Can Provably Fair games still be rigged?

[Lida93]

I guess gamblers are not unaware that games are free from manipulation, but not many gamblers care about that. I’m sure most gamblers just choose the games they like at casinos that are considered reputable. They play and successfully make withdrawals, and that’s enough for most gamblers.

You are not wrong about that, but we also talk about fairness, especially when "probably fair" becomes a trend and some casinos make something that could be used to verify game results online, but I guess we just have to rely on our instincts and hope the casino treats us right.

Not all gamblers are aware of the mathematical part of the games how much more spending time to be doing all that calculations to find it a game is as fair as the casino claim it to be or it's just a market language for them to attract audience. It's a stress to go through every game, so some gamblers don't just bother about it but rely on reputation of the casino trusting that they would not wish to risk their reputation by doing otherwise.

[Natalim]

It's a stress to go through every game, so some gamblers don't just bother about it but rely on reputation of the casino trusting that they would not wish to risk their reputation by doing otherwise.

Its not really necessary that we are the ones who personally verify everything. If a casino has a lot of users, at least some of them will probably do the checking, especially those who are putting a lot of money at risk.

If they ever find out that the casino is cheating, that will be reported and it can badly damage the casino's reputation.

So I don't think a reputable casino would easily mess with that, because something they worked years to build could be destroyed in an instant.

[henmark]

On a norms, a provably fair casino cannot be manipulated. but with the way things are going now I can't trust a casino with my full chest just as most casinos claims that they are non KYC casino but at some point they start requesting for KYC details.

So everything has been turned upside down, so for that reason I would Say that a provably fair casino can still be manipulated just as those casinos who claims they are non KYC changed overnight. But I believe that we still have provably fair casino but you rarely get the one that cannot be manipulated.

Some casinos still maintain their stands despite what is going on in some casinos though we have seen the cases where some casinos change their rules just to favour their business and frustrate the efforts of their customers but the genuine ones will not be that bad to go against their rules if they say they are non kyc casinos. A casino that chooses to be fair will remain fair unless they are being manipulated but when they do not change overnight you will see the level of customers they would be attracting because they choose to remain who they are and not change when they have good numbers of customers.

Some casinos figured out a while ago that they can scam without being scammers. Which is just making sure that the games are not rigged, but favouring the casino a lot more, and that means if people are willing to play the games themselves, then it is consent: the player consents to playing a game that favours the casino, and that means the casino doesn't have to do any scamming at all; they would make money no matter what. How many people do you think really check the house edge of a slot game?

I can tell you that not many; if you make it 10% or more, people will not even know, so just offer them some great bonuses to start, and they will all eat it up and go play your slots instead of a 1% house edge game somewhere else.

[Lida93]

It's a stress to go through every game, so some gamblers don't just bother about it but rely on reputation of the casino trusting that they would not wish to risk their reputation by doing otherwise.

Its not really necessary that we are the ones who personally verify everything. If a casino has a lot of users, at least some of them will probably do the checking, especially those who are putting a lot of money at risk.

There's this wise adage saying that "a community goat usually dies of hunger because every community member is assuming that the next person may have gone to feed the goat".

Anyone can personally do the checking if they do care to, if we all start to think that some users may have checked it already then we may get to a point of having things go in the path of the adage I gave above. It's not really about what you're spending to gamble even though it's a lot of the times done by those who risk more.

If they ever find out that the casino is cheating, that will be reported and it can badly damage the casino's reputation.

So I don't think a reputable casino would easily mess with that, because something they worked years to build could be destroyed in an instant.

Yeah, no renowned casino with a good reputation will want to rob it into the mud.

[Webutxo]

Not all gamblers are aware of the mathematical part of the games how much more spending time to be doing all that calculations to find it a game is as fair as the casino claim it to be or it's just a market language for them to attract audience. It's a stress to go through every game, so some gamblers don't just bother about it but rely on reputation of the casino trusting that they would not wish to risk their reputation by doing otherwise.

What I know about gambling is that many people don't even bother to do background check on casino, they don't even check the reviews. They just look around people that are using the casino, once they see that they have reputation, people don't complain about their service, withdrawals are not complicated, they don't make you wait for long before you get your money and bet are settled instantly, they go all in and the more they get satisfied, the more they continue to be loyal players.

As long as you can't prove that a casino is probably fair, just do what you can to win. If you notice that within you the casino is manipulative, you can leave the casino and go elsewhere where you think they are fair but note that there is no casino that is too transparent with their service. You can be satisfied with the service but another person might not be satisfied with them.

[Dareo]

What I know about gambling is that many people don't even bother to do background check on casino, they don't even check the reviews. They just look around people that are using the casino, once they see that they have reputation, people don't complain about their service, withdrawals are not complicated, they don't make you wait for long before you get your money and bet are settled instantly, they go all in and the more they get satisfied, the more they continue to be loyal players.

Reputation and mathematical fairness are not the same thing. Because a casino may offer fast withdrawals and good customer service, but the house edge of the game may still be against the player. But with a Provably fair system, at least there is an opportunity to verify the outcome of a specific game later.

As long as you can't prove that a casino is probably fair, just do what you can to win. If you notice that within you the casino is manipulative, you can leave the casino and go elsewhere where you think they are fair but note that there is no casino that is too transparent with their service. You can be satisfied with the service but another person might not be satisfied with them.

If you can't understand whether a casino is fair or not, I would say that it is more beneficial to test with a small amount first than just trying to win. Rules, and provably fair verification can be seen. Because even if there is a good reputation, the algorithms of all games are not the same.

[Fortify]

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

I remembered reading a thread recently about a casino that claimed to be "provably fair" but it was engineered in such a way that they actually had more control over the outcome than claimed. Tried to find the thread again with no success, however I did stumble across a thread from earlier in the year which discusses this point and makes the claim that certain casinos are not verifiable. Whether this is true or they may have changed to better align with provably fair methodology I'm not quite sure. The whole idea is that it's designed to build trust with customers and instill a kind of "third party auditing" ability to make sure there is no interference, but if it's not true then it shows one of two things: 1) the casino is fundamentally dishonest and should be avoided entirely 2) they are so incompetent that they left a gap in their logic when applying provably fair, also to be avoided.

Casinos with false provably fair games:
Roobet.com: Does not give the server seed hash before game starts. Customer support seems to be a stupid answering robot machine when the subject is brought.
Metawin.com: The code used to verify the results is no where to be found. In addition, server seed hash seems to change after game starts. 3 tickets created on the subject, 3 closed. No moderator knows where that mysterious code is hidden nor why the server seed hash has changed for my bets.
Wild.io: the system forces the player to choose client seed before server seed is chosen. Customer support says no it’s the contrary but then stops responding when shown evidence or asked to try it themselves
Bitstarz.com: Same issue as wild.io
Rollbit.com: No server seed hash before game starts (last seen about a year ago). Their NFT game can be rigged with last minute house bot bets in the first milliseconds the 50th eth block hash is known. When asking why not stop bets 1 or 2 eth blocks before result is out, moderators have some stupid answers.
Betfury.com: The process is respected, but the way results are calculated is no where to be found. Player thus cannot verify any bet

[Zadicar]

I guess gamblers are not unaware that games are free from manipulation, but not many gamblers care about that. I’m sure most gamblers just choose the games they like at casinos that are considered reputable. They play and successfully make withdrawals, and that’s enough for most gamblers.

You are not wrong about that, but we also talk about fairness, especially when "probably fair" becomes a trend and some casinos make something that could be used to verify game results online, but I guess we just have to rely on our instincts and hope the casino treats us right.

Not all gamblers are aware of the mathematical part of the games how much more spending time to be doing all that calculations to find it a game is as fair as the casino claim it to be or it's just a market language for them to attract audience. It's a stress to go through every game, so some gamblers don't just bother about it but rely on reputation of the casino trusting that they would not wish to risk their reputation by doing otherwise.

I agree with this on which 99% of gamblers would definitely not care up that much on trying out to check those hashes in regarding about provably fair and just simply play into those sites or platforms on which they have seen that its been played by most gamblers then that alone would already be a solid indication that the site is legit and credible when it comes to fairness on which i could say that im doing up the same and thats why i dont mind up that much about checking fairness but rather i would rather go for those reputable sites and having those kind of way on my criteria whether i should play on the site or not.

[Texac]

It's a stress to go through every game, so some gamblers don't just bother about it but rely on reputation of the casino trusting that they would not wish to risk their reputation by doing otherwise.

Its not really necessary that we are the ones who personally verify everything. If a casino has a lot of users, at least some of them will probably do the checking, especially those who are putting a lot of money at risk.
If they ever find out that the casino is cheating, that will be reported and it can badly damage the casino's reputation.

I think if any casino has been operating for many years and has built good reputation then deliberately manipulating result would really be huge risk for them.
And you are right that there is really no need for every player to personally verify every single round. Most people will never do that, at least i am not. But it is enough to have small group of technically knowledgeable player checking result. Especially those who play with large amount of money and do these check regularly. If there really is some kind of systematic manipulation in provably fair system then sooner or later someone may notice something that doesn't add up and publish evidence.

Anyway, good reputation reduces chances of cheating but it doesn't make it impossible. It's the combination of reputation and ability to independently verify our result that makes provably fair really useful. Even if I personally never check anything but any other player can do it is already an additional reason for casino not to try anything shady.

[Dogedegen]

Some casinos figured out a while ago that they can scam without being scammers. Which is just making sure that the games are not rigged, but favouring the casino a lot more, and that means if people are willing to play the games themselves, then it is consent: the player consents to playing a game that favours the casino, and that means the casino doesn't have to do any scamming at all; they would make money no matter what. How many people do you think really check the house edge of a slot game?

I can tell you that not many; if you make it 10% or more, people will not even know, so just offer them some great bonuses to start, and they will all eat it up and go play your slots instead of a 1% house edge game somewhere else.

I don't understand why so many people keep twisting words, and using them in the wrong way. If the games are favoring the casino more than it is stated, then the game is rigged and it is a scam. I have no idea how you are trying to play fraud as something normal, and say that it is not rigging and scamming. If a casino advertises a house edge of 1% but the real house edge is 2% or even 3% then it is a rigged casino and run by scammers. There is no way to avoid that, you must read what the definitions of those words mean! The issue with house edge rigging which is basic is that if it is very small then it is also hard to prove, someone needs to play many games and collect data and run an analysis to even get some kind of evidence that it is truly rigged. Very few players would even try to test a casino this way, and it costs money too to try this. I think there was a thread not long ago about some casino here in which the user played many games and discovered that they have a higher edge than they should..

[Myleschetty]

However, some players are unaware that this does not mean the games cannot be manipulated because provably fair means the player can confirm the game's fairness using the published cryptographic seed,

I guess gamblers are not unaware that games are free from manipulation, but not many gamblers care about that. I’m sure most gamblers just choose the games they like at casinos that are considered reputable. They play and successfully make withdrawals, and that’s enough for most gamblers.

As long as the player can enjoy every benefits from using a reputable casino for gambling, they wouldn't bother to got disturbed off weather they are operating a provably fear game or not, gambling should not be a one-way direction to us, enjoy to gamble and play your desired game without putting pressure on yourself to know whether a particular casino operate a provable fair game or not.

Let's get things right here.
1. When a casino is considered reputable, it indicates that it is trustworthy, honest, and well-known for providing quality gaming services. Therefore, it doesn't mean gamblers dont care about their interest when blindly using such a casino.

2. I don't see any gamblers who don't like winning or won't care about possible game manipulation when things don't feel right with the gaming outcome of the casino they are using.

[taufik123]

I think if any casino has been operating for many years and has built good reputation then deliberately manipulating result would really be huge risk for them.
-snip-

Casinos with big names that have built branding and customer trust for years must certainly be maintained.
They will not commit a foolish act by performing manipulations that will harm the player and the casino itself.

There are many examples of casino cases that can still survive with various sour scam issues and such, but they deal with it well enough that the reputation of the casino still remains the best.

As happened with Duelbits some time ago, about the locking of funds was done, not without reason,
and in the end the owner of Duelbits gave a very good response and there were a few misunderstandings and problems solved very well.

Even the user was compensated $5000, this is the biggest in my opinion.
And at the same time, Duelbits' reputation became more and more trusted.

Hello,

I want to start by apologising for the inconvenience you’ve experienced.

I’m Joe, the founder of Duelbits. I’ve personally looked into this matter and resolved it. We’ve added an extra $5,000 balance to your account as a gesture of goodwill for the hassle caused, and I’ve refunded the withdrawal that wasn’t processed ($30,560).

This was a significant error on our side (with some involvement from the provider). I’m truly sorry for the frustration this has caused.

My thinking was that the best approach would be to refund the funds directly to your account rather than re-initiate the withdrawal, in case you no longer wish to use the wallet or prefer to handle it differently.

The $5,000 is a no-strings-attached bonus. If you’d rather not continue with Duelbits—which is completely understandable—you’re free to withdraw the full $35,560 and request account closure at any time.

I hope the additional $5,000 helps turn a frustrating situation into something a little better.

Best regards,
Joe
Founder, Duelbits

[Ojima-ojo]

Some casinos figured out a while ago that they can scam without being scammers. Which is just making sure that the games are not rigged, but favouring the casino a lot more, and that means if people are willing to play the games themselves, then it is consent: the player consents to playing a game that favours the casino, and that means the casino doesn't have to do any scamming at all; they would make money no matter what. How many people do you think really check the house edge of a slot game?

I can tell you that not many; if you make it 10% or more, people will not even know, so just offer them some great bonuses to start, and they will all eat it up and go play your slots instead of a 1% house edge game somewhere else.

I don't understand why so many people keep twisting words, and using them in the wrong way. If the games are favoring the casino more than it is stated, then the game is rigged and it is a scam. I have no idea how you are trying to play fraud as something normal, and say that it is not rigging and scamming. If a casino advertises a house edge of 1% but the real house edge is 2% or even 3% then it is a rigged casino and run by scammers. There is no way to avoid that, you must read what the definitions of those words mean! The issue with house edge rigging which is basic is that if it is very small then it is also hard to prove, someone needs to play many games and collect data and run an analysis to even get some kind of evidence that it is truly rigged. Very few players would even try to test a casino this way, and it costs money too to try this. I think there was a thread not long ago about some casino here in which the user played many games and discovered that they have a higher edge than they should..

Don't be decieved, in every market, there is always the bad actors, there is likelihood that a few casinos operators even the notable one's will rigged their probability fairness in many ways as it open to them, and sure since the most probably fair games are in house games, scammers running the casino can manipulate the entire game outcome and making it look outward as a free fair games settlements.

[MRY]

Don't be decieved, in every market, there is always the bad actors, there is likelihood that a few casinos operators even the notable one's will rigged their probability fairness in many ways as it open to them, and sure since the most probably fair games are in house games, scammers running the casino can manipulate the entire game outcome and making it look outward as a free fair games settlements.

It's true that independent ownership of program code opens up opportunities for misuse of probability calculations to benefit platform managers. The simplicity with which it is possible to change internal algorithms enables, without appearing illegitimate, unscrupulous people to do what they want to, namely, to play with the arbitrarily changed win percentages of different players.

Determining spin results through closed system limits transparency of the behind the scenes randomization process. To guarantee the authenticity of the mechanics of the games and avoid manipulation of participants, it is important to get certified by independent testing laboratories.

[Cantsay]

There would be ways to make it so that the outcomes of the games would mostly favour the house. Even if it is "provably fair", you would be able to verify the game, but then the algorithm that determines the result would be in favour of the casino.

I really don't know how the whole thing works, but if provably fair has anything to do with the way game results are determined, then people would have been winning big in those casinos. But the fact that it still favours the company means that it is just for show, or just to show that it is the actual game but the whole behind the scenes is still obscured from the public.

[PERtua]

Some casinos figured out a while ago that they can scam without being scammers. Which is just making sure that the games are not rigged, but favouring the casino a lot more, and that means if people are willing to play the games themselves, then it is consent: the player consents to playing a game that favours the casino, and that means the casino doesn't have to do any scamming at all; they would make money no matter what. How many people do you think really check the house edge of a slot game?

I can tell you that not many; if you make it 10% or more, people will not even know, so just offer them some great bonuses to start, and they will all eat it up and go play your slots instead of a 1% house edge game somewhere else.

I don't understand why so many people keep twisting words, and using them in the wrong way. If the games are favoring the casino more than it is stated, then the game is rigged and it is a scam. I have no idea how you are trying to play fraud as something normal, and say that it is not rigging and scamming. If a casino advertises a house edge of 1% but the real house edge is 2% or even 3% then it is a rigged casino and run by scammers. There is no way to avoid that, you must read what the definitions of those words mean! The issue with house edge rigging which is basic is that if it is very small then it is also hard to prove, someone needs to play many games and collect data and run an analysis to even get some kind of evidence that it is truly rigged. Very few players would even try to test a casino this way, and it costs money too to try this. I think there was a thread not long ago about some casino here in which the user played many games and discovered that they have a higher edge than they should..

There's a big difference between a provably fair game and a game that has a fair house edge, I agree. Provably fair technology can help to demonstrate that the results were not manipulated in the back end. But it does not necessarily mean the game is low or reasonable house edge. When a casino advertises a house edge of 5% and the game's house edge is known to be that amount, the players are taking a risk of being mathematically down. The issue begins when the odds advertised, RTP or house edge is not what it claims to be. If so, the game may be provably fair. But the entire game is potentially misleading. Players should not depend on the provably fair claim and verify the true RTP, house edge, rules and payouts before playing.

[yhiaali3]

There would be ways to make it so that the outcomes of the games would mostly favour the house. Even if it is "provably fair", you would be able to verify the game, but then the algorithm that determines the result would be in favour of the casino.

I really don't know how the whole thing works, but if provably fair has anything to do with the way game results are determined, then people would have been winning big in those casinos. But the fact that it still favours the company means that it is just for show, or just to show that it is the actual game but the whole behind the scenes is still obscured from the public.

Unfortunately, some casinos claim to be fair, but they either don't provide the necessary testing tools or use an inadequate system. In my opinion, reliable external testing tools should be made available.

Even if the game is fair, people will not win millions because certain fairness does not change the laws of probability. That is, if you have a game: the percentage of winning is 49%, the percentage of losing is 51%, even if the result is 100% fair, you will lose in the long run.

[red4slash]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

That's right, because in this case provably fair and the seed can be verified will only guarantee that the results of the game cannot be changed when the bet has been made but this does not guarantee anything because there are still gaps that can be tricked here including from the system and seed before the bet is made.

So in this case there is nothing that cannot be included in manipulation like this, we will never know but here the important point we have to do is look for sites that do have good enough trust because at least this can minimize us from several things including manipulation like this.
This is not eliminating but minimizing especially we will never know especially most gamblers sometimes do not care about how the system in gambling works because of the complexity of the algorithm which will indeed be impossible for ordinary people to understand so that things like this sometimes become quite taboo for ordinary gamblers.

[TheUltraElite]

Don't be decieved, in every market, there is always the bad actors, there is likelihood that a few casinos operators even the notable one's will rigged their probability fairness in many ways as it open to them, and sure since the most probably fair games are in house games, scammers running the casino can manipulate the entire game outcome and making it look outward as a free fair games settlements.

Its very simple to verify the games outcome though, just that you have to reveal the server seed and nonce and add to it the client seed to see the fairness of the previous games. If they allow these things to be revealed and you can put that inside a third party verifier, you are good to go with that site.

Most people dont understand this process and hence a confusion starts to form.

Again you might not be able to verify old bets like this, in case you should be cautious before using it. Sites that dont reveal the client seed are bad actors indeed.

[angrybirdy]

There would be ways to make it so that the outcomes of the games would mostly favour the house. Even if it is "provably fair", you would be able to verify the game, but then the algorithm that determines the result would be in favour of the casino.

I really don't know how the whole thing works, but if provably fair has anything to do with the way game results are determined, then people would have been winning big in those casinos. But the fact that it still favours the company means that it is just for show, or just to show that it is the actual game but the whole behind the scenes is still obscured from the public.

Unfortunately, some casinos claim to be fair, but they either don't provide the necessary testing tools or use an inadequate system. In my opinion, reliable external testing tools should be made available.

Even if the game is fair, people will not win millions because certain fairness does not change the laws of probability. That is, if you have a game: the percentage of winning is 49%, the percentage of losing is 51%, even if the result is 100% fair, you will lose in the long run.

fairness and profitability are two different things and sometimes people forget about that. The game can be tested properly and still have a house edge, so the results can be true and honest but in the long run the math is still more on the casino side than the player...That’s why transparency is really important. players should be able to see and verify how the system works through trusted and independent testing, instead of just following whatever the casino says. Having a clear details about the game rules, odds, and how it was tested can help participants to understand better what they are actually getting into. at the end, being fair doesn’t mean everyone has the same chance to win a huge anount of money, It basically means the rules that are given are being followed and the results aren’t being changed or manipulated. Once players understand this, they can make more realistic choices instead of thinking that a fair game also means they are guaranteed to make money.