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Author Topic: The Bitcoin Show on OnlyOneTV.com  (Read 49166 times)
BlockHash
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September 08, 2011, 09:00:46 PM
 #361

Why are you and Rassah etc. so obsessed with defending him?  If you don't want to join in any boycott then why keep posting instead of moving on?

You his buddies?

Don't know him personally, no. Don't actually have an opinion of him, since all I know of him is what the court's opinions of his actions are, and the persona he projects on camera. Those do not a person make. From a business sense, I would be very wary of hiring him to do anything or giving him my money. From a personal hanging-out type sense, I don't know, he seems like a fun guy. Do I think he's despicable for what he did? I don't know, because I'm still not convinced of the facts. Thing is, none of you here know all the facts, either. Just court decisions, and a lot of speculation.
Why am I "defending" him? I guess it just bothers me when I see a shit-ton of angry trolls start witch hunts, which quickly go from court decisions based on he-said she-said, to wild accusations about who the hell knows what.
Bottom line is, I can say that the court evidence is damning, but doesn't tell me everything. Can you say that you know for a fact that Bruce does not feel remorse for screwing up the people he did, whether through scam or shit business idea?


Not convinced at the facts? Are you serious? The guy ran a mortgage scam, preying on the desperate, and never had any intention nor did he ever actually help anyone, in any way, aside from relieving them of their money. That's documented fact. I'm not sure what else you would need to determine he's a despicable person.
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wolftaur
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September 08, 2011, 09:00:58 PM
 #362

Difference between Bruce and some certain bitcointalk members:

Bruce
 is always optimistic, has positive energy and forward looking
 does something by himself, is active - the bitcoin show, bitcoin conference(s)
 tries to evangelize bitcoin, convinces shops to accept bitcoins

Certain bitcointalk members
 are always destructive, suspects everyone being a scammer
 are passive, see everything as bad
 wait until others do something
 badmouth bitcoin
 
So looking at the above comparison, I say, for the value of my own bitcoins and the whole bitcoin economy, I rather get rid of the BlockHashes, Colargols and wolftaurs (so to speak) than Bruce

I've never been arrested, I have no criminal record, I have never been sued successfully or otherwise, and I have never been a suspect in a crime. Bruce, on the other hand...

As to suspecting everyone being a scammer... Ha. Well, you obviously don't follow my history. During the Mt.Gox hack I was sitting there trying to tell everyone that Mt.Gox probably didn't cut and run. But, gee, I guess you're perfectly willing to ignore not only the truth about Bruce, but the truth about anyone who doesn't like him. I really like bitcoin. I'd like someone who isn't a criminal to be speaking up for it. And that shouldn't be too much to ask.

"MOOOOOOOM! SOME MYTHICAL WOLFBEAST GUY IS MAKING FUN OF ME ON THE INTERNET!!!!"
aq
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September 08, 2011, 09:01:59 PM
 #363

As for a commercial on TV when I buy a car, I always look at the company that I'm going to do business with and their reputation. Just because they haven't personally scammed or cheated me, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen and vigilance has kept it from happening to me and my friends. This has nothing to do with his private life and everything to do with his public and business life, period.
And the car company in this example would be bitcoin itself. You don't have BW client running on your computer. It is bitcoin that you have to thrust. You don't have to thrust the speaker of their commercials (BW).
So yes, examine the source code of the Bitcoin software. Check that there is no bad code in there, and so on. But BW? Why?
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September 08, 2011, 09:05:05 PM
 #364

But that's OK, I understand you conveniently forgot because that let you keep defending him. And I understand that you're only interested in defending the beloved spokesman and so you repeatedly ignored facts. I understand that you made up your mind right from the start and the discussion we had in another thread where I pointed at actual court documents, then pointed out why some of the "explanations" were bullshit, well, of course you and a bunch of other people just have to reject that because it doesn't fit the conclusion you formed before you had facts.

And I understand that the concept that a spokesman should have a reputation for integrity, instead of a reputation for fraud, is obviously completely beyond you. But, hey, if you think someone who scammed tons of people in multiple states is the best person to make Bitcoin look good...

I may have forgotten the facts, I'll give you that. Yes, I know there are multiple issues in multiple states. Stuff about assault in NY I think? Your points about why explanations were bullshit were also your speculation. No evidence on either your part or his, sorry.
Also, I don't think of him as a spokesman. Gavin is the developer. Bruce is just one guy with a show, and little technical knowledge behind the project. And again, I'm honestly not trying to defend him, I'm just trying to put some breaks on the extreme overreacting and EXTREME reaching on some of the claims.

Otoh
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September 08, 2011, 09:05:44 PM
 #365

lol aq ~ short for acquiescence?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42309.msg515212#msg515212

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September 08, 2011, 09:06:54 PM
 #366

Yeah, he organised "the largest case of mortgage fraud ever in Illinois" and made off with $600. It's amazing you are still breathing. How do you think he pays for a studio in Manhattan, streaming internet TV, and international filming jaunts to Tokyo?The man hasn't had a job in the last decade.

To me it seems more like what happens in the furry fandom, where when one of them gets caught on camera in the news doing something embarrassing or illegal, the rest of them immediately freak out, turn against them, and try to distance the community as far from that person as possible by any means necessary. It's a rather sad source of drama in that fandom, and, sadly, is a major source of entertainment for SA goons and anyone else who likes to pick on insecure nerds. Really though, as you said, they just shouldn't care.
Yeah, people should just not care when other people get caught fucking animals  Roll Eyes. Nobody cares what you get up to when you are wearing your yiffsuit but the moment you lay a hand on a real animal or child, damn straight you should be villified. As for Bruce, the Bitcoin community should have washed their hands of him the moment he was outed as a fraudster. No drama needed... But too many people were too proud/stubborn to admit they had been wrong about it, so it turned into a protracted battle.

A pseudonymous marketplace like Bitcoin relies on scammers being ostracised. If you value bitcoin and want it to succeed, you should write Bruce off ASAP

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aq
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September 08, 2011, 09:07:29 PM
 #367

Difference between Bruce and some certain bitcointalk members:

Bruce
 is always optimistic, has positive energy and forward looking
 does something by himself, is active - the bitcoin show, bitcoin conference(s)
 tries to evangelize bitcoin, convinces shops to accept bitcoins

Certain bitcointalk members
 are always destructive, suspects everyone being a scammer
 are passive, see everything as bad
 wait until others do something
 badmouth bitcoin
 
So looking at the above comparison, I say, for the value of my own bitcoins and the whole bitcoin economy, I rather get rid of the BlockHashes, Colargols and wolftaurs (so to speak) than Bruce

I've never been arrested, I have no criminal record, I have never been sued successfully or otherwise, and I have never been a suspect in a crime. Bruce, on the other hand...
Wow! So how can it then be that some apparently convinced fraudster was able to significantly broaden the bitcoin economy, while you only work on damaging it?
wolftaur
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September 08, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
 #368

I may have forgotten the facts, I'll give you that. Yes, I know there are multiple issues in multiple states. Stuff about assault in NY I think? Your points about why explanations were bullshit were also your speculation. No evidence on either your part or his, sorry.

Bruce couldn't provide the court in Illinois with the name of _ONE PERSON_ whos home he saved. The ads he ran claimed he'd been doing that for 12 years and had over 70 offices.

And those ads have been posted for all to see.

So, let's see. Bruce ran ads claiming 12 years experience, multiple lawyers on staff, 70+ offices nationwide. Those ads have been posted, archived through independent sources, and those ads are part of the court documentation against him. Bruce could not actually provide the name of _ONE SINGLE SATISFIED CUSTOMER._

You think that means it's "speculation" that he committed willful fraud? Wake the fuck up.

"MOOOOOOOM! SOME MYTHICAL WOLFBEAST GUY IS MAKING FUN OF ME ON THE INTERNET!!!!"
wolftaur
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September 08, 2011, 09:10:12 PM
 #369

I've never been arrested, I have no criminal record, I have never been sued successfully or otherwise, and I have never been a suspect in a crime. Bruce, on the other hand...
Wow! So how can it then be that some apparently convinced fraudster was able to significantly broaden the bitcoin economy, while you only work on damaging it?


In your opinion. Considering I've gotten multiple people into it and someone setting up a bitcoin-related business is planning to hire me to write code for it, I'd say I've actually done something.

Your claim that I am "damaging" it, though? Well, let's see. Your argument is I'm damaging it by, um... What. Oh, that's right! Exposing Bruce as a scammer and providing proof, so that people won't fall for his next scam.

Gee, how horrible a person I am that I traveled back in time and planted false evidence against Bruce in a court archive JUST so I could point at that after Bitcoin came out.

"MOOOOOOOM! SOME MYTHICAL WOLFBEAST GUY IS MAKING FUN OF ME ON THE INTERNET!!!!"
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September 08, 2011, 09:10:30 PM
 #370

Wow! So how can it then be that some apparently convinced fraudster was able to significantly broaden the bitcoin economy, while you only work on damaging it?
I'll give you that, he was great at evangelising. Bitcoin is quite a complicated thing for the layman to understand, but he had a way with words. He always used to explain how easy the whole process was to beginners, you just had to go to mybitcoin.com and press "register"...

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Rassah
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September 08, 2011, 09:12:17 PM
 #371

Not convinced at the facts? Are you serious? The guy ran a mortgage scam, preying on the desperate, and never had any intention nor did he ever actually help anyone, in any way, aside from relieving them of their money. That's documented fact. I'm not sure what else you would need to determine he's a despicable person.

Let me repeat, the court found and declared his business to be a scam. The court rejected and did not admit into public record his explanation. The court also decided it's judgement as default. Not just a judge deciding on the case immediately due to overwhelming evidence, but deciding in default due to Bruce just refusing to defend himself after his explanations were rejected. We can go based on the court's word, or we can go on Bruce's word. Personally, having studied business court cases, that is still a case of he-said she-said to me, with way too few details, and I can easily imagine getting into the type of situation he described in a legitimate business example.
What I would need is to either read minds, or know Bruce personally. Or a confession from someone he worked with, admitting that the whole thing was really a scam. I don't have either.

wolftaur
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September 08, 2011, 09:16:15 PM
 #372

Let me repeat, the court found and declared his business to be a scam. The court rejected and did not admit into public record his explanation.

The court rejected it because his statements were false. He told a shitload of people he'd had great success saving houses. In court, he pulls the "Oh, yeah, well once business picked up we got overwhelmed" and then couldn't actually name a single client he helped.

The court is allowed to reject evidence that can be demonstrated to be fraudulent. Bruce "defaulted" because perjury in an actual trial would have gotten him thrown in prison and there was nothing truthful he could say in his defense.

His "defense", he already posted it on the forum. His claim was he got "overwhelmed." The court rightfully rejected that argument. It was covered in one of the financial news articles back then, someone posted the link to the archive in one of the threads.

"MOOOOOOOM! SOME MYTHICAL WOLFBEAST GUY IS MAKING FUN OF ME ON THE INTERNET!!!!"
aq
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September 08, 2011, 09:20:54 PM
 #373

I've never been arrested, I have no criminal record, I have never been sued successfully or otherwise, and I have never been a suspect in a crime. Bruce, on the other hand...
Wow! So how can it then be that some apparently convinced fraudster was able to significantly broaden the bitcoin economy, while you only work on damaging it?


In your opinion. Considering I've gotten multiple people into it and someone setting up a bitcoin-related business is planning to hire me to write code for it, I'd say I've actually done something.

Your claim that I am "damaging" it, though? Well, let's see. Your argument is I'm damaging it by, um... What. Oh, that's right! Exposing Bruce as a scammer and providing proof, so that people won't fall for his next scam.

Gee, how horrible a person I am that I traveled back in time and planted false evidence against Bruce in a court archive JUST so I could point at that after Bitcoin came out.
I could argue that you traveling back in time (at least before 2003), are as illegal as Bruce, depending on the US state you are in. You could have ended up in prison back in those years. So why do you value his past that much?

Wow! So how can it then be that some apparently convinced fraudster was able to significantly broaden the bitcoin economy, while you only work on damaging it?
I'll give you that, he was great at evangelising. Bitcoin is quite a complicated thing for the layman to understand, but he had a way with words. He always used to explain how easy the whole process was to beginners, you just had to go to mybitcoin.com and press "register"...
I think Bruce didn't know better. As one can tell from his shows, he is very ungeeky regarding computer stuff (and microphones BTW Smiley )

Edit: typo
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September 08, 2011, 09:22:07 PM
 #374

I may have forgotten the facts, I'll give you that. Yes, I know there are multiple issues in multiple states. Stuff about assault in NY I think? Your points about why explanations were bullshit were also your speculation. No evidence on either your part or his, sorry.

Bruce couldn't provide the court in Illinois with the name of _ONE PERSON_ whos home he saved. The ads he ran claimed he'd been doing that for 12 years and had over 70 offices.

And those ads have been posted for all to see.

So, let's see. Bruce ran ads claiming 12 years experience, multiple lawyers on staff, 70+ offices nationwide. Those ads have been posted, archived through independent sources, and those ads are part of the court documentation against him. Bruce could not actually provide the name of _ONE SINGLE SATISFIED CUSTOMER._

You think that means it's "speculation" that he committed willful fraud? Wake the fuck up.

I'm sure it's pointless to ask, but was he the sole employee of that company? Was he in charge of advertising or creating the website? Does he even know how to make a website? Do we have a timeline from when his business opened doors and got its first customer until they were sued, to see if they were really given enough time to find clients?
More importantly, do we have proof that Bruce stole millions, or is a pedo, or is behind Mybitcoin?
Even MORE importantly, are you running your own show? Do you know who will make a better spokesman for Bitcoin? Do you have any plans to help them get started?
The MOST important question, do you think you can influence the opinions of the community as a whole about whom they should or should not give a feck about? Do you think you will be able to stop Bruce from continuing his show? Do you think you can change the minds of the fans of his show, or change the minds of people who never liked his show, anyway? Do you think anyone else outside of Bitcoin will even care?

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September 08, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
 #375

Personally, having studied business court cases, that is still a case of he-said she-said to me, with way too few details, and I can easily imagine getting into the type of situation he described in a legitimate business example.

Could you list any businesses you are a part of so I will know to avoid them.

But anyway I sent off my messages to the sponsors.

MtGox.com
info@mtgox.com

Bit-pay.com
info@bit-pay.com

MezeGrill.com
http://mezegrill.com/contact_us.html

BitBrew.net
http://bitbrew.net/contact


I am done trying to argue with the Bruce associates/defenders... or whatever they are.   

Do what thou wilt.


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rainingbitcoins
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September 08, 2011, 09:28:36 PM
 #376

Do you think you can change the minds of the fans of his show,

90% of his audience were the same people who exposed him. As for the other ten viewers, I guess that's up to them.
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September 08, 2011, 09:29:38 PM
 #377

Let me repeat, the court found and declared his business to be a scam. The court rejected and did not admit into public record his explanation.

The court rejected it because his statements were false.

Speculation.

He told a shitload of people he'd had great success saving houses. In court, he pulls the "Oh, yeah, well once business picked up we got overwhelmed" and then couldn't actually name a single client he helped.

He obviously lied to get business. That WAS apparently illegal. We don't know if he just took money and decided to keep it, or if as soon as he opened his business with all the lies, a whole bunch of desperate people sent him checks before he had the investors lined up to help him, and after a month or few of "where's my money/help?" he goes sued before he even had a chance to do anything.

The court is allowed to reject evidence that can be demonstrated to be fraudulent. Bruce "defaulted" because perjury in an actual trial would have gotten him thrown in prison and there was nothing truthful he could say in his defense.

Speculation again. The court paper didn't say why it was rejected.

His "defense", he already posted it on the forum. His claim was he got "overwhelmed." The court rightfully rejected that argument. It was covered in one of the financial news articles back then, someone posted the link to the archive in one of the threads.

Must not have bee one of the few I'm following then.

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September 08, 2011, 09:30:43 PM
 #378

I could argue that you traveling back in time (at least before 2003), as as illegal as Bruce, depending on the US state you are in. You could have ended up in prison back in those years. So why do you value his past that much?

Because I worked for several years at a legitimate debt management firm. We routinely had customers in foreclosure come in for help, but they had already paid their money to one of Bruce's copycats. By the time they realized there would be no help they had $3,000 less and were 3 or 4 mortgage payments behind, not 1. I and my coworkers had to watch several families a month become homeless because of those scams. And that was before the securities bubble burst. It was much worse after that.

When you have a mother and father of three children walk in the door terrified about what will happen to their kids if they lose the home and you take an amount of money that could have covered them moving into a cheaper apartment, and sit back and watch them lose their home, you are a fucking asshole, end of story. The owner of the company I worked for was one of the greediest people I know and HE didn't even try charging people fees when they were in such dire straits. We'd usually negotiate a vastly reduced fee, to be paid months or even a couple years down the road after they were on better footing, and even then we usually took a loss.

The very fact he was going after people who had foreclosure notice means he knew for a fact every victim coming in the door would be seriously harmed when nothing was done to help them. The people walking into his office were people about to lose their homes.

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September 08, 2011, 09:31:36 PM
 #379

Personally, having studied business court cases, that is still a case of he-said she-said to me, with way too few details, and I can easily imagine getting into the type of situation he described in a legitimate business example.

Could you list any businesses you are a part of so I will know to avoid them.

Lucky for you, none yet. Still working on my master's  Grin I do work for the government as a finance analyst, so feel free to avoid government  Tongue

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September 08, 2011, 09:32:14 PM
 #380

I can't. I work for the medico-pharmaceutical giants keeping all of you drugged for our Zionist masters.

Is this true or sarcasm?
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