Can Provably Fair games still be rigged?

[purple_sparkles]

Even without the game being rigged, almost all gamblers are losing. Why is the need to rig the games when the gambling sites already know that people will also lose.

If its clean, we still lose but mostly in the long run, because the house edge does not guarantee that the casino will win all the time. It only gives them the advantage over many bets. Imagine one player making a huge bet and winning, the casino could still end up having a losing day. Maybe some casinos become greedy and dont want that to happen, so they might try to manipulate the game. Its quite technical, but I believe this can happen, and thats why playing in a reputable casino should always be the first priority.

Also, every casino offering provably fair games should explain clearly how their system works, just like Stake does here: Stake Provably Fair Implementation. That way players can actually check how the result is generated and verified instead of just trusting the words "provably fair."

I think the game software could contain algorithms that regulate the overall ratio of winnings to losses across all players. The numbers may indeed be generated randomly, but the limits set by the algorithms could still maintain a certain level of stability and profitability for the casino.

For the individual players, however, everything would still appear to happen randomly. This would apply more to the overall number of participants, meaning that who gets lucky is genuinely determined by chance rather than by rigged results.

[Natalim]

For the individual players, however, everything would still appear to happen randomly. This would apply more to the overall number of participants, meaning that who gets lucky is genuinely determined by chance rather than by rigged results.

You are talking about a winner, then thats simply luck on his side. If there is any rigging, that would be on the casino side, not on the player.

But here is the simple logic. If a casino is already making money from the games they offer, why would they still try to rig the results and risk their whole business? If they get caught, their reputation and possibly their future could be over.

So I think sometimes we are just overthinking it. If the result can already be verified, then constantly thinking it might still be rigged does not really make much sense. I know manipulation may still be technically possible, but a reputable casino would have very little reason to take that kind of risk.

[WhoYouCantKill]

There are absolutely lots of other mechanisms put in place that a game can be manipulated despite saying it is provably fair. The RTP of the game can be altered and this is a well known thing that most providers of slot machines offer the casinos, they advertise for example 96% RTP when in fact the inner mechanisms allows the casino to operate it at 84% RTP and there is no way of us the players to verify that. A prime example of this is Play n Go which claim they offer three levels of RTP to their games.

Exactly. In other words the whole idea of probably fair is that the game’s outcome actually does follow the disclosed cryptographic process, and this doesn’t necessarily prove that the actual configuration of the game itself is fair. This whole provably fair thingy is merely just to create an illusion of control and fairness to the players, but in the end it’s all an illusion because if the operator decides to apply a different RTP setting, the expected outcome to players  could be entirely different even though the seed can still be perfectly verifiable. So in the end it’s just all an illusion.

[letteredhub]

So this does not have to be just a general discussion about trusting casinos. We can make it more technical, like what exactly should we check or audit in a provably fair system before we can really say that the fairness is real.

I think I have read something of this subject somewhere online but can't remember where exactly, although I think it talks about checking the seed after the bet is made to be sure if the seed wasn't swapped after the bet was made. The changes are a very simple way to rig a game by a casino since not every gambler would out of doubt want to go back to audit if everything still remains constant with what they saw as provably fair before betting.

[M47AK16]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

I do not think that there would be any hidden layers even after the implementation of provably fair mechanism. I mean, if there would be any room for manipulation along with provably fair system then probably at least one casino might have got for such malpractice. Because, there are experts in both gambling and cryptography who could easily identify any such manipulation. We are playing under provably fair environment for years still no one could find any such malpractice which lead me to assume that we are in safer hands to play with.

There are external/ third party cross checking facilities available to verify the hashes produced during our games which means we do not just need to rely on what a casino is claiming but we can verify and test and then we may go risking our money to gamble.

Before crypto, I am not sure how people trusted online casinos and what kind of verification mechanisms were available to them to verify/test to begin with a casino, I am just curious on learning the early history of gambling industry, especially pre-crypto era.

[sompitonov]

So this does not have to be just a general discussion about trusting casinos. We can make it more technical, like what exactly should we check or audit in a provably fair system before we can really say that the fairness is real.

I think I have read something of this subject somewhere online but can't remember where exactly, although I think it talks about checking the seed after the bet is made to be sure if the seed wasn't swapped after the bet was made. The changes are a very simple way to rig a game by a casino since not every gambler would out of doubt want to go back to audit if everything still remains constant with what they saw as provably fair before betting.

There will likely be some extremely cunning individuals or players who can find a vulnerability, an opening for deception, or subtleties that will allow them to profit from this game. Of course, they'll do it gradually, unnoticed, so as not to reveal themselves too quickly. Sometimes I even think this applies not only to games that initially present themselves as the most honest. In my opinion, it's always necessary to look deeper, because while this may be just a loud statement, the game itself may not be.

[Free Market Capitalist]

So this does not have to be just a general discussion about trusting casinos. We can make it more technical, like what exactly should we check or audit in a provably fair system before we can really say that the fairness is real.

I think I have read something of this subject somewhere online but can't remember where exactly, although I think it talks about checking the seed after the bet is made to be sure if the seed wasn't swapped after the bet was made.

That's what freebitco.in was accused of back in the day. I don't remember exactly, but I think it wasn't so much that they were actually doing it as that there was a possibility they were, and given how the site has operated in recent years, I wouldn't be surprised if they had rigged it.

[Dunamisx]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

Even a platform that already have this being manipulated will still come out be clear that they operate a provably fair game, this does not also stand as a reason why we must always detest over any gambling casino when we come across are not to be trusted in this manner, in order for us to enjoy gambling, you should not set our mind on this than focusing on how to gamble and be well entertained.

[Bluedrem]

Demonstrably fair and practically fair are two different words, but it is important to remember that what we see before our eyes is not exactly what happens behind the scenes, there are many things we do not know. Yes, like you, many casinos may boast of being fair, but analyzing the internal mechanisms can reveal real manipulation. Technical analysis and technical accuracy may make a casino site 90% reliable, but the final screw is in the hands of the managers, so they can do a lot there.

[GreatArkansas]

Demonstrably fair and practically fair are two different words, but it is important to remember that what we see before our eyes is not exactly what happens behind the scenes, there are many things we do not know. Yes, like you, many casinos may boast of being fair, but analyzing the internal mechanisms can reveal real manipulation. Technical analysis and technical accuracy may make a casino site 90% reliable, but the final screw is in the hands of the managers, so they can do a lot there.

Everything that is not open-source could be rigid; it should work like Bitcoin. We must verify, especially with some so-called 'provably fair' but closed-source code; it's difficult to trust.
So sometimes, you are just trusting the name of the casino platform; if they are really well reputed, that's your ace.

[YOSHIE]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

Basically and the official concept of each game has been verified and proven to be fair in reality and whatever the final result is, it cannot be changed, that is the true concept.

However, today's gambling practices and gambling systems can change instantly, of course they are vulnerable to manipulation, even though the gambling game has been verified as fair, users will never be in the future and external cheating will occur.

The gambling industry is a business, there is no such thing in this world as a business that wants to lose, of course they want big profits, we never know the operator's game in fiddling with the algorithms behind the scenes of the fair game, gamblers never know the hidden technology that is used behind the scenes of fair play and so on, gambling means we are in the realm of the internet world which is full of things we never expected.

[Alex077]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Yes, I think it’s fair to say that certain types of manipulation are theoretically possible, and the important thing here is to understand what provably fair actually guarantees. Such a system really does allow a player to verify that the result of a particular game was generated from data that had been set in advance and wasn’t changed by the casino after the bet was placed. But you have to understand that this doesn’t automatically mean the entire gaming system is completely protected from any kind of manipulation.

So I’d say that provably fair definitely adds a lot more transparency and makes simple result manipulation much harder, but you still shouldn’t treat the “provably fair” label as a 100% guarantee that no manipulation of any kind is possible. A lot depends on how properly and transparently the system is implemented by that particular casino.

[Hispo]

If probably fairness can be manipulated and rigged, then it never was probably fairness to from the very beginning.

The whole point of having hashes from the casino server is being able to verify the story of the results of the session, son one can be sure the only thing favoring the casino is the edge of the house.

When done correctly, provably fairness actually removes trust. But it requires gamblers to be educated enough and aware on how those mechanisms work. It does not matter how a casino alledgelly implements fairness if their gamblers don't know how to verify.

[Perfectbaby]

Probably fair game/casino is just a name that is being used to attract and lure gamblers into wanting to use their platform without them even knowing if they can actually manipulate it or not, but then they knows what they are doing because since everyone are that looking for a casino that can be trusted they believed that they wouldn’t know as they could do all the manipulation at their ends.
So when people talks about probably fair game it’s down to them that people are just eager to use it without them knowing if they manipulate it or not.

[Stepstowealth]

So I’d say that provably fair definitely adds a lot more transparency and makes simple result manipulation much harder, but you still shouldn’t treat the “provably fair” label as a 100% guarantee that no manipulation of any kind is possible. A lot depends on how properly and transparently the system is implemented by that particular casino.

Provably fairness adds transparency to the casino, it gives the confidence to gamblers who understand that if they are losing in a game, it is from the normal chance, not under manipulation. Many gamblers will be quick to make the mistake of thinking and even accusing the casino that when they lose a casino game that a casino claims to be provably fair that the casino is telling a lie but they forget that there is something called House Edge that will always exist in this business model, and will always put the casino at a position which is at an advantage than you the gambler. Provably fair does not automatically equal a higher chance of winning in a game. This is why you should also make sure to gamble responsibly whenever you come across a game that claims to be provably fair because your chances of winning are not as high as you think.

[BitBakerr1]

When we say that a game is probably fair, what is meant is that the outcome of that particular game was generated from the committed inputs and was not actually altered afterwards, but does that automatically prove that the entire game or the subsequent input’s implementation is or will be honest? Definitely not. There could still be subsequent manipulations in the payout logics, probability mappings, and several other areas in or outside of the seed generation process. So probably fair doesn’t automatically mean a game cannot be rigged.

I think we need to actually make it clear, when a game is not fair it is not fair in general, let’s stop making it look as if being fair is when it is okay in a particular area.

If a game is manipulated in any way, then it is not fair again, and we cannot say because it is manipulated in a particular way it is fair, that’s not true.
When a game is manipulated, even if it is the smallest manipulation, the game is not fair in general.

[free-bit.co.in]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.
I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Yes, you hit the right spot. Even though the Provably Fair algorithm mathematically verifies a cryptographic hash, a casino or gaming platform can do a lot of tricks on the backend if they want. The idea that the game is 100% rigged if the seed and hash match is a huge superstition.

We placed 240k bets on BetFury - Limbo failed: 97.33% vs 99.02% RTP

If you read this post, you will understand that the seed that BetFury has published here already has the result written in it. So it proves that the result has not been changed. But it does not give an opportunity to verify whether the result is actually generated from the advertised odds or formula.

If someone analyzes it technically, they will understand how platforms can manipulate even after checking out the hash.

[xenomorfo]

If probably fairness can be manipulated and rigged, then it never was probably fairness to from the very beginning.

The whole point of having hashes from the casino server is being able to verify the story of the results of the session, son one can be sure the only thing favoring the casino is the edge of the house.

When done correctly, provably fairness actually removes trust. But it requires gamblers to be educated enough and aware on how those mechanisms work. It does not matter how a casino alledgelly implements fairness if their gamblers don't know how to verify.

in fact, if there is something rotten, the rottenness starts from the beginning in theory
but if you think about it carefully: in some cases, seeing the money some become greedy and start manipulating
so maybe it's not really true, i think there is no beginning where you can understand if you will really end up manipulating the actual fairness of a game
at least i think so.

[fredericktaylor]

Demonstrably fair and practically fair are two different words, but it is important to remember that what we see before our eyes is not exactly what happens behind the scenes, there are many things we do not know. Yes, like you, many casinos may boast of being fair, but analyzing the internal mechanisms can reveal real manipulation. Technical analysis and technical accuracy may make a casino site 90% reliable, but the final screw is in the hands of the managers, so they can do a lot there.

Just checking the seed and hash is a good method, but it is not possible to confirm that the casino is being run 100% correctly or fairly based on its results. It is not possible for a gambler to know how a casino is actually run, so when we check the results of a casino, it is very important for a gambler to observe the withdraw facilities or methods and the reputation and overall transparency of the casino.

[Hispo]

If probably fairness can be manipulated and rigged, then it never was probably fairness to from the very beginning.

The whole point of having hashes from the casino server is being able to verify the story of the results of the session, son one can be sure the only thing favoring the casino is the edge of the house.

When done correctly, provably fairness actually removes trust. But it requires gamblers to be educated enough and aware on how those mechanisms work. It does not matter how a casino alledgelly implements fairness if their gamblers don't know how to verify.

in fact, if there is something rotten, the rottenness starts from the beginning in theory
but if you think about it carefully: in some cases, seeing the money some become greedy and start manipulating
so maybe it's not really true, i think there is no beginning where you can understand if you will really end up manipulating the actual fairness of a game
at least i think so.

If a game is supposed to be verified with the use of third party software in order to see whether the hashes coincide with the results being displayed on the screen, then it becomes realistically difficult for someone to fake results.
That is the whole point of asymmetric cryptography, you don't actually need to trust what one single party says, and that is also why Bitcoin has managed to continue functioning for so many years with no interruption.

Provably fairness is possible and it can be used by gamblers if they have a minimum of understanding on the tools they are supposed to use.