Signature Ban Appeal and Q&A : appeal your sigban here

[nutildah]

It's sad to find out that I got a signature ban today. I feel myself lucky as it's a short-term ban. Can the quality posters of the forum tell me where I've made a mistake by analyzing my last posts? Because I don't think that I'm at fault and this is even worse.

Because I'll get another ban if I continue making posts in the same way. Can you help me with this situation? 

I realize you're not addressing me directly, but I want you to know that I think you're a good writer, which is why I gave you the minimum ban. The problem is you seem to be focused on producing content that not many people read or acknowledge, and the subjects you address have been covered many, many times. Each week, for months at a time, you seem to just be going through the motions in order to get paid.

My advice is to put more thought into each post in an attempt to say something novel or interesting, or something that promotes a conversation and hasn't been previously discussed hundreds of times.

Please stop posting in this thread. If you have more questions or complaints, feel free to start your own thread in Meta or post in one of the threads already created about the subject. Thank you for your consideration.

[DYING_S0UL]

nutildah, is this a bug? 

Not enough data? I don't think so! It's TryNinja Btw. He has more than enough post/merit/activity for your tool to work with! Didn't make any sense.

Or is it that the tool hasn't calculated his scores yet?

[ryzaadit]

nutildah, is this a bug?  

Not enough data? I don't think so! It's TryNinja Btw. He has more than enough post/merit/activity for your tool to work with! Didn't make any sense.

Or is it that the tool hasn't calculated his scores yet?

Most likely it is due to the recent post being too short to be scored. I checked TryNinja; his post is a bit short + on the local board.

Here:

Yeah some local board posters no longer have scores, and this is because the majority of their recent posts are not in English or are too short to get counted. They likely shouldn't have had scores in the first place. All posts counted for the analysis must be in English, but sometimes foreign language posts slipped through, and this caused inaccurate scores to be generated for ~60 accounts. This issue has been fixed.

Same thing with one of our local communities; Chikito from Indonesia with Profile ID: 938833. He got no scored, based on his post most likely due to majority of his post is being created on local board.

[buwaytress]

Hey nutildah, we probably have not interacted properly before. I know I'm absent in Meta unless tagged (doesn't happen much) and tend not to because I don't know enough to say things fairly but I'm here to say a word for a couple of people who've been sigbanned. I'll try to keep it short!

Firstly, good job on the effort (I understand it's focused on gambling sub); long overdue. Used to report users all the time. Saw it didn't do much. Had to self-moderate threads just to keep things legible. If this helps, I'm all for it.

I do feel there has to be an adjustment in the initial screening -- I'm making a big assumption here, I realise, that the screening is what caught them in the net, based on the two users I know who've been sigbanned. Looking up their profiles on your tool, their main weakness seems to be a lack of post diversity and lack of merit.

I'm going to offer my take. I see the gambling sub housing an important part of the 'economy': the paid pools and events, in particular, where people actually pay money for sports related events, which can and usually does include gambling on sponsor sites. Some of the most active users there actually only use the forum for these events. And so, can appear to be posting only in the same megathreads daily. I'm assuming this is what causes them to have their content deemed repetitive or not in diverse topics enough.

This also partially explains the merit... or lack of. I've always struggled with merit. I generally want to reward well-thought out posts and Bitcoin-centric ones, I suppose most people do. But perhaps it is also okay to view highly-engaged genuine accounts with financial skin staked in the forum economy favourably, without a mandatory bias on merits... why?

Becase they are valuable. They keep the events going with fees. They're a part of the forum economy. They may wear sigs from different casinos, and if so, are seen in these threads by actual gamblers, serving the sig sponsors well. If I were a campaign manager, these accounts would be the first I'd seek out, so my product gets the eyes I want the most. These threads they post in also tend to be self-moderated or heavily (manually) reported when there are shitposters who clearly don't gamble. Almost like a self-governed subset.

Of these accounts, I've known one for years, he's in my group team in a gambling event, and joins my annual Champions League pool. I was really surprised to learn he was sigbanned. Perhaps it was deserved, under the current parameters of your tool and designs of this effort.

But I would ask to think about these users in gambling. I might consider that asking such accounts to diversify their content would actually direct them to change their behaviour artificially, posting in subs they aren't actually interested in. To achieve content diveristy and perhaps gain merits.

If this is indeed the desired outcome... should it be?

[Hhampuz]

If this is indeed the desired outcome... should it be?

#Freearallmuus

[notocactus]

But I would ask to think about these users in gambling. I might consider that asking such accounts to diversify their content would actually direct them to change their behaviour artificially, posting in subs they aren't actually interested in. To achieve content diveristy and perhaps gain merits.

You're truly right about that but spammers always adapt.

Mega thread? Ok, they will create many new threads in gambling board and I think you know about their complaints many times like while threads in gambling discussion board were either locked or deleted.

Gambling discussion board? Ok, they will spam more in local boards or other boards of the forum.

and next ... 

If this is indeed the desired outcome... should it be?

It solved problems somewhat but problems still exist and continue because spams are not only in Gambling board. So far it seems spammers can do their jobs in the other boards especially local boards from farming merits to farming their posts.

In my opinion, let's focus on why spammers can rank up with merit easily rather than wasting time to check their posts with plagiarism or AI, they already complained about that.

[Xiestar]

But I would ask to think about these users in gambling. I might consider that asking such accounts to diversify their content would actually direct them to change their behaviour artificially, posting in subs they aren't actually interested in. To achieve content diveristy and perhaps gain merits.

You're truly right about that but spammers always adapt.

Mega thread? Ok, they will create many new threads in gambling board and I think you know about their complaints many times like while threads in gambling discussion board were either locked or deleted.

Gambling discussion board? Ok, they will spam more in local boards or other boards of the forum.

and next ... 

The problem is natural gambler poster was affected by this sig ban movement due to applying a metrics that doesn’t consider a natural gambling post behavior.

Nutildah has his own preference on what is “constructive” while he himself is not a natural gambler. There’s a lot of spammer on gambling board especially from the circle of merit jerker from local board that being shielded by their huge number of accumulated merits.

What I don’t understand is why sig ban is being weaponized to stop someone from posting on board that he was accustomed just because there’s low merit circulation in there.

It’s like gatekeeping campaigns to a group of person that has high merit even though they are not naturally gambling poster which the campaign really needed. I saw many recent sig ban user that post an organic conversation related to gambling.

Maybe the problem on spam is due to hiring user that is not a natural gambler poster? Those sports mega threads give chance to many non-gambler user to spam fest in there by using recycle idea from sports article.

[Rhow]

I do feel there has to be an adjustment in the initial screening -- I'm making a big assumption here, I realise, that the screening is what caught them in the net, based on the two users I know who've been sigbanned. Looking up their profiles on your tool, their main weakness seems to be a lack of post diversity and lack of merit.

But I would ask to think about these users in gambling. I might consider that asking such accounts to diversify their content would actually direct them to change their behaviour artificially, posting in subs they aren't actually interested in. To achieve content diveristy and perhaps gain merits.

If this is indeed the desired outcome... should it be?

This part of what you said seems important to me. Yes, many people here participate in sports competitions, participate in pools with their own money and then discuss the results. It is normal that a large part of the posts of all these users will be in the same thread.

But I once heard nutildah say that he doesn't actually issue sigbans just because of the diversity or lack of merit of someone's post. He said that the results of the calculations are only part of it. But before giving someone a sigban, he actually checks it with his own hands.This means that it is clear that he does not consider diversity mandatory, but rather makes decisions based on post quality.

Please note that the generation and analysis of these scores is just one part of a larger process that involves manual review before issuing a sigban.

No, you are not obligated to do anything. You can continue posting wherever you want, about whatever you want. You shouldn't "chase merits" either. You should post here because you enjoy contributing.

Believe it or not, people were doing that here before the merit system was even invented.

[cryptofrka]

Not even sure if this is the right thread for this - sorry in advance if it isn't. I purposefully avoid the 'Meta cesspool'. Anyway, here goes..

______________________________

Just a thought. How about, when anybody has an idea like this, people actually ask some relevant people for opinions?
A lot of good accounts navigate (and work on) that part of the forum. A lot of the ones making decisions barely step a foot in there. Instead of asking 'hey fellas, what do you need to make it better' you come swinging hammers and acting all important.

As far as I see, we now have a script that's in charge of banning people that probably use some sort of scripts. Awesome, I'm so thrilled. 150 IQ solution right there.

______________________________

Yes, gambling boards are filled with spam. No, not every megathread is a spamfest. No, merits were never a true representation of a member's quality.

Ask any campaign manager what we feel about the idea of temporary signature bans and we'll all tell you - great idea.
Ask us about the current implementation and all of us will tell you it's fucking terrible.

And don't think I'm writing this because I've got skin in the game. We run 1 campaign, have some of the forum's best posters in it and nobody got banned.
I'm writing this because I'm tired of the tyranny of the few - who barely know what's happening down here, yet every once in a blue moon descend from the heavens to bless us plebs with another ray of liquid crap.

______________________________

TLDR: great idea, crappy implementation.
Future tip: ask around before pissing in our playground. We hate parts of it, but it's still ours.

Epic punchline: if XY Casino, through XYZ campaign manager, wants to pay YZX user 3$ to post random generic crap, the last thing I'd expect on a 'freedom of speech' forum is for the higher-ups to decide that they shouldn't.

[Mahiyammahi]

If this is indeed the desired outcome... should it be?

It solved problems somewhat but problems still exist and continue because spams are not only in Gambling board. So far it seems spammers can do their jobs in the other boards especially local boards from farming merits to farming their posts.

In my opinion, let's focus on why spammers can rank up with merit easily rather than wasting time to check their posts with plagiarism or AI, they already complained about that.

If anyone has problems with gambling thread than they can just avoid it. Not everyone likes gambling.
You can never make a fish fly,
nor teach a bird to breathe beneath the waves.
But remember, even the bird that owns the sky
still bows to the water when it needs to heal.

The forum was surviving on it's own till the date. Still some people visit the forum to have the knowledge of technical aspect, learns others opinions on holding, trading , selling their asset.
I agree that this forum was created for the sole reason of Bitcoin and it's ecosystem. If the administrator and majority has the issue with the spam section , I request Theymos to completely remove those boards and section. It's better without them , atleast we won't listen any complain.

Since it was kept like it , then I think it has the value and it should bot be judged heavily.

Epic punchline: if XY Casino, through XYZ campaign manager, wants to pay YZX user 3$ to post random generic crap, the last thing I'd expect on a 'freedom of speech' forum is for the higher-ups to decide that they shouldn't.

At most we will lose the revenue and we will see gradually forum is dying. If they belive in Better to have nothing than to keep something that brings trouble than There's nothing to say. I think campaign Manager's has enough knowledge and experience to pick a user , it's not like they are choosing someone for FCFS. From Dozzen of applications they only pick few.

nutildah, is this a bug? 

Not enough data? I don't think so! It's TryNinja Btw. He has more than enough post/merit/activity for your tool to work with! Didn't make any sense.

Or is it that the tool hasn't calculated his scores yet?

I think we need the formula to learn how he is deciding or a opensource project of this one. Other wise I don't think it gonna sustain .

One more thing I would like to know from Nutildah , does anyone audited your tool?
We can't just blindly belive a tool right.

[NigerianDragon]

What can you expect from abuser like him?

Seems like he's so happy cutting the opportunities of people to earn here.

Post quality is subjective.

People here have different interest so you can't force those people to post on threads that they don't like.

Merit earning capabilities is different Lots of good or decent poster don't get merit. Usually those people post in Meta or popular one gets a merit even if they post 1 line sentence.

Normal people don't easily earn that. So pathetic to know that he will ban those people didn't earn merit, which he always use as excuse if there are users appeal in their ban.

Nutildah is not fit on this he loves to power trip. He really like troubles and attention.

[Free Market Capitalist]

As far as I see, we now have a script that's in charge of banning people that probably use some sort of scripts. Awesome, I'm so thrilled. 150 IQ solution right there.

You might have missed this part.

Along with this information are messages triggered when certain subscore thresholds are met, meant to inform the user of ways in which they might be able to improve their score. Please note that the generation and analysis of these scores is just one part of a larger process that involves manual review before issuing a sigban.

But I agree on part with what you said.

In the gambling sections, obviously, even if the worst posters are removed, the discussions are going to be of a lower quality than in the technical sections of the forum. I don't know if people think that on other gambling forums where people don't get paid to write, the discussions are at the level of statistics professors.

If I was nutildah I would try my best to not overdo it.

[snipie]

As far as I see, we now have a script that's in charge of banning people that probably use some sort of scripts. Awesome, I'm so thrilled. 150 IQ solution right there.

You might have missed this part.

Along with this information are messages triggered when certain subscore thresholds are met, meant to inform the user of ways in which they might be able to improve their score. Please note that the generation and analysis of these scores is just one part of a larger process that involves manual review before issuing a sigban.

Yeah, true
Free Market Capitalist: Score: Elite Poster (Top 10% of active posters)
Mahiyammahi: Score: Elite Poster (Top 10% of active posters)
cryptofrka: Score: Good (Top 25% of active posters)
Rhow: Score: Good (Top 25% of active posters)
Xiestar: Score: Good (Top 25% of active posters)
notocactus: Score: Not enough data
Hhampuz: Score: Below Average (Lower 10-25% of active posters).

[Upgrade00]

You might have missed this part.

Along with this information are messages triggered when certain subscore thresholds are met, meant to inform the user of ways in which they might be able to improve their score. Please note that the generation and analysis of these scores is just one part of a larger process that involves manual review before issuing a sigban.

But I agree on part with what you said.

Shouldn't any criteria that determines bans be public and accepted as a consensus by the general forum? We have an unoffical list of (official) rules for the forum and unspoken ethical standards that are generally accepted by most to make up good posting habits? I'm of the opinion that these should guide an action as important as signature bans and not subjective standards set by any one user or group of users.
Does the forum have a spam problem? Yes

Is it heavy in the gambling board? Yes, but just as much as in bitcoin discussion or altcoin discussion boards.

Does this solution solve the problem? Imo, no it doesn't as it is handled now.  We are 3 weeks in and I really cannot see any difference in post quality when I scroll around the forum. (It may be too early to judge yet).

A bulk of the spam I come across are from users trying to rank up and get into signature campaigns and a small percentage from those already in. What we may need is heavier moderation to burst account farms and users trying to cheat their way into ranking up and leaching off the forum. If you ban ⅕ of the users in campaigns who may be problematic, I believe my forum experience will still be relatively the same but we would have successfully turned the forum somewhat hostile.
We have experienced managers here who evaluate users they choose and brands who have skin in the game (bringing their actual money to sponsor a campaign) and want value for their investment. Should we not trust that 2FA system to weed out majority of spammers and focus on other areas of the forum?

P.S, I acknowledge the efforts moderators and those who report and create threads to call attention to spammers are doing. If the forum can have a way of adding incentives for that and catching more spam and account farms early, we may have a better forum.
If we're to continue with signature bans, we may need contributions from more experienced forum members in different sections of the forum to create a balanced system.

[arallmuus]

Hi nutildah, I hope you have a great weekend

Im gonna put my post to appeal for my situation although so far I see it ends up with no one getting it and some accounts trying to belittle those that try to appeal here, kinda leave a bad taste on my mouth when I read it

According to the post you posted on the appeal thread, these would be the reason you get a sigbanned

- Unoriginal or low effort replies, including inappropriate use of AI content.
- Repetitive, previously-expressed or generic comments that don’t add value or encourage conversation.
- Consistent burst posting (regularly writing posts less than 10 minutes apart).
- Off‑topic posting or shallow engagement (doesn't provide insight, analysis or perspective).
- Posting in principle for signature campaign payment and not for the sake of contributing actual discussion.

I personally dont think I made unoriginal low effort replies, off topic, generic comments or anything that falls to the bad posting or for the sake of posting only to get paid criteria nor do I burst posting

According to your tools that you posted



As for deep threads, Im assuming these are thread that have over hundreds of pages ? Yeah BSFL thread and some other paid pools are usually deep threads and these are where I normally converse with the others

As for lack of merits, Im working on it and I know its on lower end. I try to post helpful stuff sometimes and have been getting merits from some of my posts since last week which I know its still lacking but this help prove my point that Im contributing to the actual discussion

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5438071.msg66987399#msg66987399
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5438071.msg66991811#msg66991811
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5560299.msg66998543#msg66998543


Im not TryNin_a that exceel on coding all that amazing website for the community, Im not loyc_ that know all the technical stuff or hosem_ry that is so good on tracking down related accounts ( intentionally hiding some letters to not tag them on this post ) nor am I you that knows how to do all these amazing stuff cracking down spammer but Im not the same as 100+ spammer that have received sigban from you either

My post is mainly on gambling board but most of those posts are genuine conversation not some generic response on some typical thread that people get from an online article

Im also trying to diverse it to economics board but sometimes Im lacking of things to converse there so instead of posting for the sake of posting to get paid or posting generic no value post, I try to avoid things that I know I wont be adding any value to it but I had like some posts on Economics board recently that Im familiar with

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5589613.msg66992282#msg66992282
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5589613.msg66994132#msg66994132

I personally think one of these are decent post, not good enough to get merit probably but you know merits are kinda given because you are 'someone' not because its a good post or because you join the community on the local board

Some people that I normally interact with on gambling community also expresses that Im not a shitposter/spammer that deserve a sigban. Really appreciated the community that has been staying on contact with me and expressed their thoughts after knowing that I got sigbanned

Sorry for writing all these wall of text so Im appealing on my case to lift my sigban or even if you still think Im a spammer or some sort after this appeal, I personally think 3 months are harsh and kinda lumping me in on those spammer criteria. 2-4 weeks seems sufficient as I normally averages on 20-25 posts a week ( excluding post on games&rounds ) so thats like 80-100+ posts around 5+ pages

I guess this is all, have a great day for the remaining of your weekend

[Free Market Capitalist]

Yeah, true
Free Market Capitalist: Score: Elite Poster (Top 10% of active posters)
Mahiyammahi: Score: Elite Poster (Top 10% of active posters)
cryptofrka: Score: Good (Top 25% of active posters)
Rhow: Score: Good (Top 25% of active posters)
Xiestar: Score: Good (Top 25% of active posters)
notocactus: Score: Not enough data
Hhampuz: Score: Below Average (Lower 10-25% of active posters).

So, what?

Theymos:

User ID: 35

Score: Elite Poster (Top 10% of active posters)

Wow! You must be a genius! Or a bot!

[LoyceV]

I'm going to offer my take. I see the gambling sub housing an important part of the 'economy': the paid pools and events, in particular, where people actually pay money for sports related events, which can and usually does include gambling on sponsor sites. Some of the most active users there actually only use the forum for these events.

A Sigban doesn't stop them from doing any of this, but most of them stopped posting the moment they stopped getting paid. What does that tell you about these accounts?

As for arallmuus' case: he's not on my Ignore list. After 10960 posts, that means I haven't seen worthless posts from this user on the boards I often read, and a quick look at his post history doesn't convince me he should be Sigbanned. But I don't have time to thoroughly go through it now.

[nutildah]

I personally dont think I made unoriginal low effort replies, off topic, generic comments or anything that falls to the bad posting or for the sake of posting only to get paid criteria nor do I burst posting

Its not where you're posting or what subjects you're posting about so much as using the same words to describe the same ideas repeatedly, and these posts do not seem to be appreciated by the community. In the last year you made 439 posts and received 17 merits (including 4 today). That's about 25 posts per merit, which is substantially lower than average for anyone in a signature campaign.

If you weren't already a Legendary account, do you believe you would get accepted into a signature campaign today?

merits are kinda given because you are 'someone' not because its a good post or because you join the community on the local board

That might be true but in that case its a failure on the part of merit sources in the gambling sections to demonstrate appreciation for quality posts. Since merits are often what turn regular people into "someone", the merit system is working (at least partly) as intended.

You seem to have a lot of fans who feel I've infringed on your freedoms. They are long-time fans of yours but never bothered to send you more than a handful of merits across thousands of posts. I'm just trying to understand how this dynamic is possible.

[cryptofrka]

That might be true but in that case its a failure on the part of merit sources in the gambling sections to demonstrate appreciation for quality posts. Since merits are often what turn regular people into "someone", the merit system is working (at least partly) as intended.

Are there merit sources for the Gambling boards?
As far as I know, I'm the only one - with 50 Merits monthly.

How about we use some data to see how easy it is to get merited there?

Code:

There are 85 merit sources with a total merit generation of up to 30972 sMerit per 30 days

Let's say there are 5 Merit sources for Gambling - there are not but humor me here. That's 6%.
Let's say they all have 500 Merits to award - which they surely don't but humor me again. That's 8%.

The real numbers are probably 2%, so 'not getting enough Merit' on the Gambling sub is a really shitty metric.
Gambling boards get a lot of traffic, sure. But isn't it expected? There are 500 games to bet on every single day, whereas there is just 1 Bitcoin network in existence. Gambling boards are also for 'holy hell did you see the Messi wondergoal' posts, not sure what quality are you all expecting here?

Its not where you're posting or what subjects you're posting about so much as using the same words to describe the same ideas repeatedly, and these posts do not seem to be appreciated by the community. In the last year you made 439 posts and received 17 merits (including 4 today). That's about 25 posts per merit, which is substantially lower than average for anyone in a signature campaign.

What I wrote earlier isn't about any single member, although I do like arallmuus.
It's about having vague rules again, without any real way to verify/challenge, with a shitty 'we won't give our playbook to the scammers' excuse that gives you absolute power to do as you please.

Let's keep it fully direct here - if I have a client that's a bookie - to them a 'check this pass from Yamal, incredible' is worth 3$ - whereas a 10-pager on what wallet to use is not.
If I get paid to select users that get paid to produce content for the benefit of my client, why would there ever exist a single 'nutildah' saying I cannot?

Bear in mind, I'm not saying not to ban users that are breaking the rules. What is happening now though is that there's a single 'nutildah' banning users that don't fit a criteria that is vague, unverifiable and questionable at best.

There are a handful of highly respected community members and staff who know whats involved in the score calculation, and I'd like to keep it that way, for now.

Care to name them? Just to see if any of them wrote 10 posts total in Gambling boards.

______________________________

I will say it again, struggle against spam is real and this is way overdue. It's just not the right way to do it and there are a few better ones I can immediately think of.

[NigerianDragon]

I personally dont think I made unoriginal low effort replies, off topic, generic comments or anything that falls to the bad posting or for the sake of posting only to get paid criteria nor do I burst posting

Its not where you're posting or what subjects you're posting about so much as using the same words to describe the same ideas repeatedly, and these posts do not seem to be appreciated by the community. In the last year you made 439 posts and received 17 merits (including 4 today). That's about 25 posts per merit, which is substantially lower than average for anyone in a signature campaign.

If you weren't already a Legendary account, do you believe you would get accepted into a signature campaign today?

merits are kinda given because you are 'someone' not because its a good post or because you join the community on the local board

That might be true but in that case its a failure on the part of merit sources in the gambling sections to demonstrate appreciation for quality posts. Since merits are often what turn regular people into "someone", the merit system is working (at least partly) as intended.

You seem to have a lot of fans who feel I've infringed on your freedoms. They are long-time fans of yours but never bothered to send you more than a handful of merits across thousands of posts. I'm just trying to understand how this dynamic is possible.

Looks like your reasoning is out of the line. Just because of merits? Man many member here don't chase for earn merit. They have areas of interest and it happen many people like gambling. It doesn't mean they post on that section automatically they are spammer.

Also look at you man. Do you want people to act like you? Which always like to step on the rights of other people just to get merit? Merit is not the whole thing man. Not all people same as you. Hope to see @theymos came here and release his statements towards massive abuse happening now.