Can Provably Fair games still be rigged?

[Yorubek]

The question is are there games that, could be considered not not fair in sport espercially, football the truth is that all gsmes are fair and again all ganes are not even fair. The reason why i say this is that, when it comes to sport betting games are rated based on the strength and weakness of the two teams involved. This is the basis of even odds been given to the teams that are involved. And so a team with muxh better training facility, better players and even better exposure will likely with a team whose players are not that good and with less equipment.

Another point we should consider too is that, with the current state of the sporting industry we we are having , allegations of favoritism even coming from various sporting bodies , most espercially football using the just concluded world cup as example. One is tempted to say that there is high level of interest and when there is an interest coming from even organisers of sporting events. The probability of duch an event or game been fair will be low.

Lastly we should also know that this is sport, and in sport you dont expect gsmes to go as expected no matter how good a team is there is always the elements of surprice which can rise up. So this is a very sensible topic that has different sides to it.

We hope that transparency will increase in the world of sports by using modern technology, but when the issue of transparency is in the hands of the management, the transparency of the game is not always visible. The World Cup is a very popular game where there is no shortage of technology and the common man is watching and understanding everything. In fact, no matter what we see in reality, many things happen or go on behind the scenes which are never possible to see from the outside. The more transparency increases within the game, the more the common man will be attracted to the game. Sports betting is the most unexpected thing that happens, we have to believe that it is absolutely true.

[OgNasty]

If it could be rigged, then it certainly wouldn’t fit my definition of provably fair. I think maybe a casino could pull a bait and switch and have you playing on a rigged game that they claim is provably fair, but you would be able to detect that after the fact even if you knew what you were doing.

[boyptc]

The probability of rigging provably fair is there. And even the house always wins, there can be some gamblers who just get lucky and very fortunate with how much they win.

That's why we see some casinos do apply restrictions for some players who have been winning the most. If they can rig the games, they can also modify the rules.

Owning the entire system and the platform and even have those providers have to disclose things behind closed doors, they knew it and we can take a guess that there's a possibility that it can be rigged.

No system is 100% safe and secure.

[Chibit01]

I think I have read something of this subject somewhere online but can't remember where exactly, although I think it talks about checking the seed after the bet is made to be sure if the seed wasn't swapped after the bet was made.

That's what freebitco.in was accused of back in the day. I don't remember exactly, but I think it wasn't so much that they were actually doing it as that there was a possibility they were, and given how the site has operated in recent years, I wouldn't be surprised if they had rigged it.

I believe this is the thread where they were accused of that. Problem with Freebitco.in Provably Fair Engine

And funny how the casino representative did not even respond to the accusation as I read through the thread. 

If Provably Fair can actually be rigged like this, then casinos should not be boasting about how their game's result can be verified, as if they don't have access to manipulate it, even before the seed is generated. 

[L E G E N D A R Y]

If it could be rigged, then it certainly wouldn’t fit my definition of provably fair. I think maybe a casino could pull a bait and switch and have you playing on a rigged game that they claim is provably fair, but you would be able to detect that after the fact even if you knew what you were doing.

Maybe your definition of provably fair is actually unrealistic and maybe what the casinos are trying to make us believe. Gamblers complained so much about the games being rigged and not really trusting that it’s just all about them being unlucky, so the casinos had to bring up some kind of a mechanism or something to give gamblers some level of assurance, make them believe everything about the game is fair while they still get to do their thing behind closed doors. Provably fair may somehow manage to reduce rigging the games, but it doesn’t completely eliminate it, and that’s just the reality of it.

[Alphakilo]

If it could be rigged, then it certainly wouldn’t fit my definition of provably fair. I think maybe a casino could pull a bait and switch and have you playing on a rigged game that they claim is provably fair, but you would be able to detect that after the fact even if you knew what you were doing.

Maybe your definition of provably fair is actually unrealistic and maybe what the casinos are trying to make us believe. Gamblers complained so much about the games being rigged and not really trusting that it’s just all about them being unlucky, so the casinos had to bring up some kind of a mechanism or something to give gamblers some level of assurance, make them believe everything about the game is fair while they still get to do their thing behind closed doors. Provably fair may somehow manage to reduce rigging the games, but it doesn’t completely eliminate it, and that’s just the reality of it.

That's the reality quite alright because that's not a guarantee of true randomness assigned to any user.
It's better to rely and use open source or third party verification scripts to be safe when gambling on probably fair games just to be safe than sorry, because no matter how secure or trusted the verification widgets of any of these games appear, there's always that chance of the game being rigged.

[obuoma]

Probably fair games are not rigged because the game can be verified.  They make the seed available and through that you can check the randomness of the games to see if they are rigged. We shouldn't mistake house edge for rigging, house edge only ensures that the game favors the house more than the players and that is not what rigging means. I don't think the casinos have any need to rig the games when they already at advantage.

[Hispo]

Probably fair games are not rigged because the game can be verified.  They make the seed available and through that you can check the randomness of the games to see if they are rigged. We shouldn't mistake house edge for rigging, house edge only ensures that the game favors the house more than the players and that is not what rigging means. I don't think the casinos have any need to rig the games when they already at advantage.

There are certainly small volume and unliquid casinos which engage in rigging in order to get even faster profits and have an advantage in business, but those are casinos which I would not even create an account on, since they have no reputation.

Also, with the sheer amount of ignorance on math and statistics, I would.not be surprised there are people out there on the internet who believe a casino having a edge would be the same as rigging games against gamblers. Those are the same people who see gamnling as a source of income, instead of entertainment.

[alegotardo]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Yes, its possible... a site can present valid seed and hash and still manipulate the game in its favor with other ways, because the seed only proves that the final result was derived from certain data, but the site can choose that data strategically in a way that favors it, or it can omit rounds, manipulate bets, payments, the game rules or others.....

For example, what is the point of your bet being valid if the site simply refuses/cancels your bet saying that you violated some rule?
Another way for you to be harmed even with a valid seed is when the RNG may be correct, but the formula that transforms the hash into a result, multiplier, limit, rate or payout contains an house edge that is higher that what you imagine.

The site can also credit a wrong balance to you, apply low limits when they see that you are winning more than they would like, lock or cancel your withdrawals, arbitrarily change the bonus conditions or even temporarily make the site unavailable for your login.

There are many ways to manipulate you, which is why it is necessary to choose reliable sites with a good reputation.

[famososMuertos]

I read some of the responses and I'm surprised by the lack of consensus, but I think the main issue is one of jargon or terminology. If the seed doesn't match, it's rigged. Then, if the seed is verified, the game is Probably Fair, meaning randomness is guaranteed, but the game can be statistically controlled to give the house an edge, and that's where the fact that it's rigged doesn't mean it's rigged.

So, what we should all agree on is that a casino could have a 100% "probably fair" game and at the same time mathematically manipulate the house edge, which is "normal"... in quotes, since the house always wins.

[jeremypwr]

I'd like to think not since that is the reason I would be playing it in the first place
Casinos take these kinds of things very seriously so I doubt it happens often if at all

[yahoo62278]

If a casino is ever proven to not be provably fair then it is safe to say that particular casino will be out of business fast, but I think most of your bigger casinos are operating fair. As gamblers we say scam or whatever when we play originals and lose, but would we really keep playing if we believed that?

I have heard of salted seeds as well but I do not know exactly how they work, what they are, and how a casino could use them against the players. If someone knows the answer to this, then it may be possible for a casino to cheat. Feel free to explain at the least so I can learn a little something.

[yhiaali3]

I agree with the view that using encrypted algorithms does not automatically mean providing complete security for the average user because the code may be so complex that it is difficult for non experts to verify it, which always leaves the possibility of underhanded manipulation.

In my opinion the focus should be on the random seeds to ensure that the casino does not know the result in advance. There should also be independent external tools that allow the player to enter the encrypted symbols (hashes) after the game to ensure that the results is match, Of course, this algorithms must be subject to oversight by internationally recognized auditing bodies.

[Darker45]

This is like an example of what a paradox is. If a provably fair game is rigged, then why is it called provably fair?

If it's rigged and it's provable, then it can be considered provably rigged. If it can't be proven rigged or fair, then nothing is provable at all, so there's no point talking about fairness.  

But I guess the point of fairness shouldn't just be about whether the server seeds match or whether the client seed and the nonce get you the same game result but also whether what the casino claims are true.

Provable fairness could only prove that the bet result was already there before your bet, right? But it can't prove that the claim of a casino that it only has 0.5% house edge is false, that it actually has 10%? The mathematics of provable fairness only speaks of the real randomness of the result.

[TedMosby]

There are many threads about provably fair on this forum. Here I gathered some. Perhaps it's enough to address your questions.

Is provably fair really real?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5589268

How FAIR are those provably fair games?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1189013

"Provably Fair": How Fair & Provable is it?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184988

Provably Fair- How Can You Know?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5484319

Do you verify every bet as a gambler? Provably Fair Guide.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5227525

[AHOYBRAUSE]

I am 100% convinced that it's rigged to perfection. These games results are crazy all the time. about 70% of my sessions oin the past are losing sessions, despite betting on outcomes with 52% win chance or higher. So mathematically this doesn't make any sense since I should win my sessions (and obviously lose to house edge, but not to the w/l record). And we are not talking about a few bets here, I have over 20 million of wager with millions of bets. That's a sample size that should be enough to see the advertised results.

Funny that also once you raise the wager especially a long losing streak always follows. Sounds "provably fair", or does it??

[Cointxz]

If it could be rigged, then it certainly wouldn’t fit my definition of provably fair. I think maybe a casino could pull a bait and switch and have you playing on a rigged game that they claim is provably fair, but you would be able to detect that after the fact even if you knew what you were doing.

Exactly, if it’s rigged then it’s not provably fair.

Just because a casino claiming they are using provably fair systems doesn’t mean it’s true already. The essence of PF system is the transparency so that everyone can check on the result fairness.

There’s some group like @ProvablyFair.org that debunk casino that offers a shady game even though they claim they are using PF system.

[New Judgement]

On a quick search for third-party verification of probably fair games, I saw this site that allows you verify independently some games
https://100rtp.games/tools/provably-fair-checker/ It surely makes sense to be able to verify it outside the casino. I would've loved to be able to calculate it myself to be very sure, but sadly I'm no crypto developer. I'm not eliminating the fact that casinos are cheating on their probably fair promise, neither am I saying they do, I don't really trust them so much.

In cases like this you have to pick a side to represent what you think. The fact that you don’t trust the casinos means you are in support that they are cheating their customers. Well you are not alone, because I don’t trust the casinos either, there is an element of cheating in their operations. The owner of a business always have an edge over their customers by profiting off them in whatever manner. They won’t make it very obvious for the customers to understand, but deep down they know where they are milking from you, that’s exactly what the casinos doe.

[Sim_card]

The house edge always win whether it's provably fair or not. You cannot beat the house hedge which is one of the reasons why I see provably fair as a marketing strategy even though, you confirm it from the seed. Just gamble for fun in a reputable casino and forget about any worries.

[Findingnemo]

I am not quite sure about the possible manipulation when we can find that the game is provably fair because it ensures the results are random, so what can be done?

Not every game in a casino can be verified, most of the games are coming from gaming aggregator who are the sole responsibility for the games and the results, casino only manages the payouts based on the results.