Can Provably Fair games still be rigged?

[stadus]

That's a new knowledge to me. I though game providers are the one owning those games since there are games that have their names at the intro before you play a game. For long now, I though game provides have their own developers and making these games for the company and providing it to casinos.

Can anyone confirm this, It's new to me actually.

Maybe on some providers, but what I know is that game providers like Pragmatic Play, Evolution and Hacksaw are the ones who actually create and license their games. Since these are already big and established game providers, I think this is a more reliable answer compared to just assuming that there is a 3rd party.

https://www.pragmaticplay.com/en/about-us/

We supply player-favourite content to online casino operators in regulated markets across the globe.

[purple_sparkles]

I am not quite sure about the possible manipulation when we can find that the game is provably fair because it ensures the results are random, so what can be done?

Not every game in a casino can be verified, most of the games are coming from gaming aggregator who are the sole responsibility for the games and the results, casino only manages the payouts based on the results.

You mean game providers right?
Game developers are the ones responsible for casino games and the game providers handles their distribution.

Many people don't know this, that game providers are the middle men between the developers and the casinos, they are the ones who do the testing too, and then make sure they are accessible.

I think out of the box all those games are made in such a way that casinos will be a step or two ahead of gamblers, this is something that even guarantees the payment of these providers.

That's a new knowledge to me. I though game providers are the one owning those games since there are games that have their names at the intro before you play a game. For long now, I though game provides have their own developers and making these games for the company and providing it to casinos.

Can anyone confirm this, It's new to me actually.

I can’t say this with 100% certainty, but there are definitely templates for creating different types of gambling games specifically for casinos. They need to be intuitive and also familiar to players, because if someone sees something completely new and unfamiliar, they will most likely leave. People are naturally lazy, tend to stick to what they know, and generally don’t like having to figure out something new, especially when it’s something that requires them to put their own money into it.

[CryptoBuds]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.
I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

What I have been thinking for a while now, what would happen if any casino had already generated millions or billions of Server Seed? They can then know their possible outcome, right?

When we input Client Seed or Bet Amount, the site can offer us a Server Seed hash as the default Client Seed pattern, which will make them more profitable in long run!

If that happen, this will match the hash and pass verification but the seed selection will not be neutral.

[Dogedegen]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

If a game can be rigged in some way, why would you call it provably fair? If someone defines provably fair for himself or even a whole industry to mean some things, that does not mean that it is actually that. Only if the game is not possible to be rigged at all can you call it provably fair, everything else is marketing or fraud. From what I have seen in the industry in recent years, often the provably fair is used as marketing term for valid cryptography but that is not the same as having a game that can't be rigged or manipulated. When you talk about the hash in a game usually it is to prove the integrity of some value, but it does not say anything about the whole process that is behind the game or the algorithm. I do not know really of any casino that actually implements enough transparency and validation of their games that it could be called really provably fair.

But for this I also blame the users because they are not demanding improvements on these things, so they keep letting the casinos slide. Because of this the industry standard that we have now is just the basic seed and cash setup, but the claim that this makes it provably fair is an exaggeration.

[Findingnemo]

That's a new knowledge to me. I though game providers are the one owning those games since there are games that have their names at the intro before you play a game. For long now, I though game provides have their own developers and making these games for the company and providing it to casinos.

Can anyone confirm this, It's new to me actually.

Maybe on some providers, but what I know is that game providers like Pragmatic Play, Evolution and Hacksaw are the ones who actually create and license their games. Since these are already big and established game providers, I think this is a more reliable answer compared to just assuming that there is a 3rd party.

https://www.pragmaticplay.com/en/about-us/

We supply player-favourite content to online casino operators in regulated markets across the globe.

There are two categories like gaming providers and gaming aggregators, one who creates their own games and license them and the other one act as the middle men between the developers and the casino but middlemen got the responsibility of fairness and they are the one who have access to the source code if I am not wrong.

[sompitonov]

What I have been thinking for a while now, what would happen if any casino had already generated millions or billions of Server Seed? They can then know their possible outcome, right?

When we input Client Seed or Bet Amount, the site can offer us a Server Seed hash as the default Client Seed pattern, which will make them more profitable in long run!

If that happen, this will match the hash and pass verification but the seed selection will not be neutral.

Perhaps in this case, it's necessary to consider only those honest casinos with 24-word seed words instead of 12, but that's just my guess and an attempt to be less vulnerable. In any case, I've long been accustomed to playing at traditional casinos, and while I try to avoid such super-honest casinos, perhaps the time hasn't come for me yet. Furthermore, if casinos start to portray themselves as mega-honest, they should live up to that claim, and players should be more careful when deciding to play there.

[Hispo]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.
I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

What I have been thinking for a while now, what would happen if any casino had already generated millions or billions of Server Seed? They can then know their possible outcome, right?

When we input Client Seed or Bet Amount, the site can offer us a Server Seed hash as the default Client Seed pattern, which will make them more profitable in long run!

If that happen, this will match the hash and pass verification but the seed selection will not be neutral.

I think you are not aware of the huge amount of computing power a casino would need to have at their disposal in order to pull that off in a massive scale.
They would need to generate a pair of seed and then simulate them thousands of times and then discard them and take a new pair, so they can simulate them and so on, until a pair they like is reached... It is not doable when there are thousands of gamblers at the same time and giving everyone the same seed would be easily spotted.
That is why anyone also have the option to use their own seed, which is combined with the casino seed.

Keep in mind casinos do not need to do all that in order to be profitable in the long term, they already tell up upfront they have a slight advantage against you and they are going indeed profit from you.

[Myleschetty]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

That's right. In online cryptocurrency gambling, provably fair is simply seen as a good standard. However, some players are unaware that this does not mean the games cannot be manipulated because provably fair means the player can confirm the game's fairness using the published cryptographic seed, and the game can be manipulated if the game seed code is not fairly randomly generated or uses predictable seeds. I occasionally favor games from reliable providers because of this.

[SirLancelot]

Is there even anything as provably fair game as regards the casino’s? I really doubt. I’m a believer that everything about casinos is built based on randomness,I suppose that’s the fairness you’re referring to, and that’s why winnings happen. However I find it difficult to balance my belief with idea that the casinos are built in such away the outcome favours the house always.
With this I don’t think there is any form of manipulation if we’re agreeing that everything is based on randomness but I’m open to you guys point of views.

I would assume that what the topic in general is talking about is the fact that some places say they are provably fair, but they are not. Which does happen in the world of casinos, of course. One doom of the crypto casino world has been the fact that we started with provably fair, and it was actually provably fair, but then it grew so much that people are now playing on games that don't even claim that they are provably fair; you just have to trust the casino, and half of the provably fair ones are not even provably fair.

[Awaklara]

However, some players are unaware that this does not mean the games cannot be manipulated because provably fair means the player can confirm the game's fairness using the published cryptographic seed,

I guess gamblers are not unaware that games are free from manipulation, but not many gamblers care about that. I’m sure most gamblers just choose the games they like at casinos that are considered reputable. They play and successfully make withdrawals, and that’s enough for most gamblers.

[lionheart78]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Yes, I also think that games that are provably fair game can still be manipulated. Provably fair game tool only checks the result if it is unchanged from the server.  In short it only check whether the result is modified or not by the operator.

Outside of that, it does not check whether the game complies with the advertised RTP or odds.  So even if we can verify the result of the game, we still cannot know if the game settings itself is modified for the operator's advantage.

[Versatile_choice]

On a norms, a provably fair casino cannot be manipulated. but with the way things are going now I can't trust a casino with my full chest just as most casinos claims that they are non KYC casino but at some point they start requesting for KYC details.

So everything has been turned upside down, so for that reason I would Say that a provably fair casino can still be manipulated just as those casinos who claims they are non KYC changed overnight. But I believe that we still have provably fair casino but you rarely get the one that cannot be manipulated.

[Dogedegen]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

The rigging is not from the seed or the hash or the statement fairness. The rigging comes from the game (house edge). If there is no rigging, they won't make profit and the probably fair will have the highest win and the casino will be at the losing side. There is always manipulation in all the games. Even the no KYC statement is not 100% yes. There is a kind of KYC therefore probably fair is just a mere statement in the public but in behind there is something going on.

That is not true and you have missed the point of this discussion. A house edge is not any kind of rigging, it is an adjustment of the expected payout to create a margin for the business. If the house edge is stated to be 1% and the real house edge is after being tested 1% then the game is provably fair at least when it comes to its results. Rigging the house edge would mean using manipulations of some kind to create a house edge that does not match what is being promoted or advertised. A casino may claim that their house edge is only 1% but in reality it could be 2%, 3% or even more. That would be one of many examples of rigging the game, even if the seed and hashes are available. Many users here don't even know that there are many ways that the game can be manipulated, and they continue to chase the dream of getting rich with gambling..

On a norms, a provably fair casino cannot be manipulated. but with the way things are going now I can't trust a casino with my full chest just as most casinos claims that they are non KYC casino but at some point they start requesting for KYC details.

This is not true because what is considered provably fair in the current standards can be manipulated in many ways. Your statement is only true if you are talking about objectively provably fair where really there can be no manipulation, but I do not know if there is a casino that has this kind of system at all.

[Queen uloma]

I agree with that probably fair doesn’t necessarily mean that game can’t have manipulation. Even if the seed and hash is verified appropriately, there should still be other part of the system where players can’t fully have access to, and that’s where manipulation can hide.

For me, provably fair is a good step for transparency, but it’s not supposed to make a completely trust game wholeheartedly. One still need to understand how the system works and if casino on it own has control over other part of the process.

[Crypto Library]

Client seeds remain outside control of the casino, so in all likely chance, the games are provably fair and not being rigged, however this does not mean that they can never be rigged. With more and more casinos coming up everyday the people who are silently verifying the games and calling out any bad actors to make sure only the legitimate casinos survive need to applauded.

This math is the closest we can get to getting a fair game.

Still if one does not feel comfortable playing on a specific site, they should move away from it and not play with suspicion on their mind.

Here I wanted to say that games in a casino that claim to be provably fair don't mean that the players will win; it's all about their luck. There are also many gamblers who think of this fair games issue as if it were there, they should have won, or they even expect the issue to be such that their excess losses are only due to the games being rigged.

But in my personal point of view, that if a casino seed and the client seed were there, then there is no possibility that the game is rigged but the others parts are depends on the casino. At the end of the day, gambling is for fun if a person is uncomfortable with the result, then he can change the gamlbing platform and if that doesn't work, then he may shouldn't gambling.

[GiftedMAN]

On a norms, a provably fair casino cannot be manipulated. but with the way things are going now I can't trust a casino with my full chest just as most casinos claims that they are non KYC casino but at some point they start requesting for KYC details.

So everything has been turned upside down, so for that reason I would Say that a provably fair casino can still be manipulated just as those casinos who claims they are non KYC changed overnight. But I believe that we still have provably fair casino but you rarely get the one that cannot be manipulated.

Some casinos still maintain their stands despite what is going on in some casinos though we have seen the cases where some casinos change their rules just to favour their business and frustrate the efforts of their customers but the genuine ones will not be that bad to go against their rules if they say they are non kyc casinos. A casino that chooses to be fair will remain fair unless they are being manipulated but when they do not change overnight you will see the level of customers they would be attracting because they choose to remain who they are and not change when they have good numbers of customers.

[Orpichukwu]

I do not really see that there is no possibility to what the OP outrightly said about.
Nowadays I strongly believe that casino or gambling site to make sure they do whatever they felt like, so that they could be on more profits where they would say they are probably fair and at last they are not what they proves to be.
I am not much diversed into much of how casinos works at the backend.

How they work on the backend won’t be easy to understand unless you have deep knowledge about everything or know how code works. This trust issue to confirm a game result through seed is going to push you to trust only your old casino, which you are using at least to some extent. You have been enjoying a satisfying service until there is one who finds out they are cheating. All these new casinos which use KYC and probably fair to promote their service will have to rethink.

[promise444c5]

~

You mean game providers right?
Game developers are the ones responsible for casino games and the game providers handles their distribution.

Many people don't know this, that game providers are the middle men between the developers and the casinos, they are the ones who do the testing too, and then make sure they are accessible.
[edited out]

That's a new knowledge to me. I though game providers are the one owning those games since there are games that have their names at the intro before you play a game.
~snip

I can’t say this with 100% certainty, but there are definitely templates for creating different types of gambling games specifically for casinos.

Although that’s not what he’s asking..  but providers can use some part of components from their existing games  they own in or to create a new game, all needed is just slight modifications to what they want.

@ abel1337 yes, providers can serve as middle man but this are generally classified as Aggregators..

The real provider do have their own devs that create  games  and they can decide to provide it directly to Casinos  and Aggregators. It’s left to Casinos to choose which they want

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

However, some players are unaware that this does not mean the games cannot be manipulated because provably fair means the player can confirm the game's fairness using the published cryptographic seed,

I guess gamblers are not unaware that games are free from manipulation, but not many gamblers care about that. I’m sure most gamblers just choose the games they like at casinos that are considered reputable. They play and successfully make withdrawals, and that’s enough for most gamblers.

As long as the player can enjoy every benefits from using a reputable casino for gambling, they wouldn't bother to got disturbed off weather they are operating a provably fear game or not, gambling should not be a one-way direction to us, enjoy to gamble and play your desired game without putting pressure on yourself to know whether a particular casino operate a provable fair game or not.