Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable

[DeathAndTaxes]

I do not like their cloak and dagger behavior with the source-code and only releasing it to peer review after they "feel" the world is ready.

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/src

Care to elaborate?

The code as released doesn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  It also can be hard forked by creating an alternate chain longer than 720 blocks.   NXT promises there is some magical code (EC and TF) which will resolve these problems but the world isn't ready for it yet.

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[jonald_fyookball]

20 years from now, daily reward is still 112 blocks...should be more than enough to keep fees low.

It'll be 3% of what it is now. We can hope that 1 BTC doubles in real-world value at least every 4 years to compensate, and it might for a while, but that rate of increase can't continue forever. I am thinking in longer timescales than 20 years here.

Gavin recently stated the network is "over secure"...meaning there is too many
miners...if later on, miners need to drop out because there is no more profit,
there may be fewer miners.  There will have to be a balance between security
and fees.   

It largely depends on how big Bitcoin gets.  If a billion dollars
a day is transacted, then a million dollars a day in fees is 1/10th of a percent.

[sumantso]

DPOS and NXT are practically identical, the only difference is which mechanism is used to pick block producers (both are essentially by stake-vote)

In NXT you can also form forging pools and may lead to Bitcoin style problems.

[liondani]

I think it will be a battle between nxt @ bitshares
Nxt has the advantage that has released their "product" first, security wise in my mind the winner is bitshares but only on the playfield they will proove it.
Both coins are still undervalued and I am personaly invested more in favor of bitshares and I continue to invest there because I think they have a greater potential.
Hope the devs and founders from the 3 "coins" will share their good ideas and "work together" so all communities will win a share from the success of this innovative industry! We are all on the same neighborhood 

As Stan (bitshares founder) said:
"Each of us will drive more awareness to each other than they will take away from each other.  It's the same reason competing car dealers and hardware stores tend to cluster on the same street.  Get the traffic to come to your neighborhood and then compete!"

[Fatih87SK]

I do not like their cloak and dagger behavior with the source-code and only releasing it to peer review after they "feel" the world is ready.

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/src

Care to elaborate?

The code as released doesn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  It also can be hard forked by creating an alternate chain longer than 720 blocks.   NXT promises there is some magical code (EC and TF) which will resolve these problems but the world isn't ready for it yet.

Our main developer wants to answer you. But he does not use BTT anymore;

https://twitter.com/comefrombeyond/statuses/470997528604049408

[delulo]

DPOS and NXT are practically identical, the only difference is which mechanism is used to pick block producers (both are essentially by stake-vote)

In NXT you can also form forging pools and may lead to Bitcoin style problems.

The forging pools with nxt equal the delegates in dpos. This is what makes them equal.

[misterbowls]

Bitshares and NXT are both exciting. I lean towards Dpos because the development is more open.  Bitshares also seems to have a fuller support for DACs.

[jonald_fyookball]

I do not like their cloak and dagger behavior with the source-code and only releasing it to peer review after they "feel" the world is ready.

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/src

Care to elaborate?

The code as released doesn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  It also can be hard forked by creating an alternate chain longer than 720 blocks.   NXT promises there is some magical code (EC and TF) which will resolve these problems but the world isn't ready for it yet.

Our main developer wants to answer you. But he does not use BTT anymore;

https://twitter.com/comefrombeyond/statuses/470997528604049408

Sounds like he want to pick DaT's brain.

If he had a solid solution he would be releasing without the fanfare.  Just my opinion.

[Fatih87SK]

I do not like their cloak and dagger behavior with the source-code and only releasing it to peer review after they "feel" the world is ready.

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/src

Care to elaborate?

The code as released doesn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  It also can be hard forked by creating an alternate chain longer than 720 blocks.   NXT promises there is some magical code (EC and TF) which will resolve these problems but the world isn't ready for it yet.

Our main developer wants to answer you. But he does not use BTT anymore;

https://twitter.com/comefrombeyond/statuses/470997528604049408

Sounds like he want to pick DaT's brain.

If he had a solid solution he would be releasing without the fanfare.  Just my opinion.

Or you can visit our forum to ask about all of this;

https://nxtforum.org/

[CLains]

Judging by all these PoS-revivals of old PoW coins, it seems PoS is catching on! Will be interesting to see dPOS in action.

[SomethingElse]

The guy from Bitshares has a serious marketing problem.  Every time he opens his mouth, he sounds like he isn't sure of anything he is saying, and the project has been long in the making and regularly evolving so maybe he doesn't. 

NXT doesn't really have a good spokesman either, just lots of part time investors/developers.  They seem to be working hard and making it come together but the coordination/vision/message is a bit rough and unclear.

Peercoin?  What is Peercoin again?

Ethereum hasn't even released a single bit of working code, but if they did an IPO, its market cap would slaughter NXT and Bitshares and Peercoin put together.  A person might want to think that the best product wins, but that isn't often true.  Many times it is the product with the best salesman that wins.  That is why Ethereum would win and it doesn't even have a real product yet.

So you ask, which POS system is the best?  I say the one with the best salesman.  Sounds silly and isn't a direct answer to the question, but it is the real answer.  Many products on the shelves of Walmart spend far more in advertising than they spend in product development.  Why? Because they know you get to #1 not by being the best, but making people believe you are the best. 

[JoeyD]

@SomethingElse I wish you were wrong about the best marketing overruling everything, but I'm afraid I have to agree with you. Thing is marketing takes big bucks and massive manpower and time, not something most start-ups can provide unless they have big VC-backing or something like that and that doesn't help with the decentralization and low barriers to entry principles.

Crowdfunding/ipo seems to come with it's own set of problems, like an angry mob of "experts" who seem to think that harassing a small team with extra pressure, threats and rumors is a sound strategy to insure the success of their "investment". I'm seeing more and more kickstarter-projects suffering the same backlash. If anything, it looks like crowdfunding requires that the marketing and pr teams should be bigger than the dev-team.

One thing that worries me about overhyping like with Ethereum is that it could very well backfire, but then again some people just want to believe in a dream, so it might just work even if they aren't able to make true on their claims. Now that you mention it, where is Ethereum getting  the money for their marketing and travels if they haven't done their IPO yet, are they backed by VCs or something? Anybody have any info on that?

Elaborating on my remark about NXT, DeathAndTaxes answered that part very eloquently, also I was paraphrasing what ComeFromBeyond actually said on the nxt-forums as being the reason for not releasing the transparent forging code. The other part of it was referring to the code not being released for quite a while after the fundraiser and even then it had those 3 deliberate bugs in them (apart from the non deliberate ones of course). Opensource is the primary requirement for me in this space for several reasons especially when dealing with trust in anonymous/pseudonymous people.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Sounds like he want to pick DaT's brain.

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    Still I don't see much sense in communicating privately.  I rarely sign NDAs and I can't remember ever signing one when I wasn't being compensated.   Even with compensation I doubt I would be willing to sign one as I would find it very frustrating if the code confirms my suspicious and then I am unable to use that code to support an argument.

Eventually the code will be open sources and we can debate it in the open.   At this point I can't definitively say the NXT team and their unreleased code hasn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  My argument is more than it is dubious to claim something is solved based on secret code.  The public can't independently verify that claim, nor can they look to skeptics for a counterargument.  I believe in Bitcoin but I do read articles written by skeptics but they are an outside viewpoint and sometimes that is useful.

[klee]

Sounds like he want to pick DaT's brain.

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    Still I don't see much sense in communicating privately.  I rarely sign NDAs and I can't remember ever signing one when I wasn't being compensated.   Even with compensation I doubt I would be willing to sign one as I would find it very frustrating if the code confirms my suspicious and then I am unable to use that code to support an argument.

Eventually the code will be open sources and we can debate it in the open.   At this point I can't definitively say the NXT team and their unreleased code hasn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  My argument is more than it is dubious to claim something is solved based on secret code.  The public can't independently verify that claim, nor can they look to skeptics for a counterargument.  I believe in Bitcoin but I do read articles written by skeptics but they are an outside viewpoint and sometimes that is useful.

Where did you see the NDA demand?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Sounds like he want to pick DaT's brain.

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    Still I don't see much sense in communicating privately.  I rarely sign NDAs and I can't remember ever signing one when I wasn't being compensated.   Even with compensation I doubt I would be willing to sign one as I would find it very frustrating if the code confirms my suspicious and then I am unable to use that code to support an argument.

Eventually the code will be open sources and we can debate it in the open.   At this point I can't definitively say the NXT team and their unreleased code hasn't solve the nothing at stake problem.  My argument is more than it is dubious to claim something is solved based on secret code.  The public can't independently verify that claim, nor can they look to skeptics for a counterargument.  I believe in Bitcoin but I do read articles written by skeptics but they are an outside viewpoint and sometimes that is useful.

Where did you see the NDA demand?

It was an assumption.  I will share any "secret but open source" code I receive barring an NDA.  If they want the code public they can just post it publicly.  If they want to allow me to see the code under the condition that I not reveal it that would require an NDA.  I don't really see the point in secretly sharing code that can be released publicly, do you?

[jonald_fyookball]

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    

Even that is a questionable assumption.

They are most likely not sure if they are correct
and want to recruit you to their cause (not saying
that's bad or good)...

but if they were confident in their solution, they
would release it.  

To me, the (nothing at stake) problem is
not that hard to understand, after having
it been explained to me by yourself in
one of these threads.  Certainly, it is
easier to understand than the nuances of
ECDSA.

Intuition says that a solution to the problem,
if there is one, would be at least easily verified,
if not simplistic itself.  Although, that is just
my gut feeling on it.

[Peter R]

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    

Even that is a questionable assumption.

They are most likely not sure if they are correct
and want to recruit you to their cause (not saying
that's bad or good)...

but if they were confident in their solution, they
would release it.  

It is also possible that certain Nxt insiders know that they don't have a solution, and simply want to delay the day of reckoning as long as possible in order to maximize the amount of pre-mine they can convert to bitcoin.

[Conurtrol]

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    

Even that is a questionable assumption.

They are most likely not sure if they are correct
and want to recruit you to their cause (not saying
that's bad or good)...

but if they were confident in their solution, they
would release it.  

It is also possible that certain Nxt insiders know that they don't have a solution, and simply want to delay the day of reckoning as long as possible in order to maximize the amount of pre-mine they can convert to bitcoin.

Yeah right. That's why Come from beyond wants to reach out to D&T to explain things and show him some code. Logical conclusion, genius.

[Conurtrol]

If you want to delay the "day of reckoning" then you obviously should want to invite the scrutiny of an expert who doubts you. Brilliant.

[Peter R]

I believe they believe they have a solution however based on what is publicly available I don't believe they are correct.    

Even that is a questionable assumption.

They are most likely not sure if they are correct
and want to recruit you to their cause (not saying
that's bad or good)...

but if they were confident in their solution, they
would release it.  

It is also possible that certain Nxt insiders know that they don't have a solution, and simply want to delay the day of reckoning as long as possible in order to maximize the amount of pre-mine they can convert to bitcoin.

Yeah right. That's why Come from beyond wants to reach out to D&T to explain things and show him some code. Logical conclusion genius.

Of course it is possible.  People can decide for themselves how probable it is.  For the record, I don't believe Come-from-Beyond "reached out" to D&T in a genuine way based on this logic:

I will share any "secret but open source" code I receive barring an NDA.  If they want the code public they can just post it publicly.  If they want to allow me to see the code under the condition that I not reveal it that would require an NDA.  I don't really see the point in secretly sharing code that can be released publicly, do you?

What is interesting to me is that in the (IMO very unlikely) event that Nxt has technical promise, then as soon as the code is open-source it will be possible to create Nxt-clone using the spin-off mechanism and immediately bootstrap the clone with a more efficient distribution than Nxt-original.