). However, I agree with the idea you express.

Yeah, it is still possible. With a 50% win chance, the expected number of lost bets is 500. However, it can be between 470-530. However, it is very much possible to get 450-550 as well, even though the chance is very low. My point is, it's not impossible, actually. Sometimes we feel like we are getting scammed after seeing many losing streaks on a 50% win chance, and that is when people start complaining here and there.

I also asked AI what the longest losing streak a player can expect with a 50% win chance, and it said -

The longest losing streak you’d expect in 1,000 bets is about 10 losses in a row.
Extreme cases (like 15–20 losses in a row) are possible but very rare.

• You’ll see many small losing streaks (1–3 losses).
• Occasionally, medium streaks (5–7 losses).
• The longest streak in 1,000 bets will almost always be around 10 losses in a row.

Imagine you start with a 0.1 BTC bankroll, your base bet is 10 satoshi, you double your bet on a loss, and you have 20 consecutive losses in a row with a 50% win chance. You will end up with -0.0048574 BTC if a negative bet is possible. I have heard people say they had 27 consecutive losses with a 2x multiplier. It feels like a scam, but it is possible.

[Forsyth Jones]

I was curious to visit this ANN and the duel.com website.

Does Duel.com offer any kind of weekly or monthly promotion, a type of betting tournament or anything like that?

It is false. The fact that you and they don't understand the concepts and choose to relativize them doesn't change the facts. If a game has an RTP of 98% (or an HE of 2%, which is the same thing) and you win 10X on the first spin, if you say you've obtained a 1,000% "short-term RTP", you're talking nonsense.

People often judge the casino game based on their latest gambling session. Let's say they have placed a thousand bets on a 50% win chance, and they got 550 losses and 450 wins, some people judge the casino, saying the RTP is not real. There is no way the difference could be that large on a 50% win chance. The reality is, you can even get more loose bets in this win chance. The casino usually never responds to these types of accusations. Probably, they feel like it is impossible to convince these types of people. So, let people think whatever they think unless they come up with some kind of logical explanation.

The problem starts when the rounds or spins become unfavorable to your bet. Then you start betting double the amount of your initial bet to recover the lost amount and reset the bet on wins, in the case of a 50% or 55% probability of winning in some games with a high RTP.

Generally, when I bet a lot on games like dice, I always started well, but then, after a few negative bets, I see that I finished the game with a much lower value than I started with. 

[Dollartree]

I was curious to visit this ANN and the duel.com website.

Does Duel.com offer any kind of weekly or monthly promotion, a type of betting tournament or anything like that?

Duel does away with the weekly/monthly bonus structure.  It's an inherently predatory system that relies on a high house edge. Duel offers the lowest house edge, the best rakeback, a sportsbook with the most competitive odds, along with the most generous leaderboards​. All the value is already baked into Duel, there's no need to drip-feed any hidden bonuses

It takes a bit getting used to, but when you see how much better the payouts are for the originals and how much instant rakeback you get, it's hard to go back to the "bonuses".

If you play slots, my tip would be to let your rakeback build up and not claim $0.20-$0.30 here and there.  At the end of your session claim it and you'll see that just one day's worth of rakeback is more than your "Weekly" bonus somewhere else.

[Bitcoin_Arena]

I was curious to visit this ANN and the duel.com website.

Does Duel.com offer any kind of weekly or monthly promotion, a type of betting tournament or anything like that?

They actually do have the daily and monthly races, as seen on the forum signatures. When you visit the casino side of the platform, you will be able to see leaderboards that are automatically updated or update your position based on the points you gather.

Code:

https://duel.com/casino#leaderboard

[Shishir99]

The problem starts when the rounds or spins become unfavorable to your bet. Then you start betting double the amount of your initial bet to recover the lost amount and reset the bet on wins, in the case of a 50% or 55% probability of winning in some games with a high RTP.

Generally, when I bet a lot on games like dice, I always started well, but then, after a few negative bets, I see that I finished the game with a much lower value than I started with. 

It happens to the gambler regularly, and the regular gambler accepts the result because they know it's normal and can happen. I don't remember seeing people share about their long winning streaks. With a 2x multiplier, we sometimes get more than 10 wins in a row, and it doesn't seem significant because we don't increase the bet amount on wins. However, it seems significant on loss bets because we increase the bet amount on loss, which is why we end up draining our entire bankroll after a session. Also, not increasing the amount on lose is not a a solution, because you are betting against the house edge and you will end up in loss if you do not recover your previous loss on your next bet.

[Potato Chips]

I've never seen this game before on Duel.com's originals, looks like this was a recent addition.



I am guessing they are working on other games as well. I would suggest Limbo as it is also a popular original game in casinos, and degens like the crazy multipliers lol.

They actually do have the daily and monthly races, as seen on the forum signatures. When you visit the casino side of the platform, you will be able to see leaderboards that are automatically updated or update your position based on the points you gather.

Code:

https://duel.com/casino#leaderboard

I wonder if they have plans for a bitcointalk exclusive race/s as well. Maybe a multiplier race.  

[Wind_FURY]

I've never seen this game before on Duel.com's originals, looks like this was a recent addition.



I am guessing they are working on other games as well. I would suggest Limbo as it is also a popular original game in casinos, and degens like the crazy multipliers lol.

They actually do have the daily and monthly races, as seen on the forum signatures. When you visit the casino side of the platform, you will be able to see leaderboards that are automatically updated or update your position based on the points you gather.

Code:

https://duel.com/casino#leaderboard

I wonder if they have plans for a bitcointalk exclusive race/s as well. Maybe a multiplier race.  

They probably could also copy YEET's version of Crash and make it into a sort of cryptocurrency racing game. It will probably better played in Monarch because they don't have a house edge, IF that's actually true. I haven't played in the casino, but if it's verified, then that's GOOD.

Although, how does the casino make enough profit if every bet made under $50,000 has no house edge?