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Author Topic: Here it comes  (Read 6109 times)
westkybitcoins
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January 14, 2012, 03:02:08 AM
 #41

If it's 2050, and pretty much the only means of electronic commerce is through bitcoin, you can believe I'm not going to balk that much at, say, a mandatory, capped transaction fee of 1% to ensure immediate processing as opposed to next-week processing through the "charity miners." It's either pay the fee or not do business.

Except that one miner will drop the minimum fees to 0.99% to get them all. Then the next miner will drop them to 0.98% etc.

In a normal market, this downward pressure on prices is countered by the production cost. But for bitcoin there is no minimum cost: the mining difficulty will drop until it is too low to provide any security.

I don't think that'll be the case.

There are already people who allow no-fee transactions to be included in their blocks. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone, somewhere in the future, will continue to allow this. But their presence doesn't (and won't) mean fee-required mining won't exist. Fee-less mining will never be universal, so relying on such "charity" will result in slower confirmations.

I think it'll operate more like retail outlets do today. Can't afford high fees, or don't care about wait times? Then you can hit the stores selling used clothes, or at worst, rely on actual charity from a mission. Want the latest, hottest fashion (with no wait times?) Then you need to pay up. These extremes, and everything in-between, exist in the retail world now, because different people have different needs. I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
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ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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eldentyrell
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January 14, 2012, 03:43:00 AM
 #42

There are already people who allow no-fee transactions to be included in their blocks.

It isn't the zero-fee transactions you have to worry about.  A miner who refuses to include those isn't losing anything.

It's the one-satoshi-transaction-fee transactions you have to worry about.  No rational miner would exclude them (unless the block size limit has been hit, which we can't count on happening).

Miners who reject one-satoshi-fee transactions are effectively donating money to miners that don't.  That is not a stable situation.  That which is not stable will not endure.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
westkybitcoins
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January 14, 2012, 03:55:13 AM
 #43

There are already people who allow no-fee transactions to be included in their blocks.

It isn't the zero-fee transactions you have to worry about.  A miner who refuses to include those isn't losing anything.

It's the one-satoshi-transaction-fee transactions you have to worry about.  No rational miner would exclude them (unless the block size limit has been hit, which we can't count on happening).

Miners who reject one-satoshi-fee transactions are effectively donating money to miners that don't.  That is not a stable situation.  That which is not stable will not endure.

Aren't there already miners who do this? I thought I heard one pool had a minimum fee requirement.

Even if not, I still don't see it being necessarily unstable. Even if one didn't want to set a minimum fee (and in the future, I can really see plenty of miners having a minimum,) one could still sort the pending transactions by fee amount rather than priority; smaller-fee transactions would still tend to take longer to confirm, so there would still be an incentive to pay higher fees to ensure rapid processing.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
ineededausername
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January 14, 2012, 03:57:59 AM
 #44

For those still listening to me, and I know you are few...
Alternate scenario seems to be active scenario now.  Target 5.8.
Get ready Smiley

(BFL)^2 < 0
Revalin
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165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g


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January 14, 2012, 04:00:30 AM
 #45

Sorry, you'll have to speak up.  I can't hear anything with all this bear fur in my ears.  Smiley

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Bitcoin is the Devil's way of teaching geeks economics.  --Revalin 165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
rampone
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dafq is goin on


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January 14, 2012, 04:05:50 AM
 #46

LukeDJr aka "mining führer" does only include transactions with fee with eligius already afaik. correct me, if i am wrong. and for the transaction fees. Either bitcoin is going bananas and widely used (lets say a thousandtimes more transactions -> should be about 50 btc average as i gues average fees are now about 0.05btc? -> therefore no problem, or there will not be a problem to worry about, as no bitcoin no more...

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January 14, 2012, 04:06:13 AM
 #47

For those still listening to me, and I know you are few...
Alternate scenario seems to be active scenario now.  Target 5.8.
Get ready Smiley

I am going to watch for this very closely. I had my support target at $6.25.
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January 14, 2012, 04:09:51 AM
 #48

By the way everyone, I don't recommend selling/shorting just yet.  Hold until we break 6.2 or 6.

6.2: is a .2 support
6: long-term uptrend.

We had a strong support up at 6.7 with the medium-term trendline.  I wanted to post something but didn't feel confident enough.  I should have.

(BFL)^2 < 0
bb113
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January 14, 2012, 04:11:43 AM
 #49

Bet against your gut feeling, but keep in mind so is everyone else. Also keep in mind everyone else knows everyone else is doing this. Good luck.
ineededausername
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January 14, 2012, 04:31:08 AM
 #50

We have confirmation... PSAR is bearish for the first time ever since the end of November. 
During a bear market, this means a 33-50% plunge.  During a bull market, it might mean a break of the major long-term trendline and a "bear rally" down to 5.5. 
Since this is still a long-term bull market, this is a blip in the radar, but it is important not to be caught unawares and go 10:1 long on the TV show or something.  It's time to cautiously short, folks.

(BFL)^2 < 0
arepo
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this statement is false


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January 14, 2012, 06:23:02 AM
 #51

wtf is going on right now? massive volatility out of nowhere?

this sentence has fifteen words, seventy-four letters, four commas, one hyphen, and a period.
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January 14, 2012, 06:23:30 AM
 #52

wtf is going on right now? massive volatility out of nowhere?
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January 14, 2012, 06:27:27 AM
 #53

6.34 then jump to 6.75 then jump back down to 6.23 and now 6.59. wow wtf?
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January 14, 2012, 06:32:31 AM
 #54

damn mtgox, it won't execute my orders.

edit: took a while.
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January 14, 2012, 06:40:19 AM
 #55

6.34 then jump to 6.75 then jump back down to 6.23 and now 6.59. wow wtf?

You must be new to Bitcoins
jothan
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January 14, 2012, 06:44:29 AM
 #56

6.34 then jump to 6.75 then jump back down to 6.23 and now 6.59. wow wtf?

You must be new to Bitcoins

I believe the technical term is "a little price move" today.

Bitcoin: the only currency you can store directly into your brain.

What this planet needs is a good 0.0005 BTC US nickel.
RyNinDaCleM
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January 14, 2012, 06:56:17 AM
 #57

about time, I was nodding off

This! ^^

But now it happened, I can safely go to bed.

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January 14, 2012, 07:15:52 AM
 #58

This is it!  $10 here we come!



Didn't really read the posts, but a similar picture was posted in a thread of mine before the collapse from around $10 down to $2. The graph was not right.

If you love me, you'd give me a Satoshi!
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ineededausername
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January 14, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
 #59

The long-term trendline has held... for now.  I will be staying out of the market for now -- it doesn't have a strong direction and I will be observing it.

(BFL)^2 < 0
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January 14, 2012, 03:28:08 PM
 #60

The long-term trendline has held... for now.  I will be staying out of the market for now -- it doesn't have a strong direction and I will be observing it.

Dosent have a strong direction.... ? Hmmmmm, you aint seen nothing yet..  BTO...

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