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Author Topic: Is selling drugs that are illegal in the US to US customers against forum rules?  (Read 2707 times)
RaggedMonk
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January 09, 2012, 11:10:56 PM
 #1

I am concerned about a thread because I think it exposes this forum to the risk of being seized and/or shut down by US government agencies.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.200

Their open discussion of shipping these drugs internationally is occurring.  Most users have not specified their location or which drugs they are purchasing, but I believe that there is evidence in this thread of illegal drug transactions beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think the thread should be closed for the safety and longevity of this forum. I don't think the thread provides a benefit to the community anywhere near proportionate to the risks and liabilities it adds.

Mods, why are you letting this illegal activity continue in your forum?

Flaxceed sells many drugs that legally can only be sold by a pharmacist to US customers:
Steroids, including Winstrol (Controlled in US)
Viagra (restricted in US)
Xanax generic (Scheduled in US)
... among other things

List of controlled substances in US:
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/c_cs_alpha.pdf

List of users who claim to have received drugs from flaxceed:
kcmastrpc - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg509543#msg509543 - Located in Crossville, TN (http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=76107)
CryptoKid - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg552068#msg552068
RandyFolds - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg511437#msg511437 - American (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg700018#msg700018)
Reckman - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg561888#msg561888
CornedBeefHash - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg592216#msg592216 - Profile indicates located in San Francisco, received many orders
thisisgil - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg605322#msg605322 - Received in UK
conspirosphere.tk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg606485#msg606485
dryden - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg637564#msg637564

Claimed to have correspond at least:
gamer4156 - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24196.msg578185#msg578185 - Asked about shipping to the US
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RandyFolds
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January 09, 2012, 11:57:45 PM
 #2

Where is that evidence of 'illegal drug transactions beyond a reasonable doubt'? You seem to have quite a bone to pick with flaxceed, but you lack a leg to stand on. What does a list of people who have interacted with him show, other than the fact that they interacted with flaxceed? Even if they did make a purchase, you have no knowledge of the actual item purchased, and thus have no clue whether or not a crime was committed.

You also seem to have a fundamental lack of comprehension as to controlled and scheduled substances in the US.

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RaggedMonk
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January 10, 2012, 12:10:25 AM
 #3

You are right- Winstrol is controlled substance, not a scheduled substance.  Edited OP to reflect this.

I don't have any problem with flaxceed, or people who want to order drugs illegally to their jurisdictions.  That's between them and their respective governments.

Fundamentally, as far as I can tell, flaxceed has never made a legal sale to his (at least two) US customers. Without licenses it is not legal to sell the majority of his products in the US. I am no legal expert, but I do not see any products he is offering that are clearly legal for him to sell to US customers. Do you? Some of them are controlled substances, which if he has ever distributed these to US customers over this forum, the DEA could seize BitCoinTalk.

I think it is putting the forum in legal jeopardy.  It hurts the reputation and credibility of information in this forum if buying dick pills (or gel) is only two clicks away from announcements of legitimate bitcoin businesses.

This is the central hub of bitcoin communication, and it would be a shame to see it get shut down over something so frivolous. 

Randy, do/did you live outside of the US when you received products from flaxceed?  If not, what is your interpretation of how what you did was legal under US law?
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January 10, 2012, 12:33:01 AM
 #4

It is not, interestingly enough, illegal to discuss the sale of controlled substances at any level in the United States. Therefore, while you intentions are pure, your ethical groundwork is flawed. Threads here have featured proposed drug sales, assault, necrophilia, murder, unregulated securities exchange, customs duties and tax avoidance, overthrow of various governments, physical violence towards a vast number of individuals, and rape amongst a host of topics legal, illegal and sometimes repugnant. All of these subjects are against the law in the US, and in most other places too, but there is no proscription against the discussion.

Lacking any proof that any of the anonymous claims made here have ever happened, unless you are running around with a camera crew filming To Catch An Internet Generic Xanax Vendor, you probably won't ever have a valid reason to muzzle the conversation. Irrespective of how the discussion may violate your personal mores.

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RaggedMonk
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January 10, 2012, 12:49:40 AM
 #5

You clearly do not understand freedom of speech, because this does not qualify.  Flaxceed isn't just "discussing", he is offering, advertising, and selling.

The forum is clearly facilitating illegal drug transactions into the US right now. This is grounds to be seized/shut down. 

Is this forum hosted/managed by people in the US?  I assumed it was, if not maybe this isn't as much of a problem.
RandyFolds
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January 10, 2012, 01:14:06 AM
 #6

You are right- Winstrol is controlled substance, not a scheduled substance.  Edited OP to reflect this.

I don't have any problem with flaxceed, or people who want to order drugs illegally to their jurisdictions.  That's between them and their respective governments.

Fundamentally, as far as I can tell, flaxceed has never made a legal sale to his (at least two) US customers. Without licenses it is not legal to sell the majority of his products in the US. I am no legal expert, but I do not see any products he is offering that are clearly legal for him to sell to US customers. Do you? Some of them are controlled substances, which if he has ever distributed these to US customers over this forum, the DEA could seize BitCoinTalk.

I think it is putting the forum in legal jeopardy.  It hurts the reputation and credibility of information in this forum if buying dick pills (or gel) is only two clicks away from announcements of legitimate bitcoin businesses.

This is the central hub of bitcoin communication, and it would be a shame to see it get shut down over something so frivolous. 

Randy, do/did you live outside of the US when you received products from flaxceed?  If not, what is your interpretation of how what you did was legal under US law?

Who says I received products from flaxceed?

Sildafinil citrate (Viagra), which is on your list there as controlled, is not scheduled or controlled in the US. It is legal to possess without a valid medical prescription.

Clenbuterol is not controlled or scheduled by the US either, and with no approved medical use, you are free to import as much of it as you want and do what you will with it.

To top it off, the actual order and transactions are carried out outside of the forum, indemnifying them from any involvement in the matter. They are not facilitating any illegal drug transactions, if any even exist to begin with...there are quite a few users outside of the United States who can legally attain even the 'controlled' substances he is vending.

Irrespective of how the discussion may violate your personal mores.

Loup! Sentence fragment from one of the most eloquent authors on this forum? Come on, now!

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theymos
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January 10, 2012, 01:24:17 AM
 #7

It's against the rules to make trades that are not legal in both the seller's and buyer's countries. I'm not interested in figuring out legality of trades or investigating locations of members, though, so I only delete really obvious stuff.

Is this forum hosted/managed by people in the US?  I assumed it was, if not maybe this isn't as much of a problem.

It's in Japan.

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RaggedMonk
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January 10, 2012, 01:32:12 AM
 #8

It's against the rules to make trades that are not legal in both the seller's and buyer's countries. I'm not interested in figuring out legality of trades or investigating locations of members, though, so I only delete really obvious stuff.

Is this forum hosted/managed by people in the US?  I assumed it was, if not maybe this isn't as much of a problem.

It's in Japan.

Fair enough.  So long as you and the other mods don't think this is a liability.  I'd hate to see this forum disappear!
RaggedMonk
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January 10, 2012, 01:38:01 AM
 #9

Sildafinil citrate (Viagra), which is on your list there as controlled, is not scheduled or controlled in the US. It is legal to possess without a valid medical prescription.

Clenbuterol is not controlled or scheduled by the US either, and with no approved medical use, you are free to import as much of it as you want and do what you will with it.

I am under the impression that it would still be illegal for me (as a US citizen) to sell sildafinil to my neighbor (without being a pharmacist), am I mistaken?

I think you are right about Clenbuterol.  The fact that he is advertising it as a weight-loss aid and describing it as "amphetaminey" might raise some flags however.  Seeing as how you have experience ordering these things, I'll trust your judgement.
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January 10, 2012, 01:45:48 AM
 #10

It's against the rules to make trades that are not legal in both the seller's and buyer's countries. I'm not interested in figuring out legality of trades or investigating locations of members, though, so I only delete really obvious stuff.

Is this forum hosted/managed by people in the US?  I assumed it was, if not maybe this isn't as much of a problem.

It's in Japan.

Fair enough.  So long as you and the other mods don't think this is a liability.  I'd hate to see this forum disappear!

So, rather than click the little report button, you go internet detective and compile a list of everyone whom has interacted with flaxceed and suggest they are committing criminal acts? I resent your unfounded and uneducated accusations against me, the other members listed and the forum itself. You should remove them.

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January 10, 2012, 01:55:15 AM
 #11

Sildafinil citrate (Viagra), which is on your list there as controlled, is not scheduled or controlled in the US. It is legal to possess without a valid medical prescription.

Clenbuterol is not controlled or scheduled by the US either, and with no approved medical use, you are free to import as much of it as you want and do what you will with it.

I am under the impression that it would still be illegal for me (as a US citizen) to sell sildafinil to my neighbor (without being a pharmacist), am I mistaken?

I think you are right about Clenbuterol.  The fact that he is advertising it as a weight-loss aid and describing it as "amphetaminey" might raise some flags however.  Seeing as how you have experience ordering these things, I'll trust your judgement.

What experience do I have ordering them? I merely offered up some easily available information as to the US legality of two items that flaxceed is supplying.

Possessing and attaining are two very different things, as any lawyer can tell you. In Minnesota, you can possess up to 42.5 grams of dried cannabis flowers and only receive a civil infraction, but to attain those 42.5 grams in any manner is felonious trafficking. In California, you can possess up to 8 ounces of dried cannabis flowers and concentrates, but to manufacture or attain the concentrates is a felony. There are two prime examples for you. I am sure you can google up some more with your incredible internet sleuthing skillzors.

Yes, you would be committing a crime by transferring a prescription medication to your neighbor, just like it says up at the top of every prescription bottle. The substance is irrelevant, the crime lies in the unauthorized transfer. The same would apply if you were to give your child some leftover antibiotics that were prescribed to you.

On another note, caffeine could also be described as 'amphetaminey', perhaps you should rail against it for a while.

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January 10, 2012, 03:10:45 AM
 #12

It's in Japan.
Is Japan a name for a suburb of Dallas,TX?

Last 4 lines in a traceroute from a looking glass located in California are:

38 ms    38 ms    38 ms  ae6.dar02.sr01.dal05.networklayer.com [50.97.18.193]
40 ms    40 ms    41 ms  po2.fcr02.sr02.dal05.networklayer.com [173.192.118.141]
38 ms    38 ms    51 ms  184.173.95.158-static.reverse.softlayer.com [184.173.95.158]
38 ms    51 ms    38 ms  bitcointalk.org [50.97.137.52]

I also did a "tcpdump -ttt host bitcointalk.org" to verify that the actual TCP packets come back within about 40-50 ms.

I can imagine a virtual cable connection between the reverse-proxy and the actual server. But the TCP/IP response time would imply that that virtual cable goes through a wormhole connecting Dallas,TX with Japan.

Or maybe the actual forum server is mirrored between the USA and Japan using some virtual-machine migration technology?

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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January 10, 2012, 03:12:53 AM
 #13

It's hosted by MtGox, which is based in Japan. The actual server location doesn't really matter.

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RaggedMonk
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January 10, 2012, 03:44:40 AM
 #14


What experience do I have ordering them? I merely offered up some easily available information as to the US legality of two items that flaxceed is supplying.


I have been waiting to post a review for a bit because I wasn't sure how to proceed. I really wanted to give flaxceed a rave review, because he is a real, friendly and non-scammy merchant, but there are a few issues I have.

I ordered some Clenbuterol. While the transaction went smoothly and I did receive my goods (always a surprise with bitcoin), it was sent requiring signature confirmation, which is by no means the correct way to ship substances that fall in a legal grey area. I ended up having to pick up the package from the post office, against my better judgement. If this was silkroad or through escrow, I wouldn't have risked picking it up, as that error is on the sender.

As far as the actual package, it was very discrete and unremarkable and would raise no suspicions upon a casual inspection...but how was I to know that before I went in to the PO? I could have been walking in to pick up a bag spilling out pills on the counter.

Regarding the product, it seems to be what it says it is, as I am trembling like a leaf, but the box claims it is from a 'labaratory'(sic) in Switzerland. A quick look at their website and a google search of the lab's name brings up nothing to support the validity of the claim. Searching around some other sites, it appears it is from an underground lab in Thailand. There is no quality control or assay information available, but it is apparent that this drug from this manufacturer is very widely used, so I decided to trust it.

Overall, a success, but the signature confirmation thing has to go.

Regardless of whether it endangers the forum, you shouldn't publicly post that you are attaining drugs in this way if you aren't prepared for this information to be public.
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January 10, 2012, 03:49:59 AM
 #15

The actual server location doesn't really matter.
This is true so long as the warrants are issued and served correctly. There are well-known cases (Crydon, Core IP Networks, etc.) where the Texan law enforcement executed their warrants with utter disregard for the procedures.

Please make regular backup copies to some server outside of the USA.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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January 10, 2012, 06:46:59 AM
 #16


What experience do I have ordering them? I merely offered up some easily available information as to the US legality of two items that flaxceed is supplying.


I have been waiting to post a review for a bit because I wasn't sure how to proceed. I really wanted to give flaxceed a rave review, because he is a real, friendly and non-scammy merchant, but there are a few issues I have.

I ordered some Clenbuterol. While the transaction went smoothly and I did receive my goods (always a surprise with bitcoin), it was sent requiring signature confirmation, which is by no means the correct way to ship substances that fall in a legal grey area. I ended up having to pick up the package from the post office, against my better judgement. If this was silkroad or through escrow, I wouldn't have risked picking it up, as that error is on the sender.

As far as the actual package, it was very discrete and unremarkable and would raise no suspicions upon a casual inspection...but how was I to know that before I went in to the PO? I could have been walking in to pick up a bag spilling out pills on the counter.

Regarding the product, it seems to be what it says it is, as I am trembling like a leaf, but the box claims it is from a 'labaratory'(sic) in Switzerland. A quick look at their website and a google search of the lab's name brings up nothing to support the validity of the claim. Searching around some other sites, it appears it is from an underground lab in Thailand. There is no quality control or assay information available, but it is apparent that this drug from this manufacturer is very widely used, so I decided to trust it.

Overall, a success, but the signature confirmation thing has to go.

Regardless of whether it endangers the forum, you shouldn't publicly post that you are attaining drugs in this way if you aren't prepared for this information to be public.

Cool...I *maybe* attained a legal substance under an alias. I didn't recall posting it, but hey, quoted for posterity's sake. Call the internet police.

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January 10, 2012, 09:18:58 PM
 #17

Freedom frightens a lot of people.  Some folks live and die by rules- they live in a black and white world and have an obsessive inner need to quote rules and explain how they pertain to other citizens' conduct.  I would feel very strange about exposing myself on a public forum as one of these people but that's just me.  Maybe self-importance is considered some kind of twisted virtue by this type of person.

No, wait- this hero is trying to save the forum and bitcoin from the ogre.  That's his motivation.


//////////////////////////////////////////////
>>>>>>flaxceed@tormail.org<<<<<<
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


>>>  NOTE:  This is a new email address.  It is now tormail.org, and no longer tormail.net!  <<<

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January 10, 2012, 09:39:21 PM
 #18

It's hosted by MtGox, which is based in Japan. The actual server location doesn't really matter.

Until SOPA passes, it does matter. I pay approximately 10x more that I would for a comparable service in the US to host my website in Canada. I also use a .CA domain name because the Department of Homeland security has been known the seize .com and .org/net domain names.

Servers hosted in the US are also subject to the US Patriot Act. As far as I know, you are not allowed to tell us if law enforcement has requested server logs. Most of the information on this forum is intended to be public anyway, so I am not sure how much of a concern that is.


James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
RandyFolds
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January 10, 2012, 11:10:04 PM
 #19

Flaxceed is just scared because he knows he is losing business, and his customers are realizing how much of a liability it is to conduct illegal activities in public view.

I urge other forum members to be cautious about endorsing or giving testimonials about this "service". Several posters listed in the thread below have likely incriminated themselves in their legal jurisdiction.  If you are engaging in illegal activity, you should not discuss it in a public forum.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57379.msg683315#msg683315

Stay safe guys.

I cultivate exorbitant amounts of cannabis. I also manufacture methamphetamine, crack-cocaine and heroin in my basement, along with a drug of my own invention that I the schoolkids I sell it to like to call 'Blam'. I also traffic in russian prostitutes, both male and female and commit medicare fraud on a daily basis. And I'm gay. Call the internet police.

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LoupGaroux
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January 11, 2012, 04:56:43 AM
 #20

Flaxceed is just scared because he knows he is losing business, and his customers are realizing how much of a liability it is to conduct illegal activities in public view.

I urge other forum members to be cautious about endorsing or giving testimonials about this "service". Several posters listed in the thread below have likely incriminated themselves in their legal jurisdiction.  If you are engaging in illegal activity, you should not discuss it in a public forum.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57379.msg683315#msg683315

Stay safe guys.

I cultivate exorbitant amounts of cannabis. I also manufacture methamphetamine, crack-cocaine and heroin in my basement, along with a drug of my own invention that I the schoolkids I sell it to like to call 'Blam'. I also traffic in russian prostitutes, both male and female and commit medicare fraud on a daily basis. And I'm gay. Call the internet police.

Who wouldn't want to party with this maniac?

I have solicited to purchase fully automatic assault rifles by the container load online, and blood diamonds by the kilo, demanded Russian prostitutes in barter exchanges, aggressively encouraged suicide, and coached arson, all while actually having several online scammers get tattoos, brand themselves with satanic or just obscene symbols and waste tens of thousands of dollars traveling around the world to meet with me when I am actually continents away. (It's a very long story...) Most of this is fairly illegal in most jurisdictions. I caused a "college" in the UK to lose their certification, and to be shut down by having the Dean take naked pictures of himself which were posted in a blog, and forwarded to his wife back in Nigeria. I have participated in setting up honey trap "encryption" sites where I harvest scammers emails and log-ins so that their private email communications can be read, flagrantly abusing the TOS of Hotmail, Yahoo, Google and a ton of others. That is surely illegal.

Yet how would you prosecute me, or this site for hosting this admission? I am nothing more than a nickname here. There is nothing that would stand up to scrutiny in a Court that could link me to anything. I am just a nickname, and even if I was doxxed, all you would have is the character created for this particular bastard online, the actual real Lou P Garoux is a ghost.

As is the real Randy Folds, and all the other cast of characters.

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