DOES WHALES MANIPULATION CONTRADICT BITCOIN DECENTRALIZATION?

[Cryptomultiplier]

We discussed this a while back in a thread I created here:

Tl;dr, the market is certainly influenced by Whales, and it's certainly likely that at least some of them are manipulating the market for profit (what would be illegal with stocks is perfectly legal with BTC).

Do you have hard irrifutable data to back this up? What is the proof that one or more whales are influencing the market of Bitcoin which is worth billions of USD?

There's certainly lots of evidence. (Go read our original thread).

Circumstantially, it would be utterly stupid for Bitcoin whale not to manipulate the market. As I said, with stocks and other investments this would all be illegal, but with crypto it's perfectly legal, so why not do it? It's basically free money for these guys.

I just see whales as opportunist who manipulate the market through volatility. When they move their large holdings, they create a panic scare among retail holders who most times rush to sell off their asset to be in the safe space, but this makes those whales accumulate more of the wealth of Bitcoin by buying off what's being sold.
The truth however remains that Bitcoin's network technically remains untouched and decentralized as it is originally.

[ivrynx113]

let us go back in the inception of BTC, during the first years, it is decentralized, and the value it less than 1 usd, due to supple and demand, the value rose, people hodl, and due to this, value has risen, up to the point people see it as a commodity, and bought more than enough for themselves, thus increasing value again, because of this a majority stake being handle by few individuals can manipulate the market anytime they want, hold, for increase value, release for profit, then buy the BTC again, the scenario goes in a cycle, BTC is no longer seen as the decentralized currency we used to have, rather it became a tool for a small amount of individuals to keep the hype up, and cash out anytime they want, having 2 or 3 btc as of now doesn't really make an impact anymore.

[Lembo69]

I just see whales as opportunist who manipulate the market through volatility. When they move their large holdings, they create a panic scare among retail holders who most times rush to sell off their asset to be in the safe space, but this makes those whales accumulate more of the wealth of Bitcoin by buying off what's being sold.
The truth however remains that Bitcoin's network technically remains untouched and decentralized as it is originally.

When whales start selling, small investors get scared and they also start selling and this affects the market. I think this sale of whales is planned, and they deliberately do it so that small investors will sell one and a half bitcoins and buy that bitcoin and increase their holdings. Borrowed investors create a trap for small investors in this way. Therefore, no matter how small an investor's investment is, he should not sell his investment in any way.

Whales will try to scare you, you should not fall into their trap in any way. No matter how much whales influence the price, they will not be able to control the Bitcoin system. Bitcoin is a decentralized currency that no one controls. And no one can control Bitcoin even if they want to.

[legiteum]

I just see whales as opportunist who manipulate the market through volatility. When they move their large holdings, they create a panic scare among retail holders who most times rush to sell off their asset to be in the safe space, but this makes those whales accumulate more of the wealth of Bitcoin by buying off what's being sold.

The truth however remains that Bitcoin's network technically remains untouched and decentralized as it is originally.

They create panic, make the price go down, then buy, and then price goes back up based on their purchases, and then they sell again. They can do this five times a day. They can spend a few $million pumping ads pumping or dumping depending on which direction they are going at that moment.

Whales make money, everybody else gets screwed.

Totally decentralized.... robbery... 

[aylabadia05]

Market price manipulation can occur in any market, including traditional markets. Bitcoin is a digital currency system, and in my opinion, its price should not be the sole measure of the decentralization intended by Bitcoin, because as a currency system, Bitcoin is more accurately about value. 1 BTC is 1 Bitcoin, or 1 BTC = 1 BTC. 1 BTC can be worth thousands of dollars, thousands of euros (EUR), and other fiat currency exchange rates.

That’s my take on the matter. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

[serjent05]

Bitcoin isn't physical, so I don't think anyone has seen bitcoin before. The part that is visible is the price that most lots interact with everyday. That makes the price part of BTC. If small circle of people can come together and swing the price by the moves they take in the market, is bitcoin still fully decentralize in all aspects?

Anyone can see the code of Bitcoin, the transaction, the blockchain, the transaction fees, the hashes, they are all visible, not only the price.  Btw, price is not part of Bitcoin, it is the amount people are willing to pay for Bitcoin.  So saying that Bitcoin is not decentralized because the price (which is not part of Bitcoin) is manipulated?  I think that is somehow a flawed logic.

yes, the WHALE guys don't control bitcoin, they can't change bitcoin rules, that part a'int questionable. Just questioning whether bitcoin is decentralize when a important part of it which is the price is not.

Is not the Bitcoin's market a free market?  Free market means holders have the right to do any strategy they wanted to do with their holdings, or how they will approach the market.  There is no forced selling or forced buying but traders are free when they want their holdings to sell or how much they wanted to buy or sell Bitcoin. 

So are you saying that the price demand and sell order are not by individual?

[legiteum]

Is not the Bitcoin's market a free market?  Free market means holders have the right to do any strategy they wanted to do with their holdings, or how they will approach the market.  There is no forced selling or forced buying but traders are free when they want their holdings to sell or how much they wanted to buy or sell Bitcoin. 

So are you saying that the price demand and sell order are not by individual?

Fraud isn't a "free market". It's like saying you are "free" to buy or not buy mislabeled milk.

When the Whales crash the price by strategically timed, rapid selling, combined with negative stories of panic strategically placed in paid media, they are engaging in fraud because they are conveying a notion that is false in aid of their profits.

Buyers and sellers, of course, are free to steer clear of markets, like Bitcoin, that are dominated by fraudulent activity. Perhaps there's a certain "stupidity tax" on those who would engage in such a market where it's obvious they have no chance.

Overall, however, this detracts from Bitcoin's value of the long run. Investors tend to only get screwed once or twice before they don't ever buy the investment again.

And yes, this is why doing this is illegal for normal securities like stocks. It's not for the "good of mankind" or whatever, it's so investors can trust they won't get screwed when they buy shares of a company. In other words, stocks and every other investment like real estate would be valued lower if investors had to worry about people defrauding the market. Today, Bitcoin enjoys a "halo effect" from securities regulations, and people assume, wrongly, that their investment in Bitcoin is protected just like other investments have been in the US for the last 100 years. When they start to learn the truth, this will be downward pressure on the price of Bitcoin.

[Pi-network314159]

've been going back and forth and racking my brain on this for sometime and it keeps being me back to the same thing. It is fine we'll say bitcoin is decentralization, no central authority, no single control. We'll still say and know that the price can get swunged by some group of guy that we know as WHALES.

this leaves some questions open because we'll say bitcoin is decentralized, should it not reflect in the whole part of it behaviour.

i understand your point mate, but the truth of the matter is that decentralization works on every part but the price of bitcoin is determined by demand and supply/ buy and sell. when the whale sell huge it dumps the market and when they buy huge it increases the market, and that is why bitcoin is volatile.

what makes it different from centralized authorities is that they can decide to manipulate the price and come up with any figure without any evidence but in decentralization, the supply can not be tempered since we all knows its rule cant be changed, the market cap can not be tempered and this whales dont have access to your non custodial wallet. they only play the role of highest shear holders which can even be replaced by another whale in the twinkle of an eye, and secondly everyone in the ecosystem is equal but different in fund which mean if you have huge fund today you can make changes in the market by the type of buy or sell you do.

yes, the WHALE guys don't control bitcoin, they can't change bitcoin rules, that part a'int questionable. Just questioning whether bitcoin is decentralize when a important part of it which is the price is not.

Feel free to drop you thought.

well let me inform you that Satoshi Nakamoto intention was never to create bitcoin to be used as a manipulative asset but for buying and selling using p2p exchange wallet to wallet, just a coin to be used as an alternative to fiat and cross bother transaction in that way no one will have the mindset of manipulating the price. but i guess some dude, companies , government and some institution started buying it in bulk just to have a higher shear to reduce the supply and have a manipulative power in the market, that is why you see it look like whale are manipulating the market.

[PhilosopherKing]

Price and protocol are two separate layers. Whales can move the price because markets are permissionless, anyone with enough capital can buy or sell. That's not a flaw in decentralization, that's how free markets work. The decentralization guarantee is that no whale can reverse your transaction, freeze your wallet, change the supply, or alter the rules. Gold prices get manipulated too. That doesn't make gold less scarce. Same logic applies here.

yes I know all this of the difference, your right. Just don't think you are see it the way I am. Price is a important part of a bitcoin so any characteristic that bitcoin be having, should also cover the price since it is a thing that is part of bitcoin. thing I am trying to say is from logic bitcoin still be looking like it is not fully decentralized because some part of it like the price isn't.

[hero_the_bossman]

Price and protocol are two separate layers. Whales can move the price because markets are permissionless, anyone with enough capital can buy or sell. That's not a flaw in decentralization, that's how free markets work. The decentralization guarantee is that no whale can reverse your transaction, freeze your wallet, change the supply, or alter the rules. Gold prices get manipulated too. That doesn't make gold less scarce. Same logic applies here.

yes I know all this of the difference, your right. Just don't think you are see it the way I am. Price is a important part of a bitcoin so any characteristic that bitcoin be having, should also cover the price since it is a thing that is part of bitcoin. thing I am trying to say is from logic bitcoin still be looking like it is not fully decentralized because some part of it like the price isn't.

What do you mean by "decentralized price"?

[Hazink]

I just see whales as opportunist who manipulate the market through volatility. When they move their large holdings, they create a panic scare among retail holders who most times rush to sell off their asset to be in the safe space, but this makes those whales accumulate more of the wealth of Bitcoin by buying off what's being sold.
The truth however remains that Bitcoin's network technically remains untouched and decentralized as it is originally.

Some ugly whales just drive joy by causing panic in the market, and they always succeed in playing with the narrow-minded investors mind, ordinarily moving large sums onto an exchange which will be recorded as if they want to offload their holdings should not immediately cause a price decrease but out of panic of people not knowing what the amount will cause to the market they rush to sell using their selling pressure to trigger a negative market and this whales take advantage of such very well.

[BitBrainers]

Price is discovered by the market, not by Bitcoin. Bitcoin sets the rules: 21 million supply, no reversals, no freezing. The price is what buyers and sellers agree on in any given moment. That process is decentralized by definition. No single entity sets it. Whales have influence the same way any large seller in any market does. That is not centralization. That is capital.

[UchihaSarada]

Price is discovered by the market, not by Bitcoin. Bitcoin sets the rules: 21 million supply, no reversals, no freezing. The price is what buyers and sellers agree on in any given moment. That process is decentralized by definition. No single entity sets it. Whales have influence the same way any large seller in any market does. That is not centralization. That is capital.

Decentralization is with Bitcoin blockchain, nodes, hashrate and transaction confirmations while with Bitcoin market, it's not decentralized. It's a free market but there are centralized exchanges and decentralized exchanges and as same as all markets, Bitcoin market is manipulative too while it is not decentralized.

The capital in and out Bitcoin market can be manipulative too because the market is finite with limited capital in the market at different time. Like with Covid 19 and massive money printed globally, huge new capital appeared in Bitcoin market and lifted it soaring in a previous market cycle. In 2024 and 2025 bull market, it lacked of enough new capital because of monetary policies from many central banks, wars and trade wars as well.

[legiteum]

Y'all are talking past each other, imho.

For most people, the only interesting attribute of Bitcoin is the price. You buy Bitcoin at a lower price in hopes it goes to a higher price so you can sell it at a profit. For perhaps 95% of people who Bitcoin, this is what Bitcoin actually is.

For the other 5%, who are massively overrepresented here , Bitcoin is a bunch of other technical things that has nothing to do with the price.

If you are in the 95%, then Bitcoin's price manipulation is the same as Bitcoin manipulation. That's the disconnect here.

[Haunebu]

There is no contradiction here of any sort op. BTC has, is and shall stay decentralized to varying extents over time regardless of whether a small group control the entire network or not. Why? Because price is just one aspect of it as you said so yourself.

Basically, the miner groups, whale investors etc would all need to join forces in order to try and centralise it to a large extent(Not fully), but that probably will never happen. Think!

[BitBrainers]

You are right that the market itself is not decentralized. I should have been more precise. What Bitcoin decentralizes is the ledger, the issuance, the rules. The price discovery layer is just a market and markets have always been games of capital and information asymmetry.
Your point on new capital is the one most people miss. 2020 had a once in a generation money printer event that flooded every risk asset. 2024 had ETFs but no equivalent liquidity shock. Different fuel, different trajectory. Whales did not change, the capital environment did.

[rat03gopoh]

Just questioning whether bitcoin is decentralize when a important part of it which is the price is not.

Bitcoin remains decentralized, but your psychology and that of most speculators tends not to be. Now, ask Iran in their situation whether price always matters. And you'd be completely wrong to insist on price being part of the decentralized aspect. You always have full control over setting the buy or sell price at will in any market.

[BlackBoss_]

Bitcoin remains decentralized, but your psychology and that of most speculators tends not to be. Now, ask Iran in their situation whether price always matters. And you'd be completely wrong to insist on price being part of the decentralized aspect. You always have full control over setting the buy or sell price at will in any market.

Market is opened for everyone but all markets have manipulations. Market makers try to do manipulations for profit and they can lift the price up or sink it down for profit in both sides but they also have interest in getting profit in the long term as investment too. It's one of some reasons making Bitcoin is a very potential asset for market makers as its value and price growths are very strong with time.

Bitcoin price grows with years.
https://newhedge.io/bitcoin/yearly-candles

Why Iran?
Wars are only short term or mid term and all wars have to end one way or another. So far Bitcoin has gone through many bad events from economic, pandemic to global and regional geopolitical conflicts and wars.
[Newbies] Bitcoin responses in wars, conflicts & Lessons learned

[davis196]

Are we back in 2017-2018? OP, you are asking questions that were asked 8-9 years ago. Just search around the older forum threads and you will find answers. BTC decentralization has nothing to do with the Bitcoin price. Bitcoin is as decentralized no matter if the BTC price is 100K dollars or 1 dollar. The Bitcoin market is more mature than ever and I don't believe that a bunch of crypto whales selling their BTC would cause anything more than a really small and temporary price drop. OP, you have a Full Member forum account, which means that you are not a Newbie. Why are you asking newbie questions?

[3kpk3]

OP, you have a Full Member forum account, which means that you are not a Newbie. Why are you asking newbie questions?

This is nothing new at all and very common in this forum where low or high ranking members ask questions which have already been answered a gazillion times before through older threads, but they don't bother checking those threads using the search function.

This is a free forum though where there is no restrictions on how many times a particular question can be asked at the end of the day.