Calling all Bitcoiners: SPEAK OUT against CIRCLE!

[franky1]

Circle also has no transaction fees and buying or selling fees...

This kind of service is really needed for bitcoin to go mainstream especially in developing countries

read the terms, they put a lien on your coin as soon as its deposited. they then use those coins to trade for their profit AKA fractional reserve

where the total bitcoins on members balances. DOES NOT equal the total holdings in cold store. its not used as a reserve. its used as trading money. no wallet provider should EVER take your bitcoins and then play with them behind the scenes. if they want to do it, they should stick with FIAT.

if they make a bad gamble and lose coins, yes its protected by their insurance (kind of). but most insurance companies do not pay out simply on request multiple times per year, they usually do it when there is no other way out. so circle would probably keep their investing losses a secret from the public and continue with the less coin to attempt to recoop losses, without publicising it. after all if they did publicise it, they would see soo many withdrawal requests, they would be left in debt.

thus until totally in unrecoverable debt to make an insurance claim, you will never know the true reserve they have backing the balances of their customers..

we dont need fractional reserved investments paying for bitcoin business profits. as it never ends well. EG first meta putting funds into MTGOX, then losing it. and the women in charge ends up committing suicide. while brock pierce walks away selling off his stake in the first meta company.

[RockHound]

I'm a big fan of the Bitcoin protocol!

Thought Circle's implementation was a great idea. Am I missing something here?

How does it differ from any operating Bitcoin business/exchange like; Bitstamp, Coinbase, Kraken?

Once you transact with them, you can immediately withdraw your BTC, can you not?

[franky1]

I'm a big fan of the Bitcoin protocol!

Thought Circle's implementation was a great idea. Am I missing something here?

How does it differ from any operating Bitcoin business/exchange like; Bitstamp, Coinbase, Kraken?

Once you transact with them, you can immediately withdraw your BTC, can you not?

th beleif is that when depositing, most people leave funds in there and only withdraw about 10% at any one time. this leaves 90% sitting in their 'cold store'/'reserve'

the way circle profits is to play with this 'reserve' either on private trades or on exchanges. just making a small 1% here and there to cover their costs. thus customers dont get to pay any fee's as the profits are traded behind the scenes away from the customers eyes.

and look how FIAT turned out for the banking industry with their behind the scenes trading so that customers can have fully insured funds in thier bank balance without paying large banking fee's.

bitcoin should NOT be about trusting third parties with your wealth. if anything you should only use circle for 2 reasons

1. easy way to buy bitcoins and transfer it ALL to your own personal cold store
2. only keep daily spend amounts in their wallet for easy day-to-day spending

[RockHound]

I'm a big fan of the Bitcoin protocol!

Thought Circle's implementation was a great idea. Am I missing something here?

How does it differ from any operating Bitcoin business/exchange like; Bitstamp, Coinbase, Kraken?

Once you transact with them, you can immediately withdraw your BTC, can you not?

th beleif is that when depositing, most people leave funds in there and only withdraw about 10% at any one time. this leaves 90% sitting in their 'cold store'/'reserve'

the way circle profits is to play with this 'reserve' either on private trades or on exchanges. just making a small 1% here and there to cover their costs. thus customers dont get to pay any fee's as the profits are traded behind the scenes away from the customers eyes.

and look how FIAT turned out for the banking industry with their behind the scenes trading so that customers can have fully insured funds in thier bank balance without paying large banking fee's.

bitcoin should NOT be about trusting third parties with your wealth. if anything you should only use circle for 2 reasons

1. easy way to buy bitcoins and transfer it ALL to your own personal cold store
2. only keep daily spend amounts in their wallet for easy day-to-day spending

Interesting point, once again Frank,

Will query their T/C's with support team. They should not be able to conduct stock market trading using customer's funds as leverage.
If they did this with only their company's profits and obtained agreement from their shareholders, then that's ok with me.

I planned on using them just to acquire BTC, always withdrawing full amount, as you have suggested.
Likewise, if I use their service as an alternative for Bitpay.

Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention Frank. 

[justusranvier]

People: It's one thing to be concerned they are a scam, but Circle cannot literally inflate the amount of actual Bitcoins.

They could accept a bunch of customer deposits and then start operating on a fractional reserve.

They could play the market, effectively taking a short position, using customer deposits.

Wall Street loves that doing that shit.

[Razick]

Circle has to be the worst idea in Bitcoin history; a Bitcoin central bank to centralize a decentralized cryptocurrency!  Next thing we know, there will be a Bitcoin Federal Reserve, Bitcoin Fractional Reserve Banking and, of course, Bitcoin INFLATION!

Anyone who supports the idea of DECENTRALIZED CRYPTOCURRENCY needs to IMMEDIATELY speak out against circle and its corrupt CEO Jeremy Allaire.  This is a massive ponzi scheme just waiting to happen.  They are so desperate to attract Bitcoiners that they are giving away a free $10 in Bitcoin just to get you ID-verified on their system.

This is a travesty and I am just dumbfounded that such a company could even get off the ground.  Bitcoiners need to speak out on the forums, blogs, magazines, commenting on articles - SPREAD THE WORD.

This company 'Circle' is gearing up for the biggest ponzi scheme that Bitcoin has ever known.  And if these types of centralized Bitcoin banks are allowed to succeed, it could very well spell the end of Bitcoin and a mass exodus towards other, less commercially-corrupted cryptocurrencies. 

Michael Moriarty

Absolutely not. Is Circle a good idea? I don't know. However, if it truly makes buying Bitcoin as easy as they claim, I'm willing to give it a shot. There is something wrong with how difficult it is for newcomers to Bitcoin to actually get a hold of any. Circle does not "centralize" Bitcoin any more than PayPal centralizes the dollar. It's a money services provider, and you have a choice whether or not to use it.

[Razick]

People: It's one thing to be concerned they are a scam, but Circle cannot literally inflate the amount of actual Bitcoins.

They could accept a bunch of customer deposits and then start operating on a fractional reserve.

They could play the market, effectively taking a short position, using customer deposits.

Wall Street loves that doing that shit.

They are legally prohibited from doing so as a registered MSB.

[BldSwtTrs]

People: It's one thing to be concerned they are a scam, but Circle cannot literally inflate the amount of actual Bitcoins.

They could accept a bunch of customer deposits and then start operating on a fractional reserve.

They could play the market, effectively taking a short position, using customer deposits.

Wall Street loves that doing that shit.

Don't you think the community pressure and their future competition will force them to implement something like proof of solvency/reserve?

[F-bernanke]

Don't you think the community pressure and their future competition will force them to implement something like proof of solvency/reserve?

They can just lease the coins for the proof of solvency...

[franky1]

oh and by the way.. by signing up to them you waive your right to ever make a class action lawsit against them, and instead accept to have arbitration as the only method of recourse.

5.4 Arbitration. Except for claims for injunctive or equitable relief or claims regarding intellectual property rights (which may be brought in any competent court without the posting of a bond), any dispute arising under this Agreement shall be finally settled on an individual basis in accordance with the American Arbitration Association's rules for arbitration of consumer-related disputes and you and Circle hereby expressly waive trial by jury. The arbitration shall take place in Boston, Massachusetts, in the English language, and the arbitral decision may be enforced in any court. The prevailing party in any action or proceeding to enforce this Agreement shall be entitled to costs and attorneys’ fees. You agree that disputes between you and Circle will be resolved by binding, individual arbitration and you waive your right to participate in a class action lawsuit or class-wide arbitration.

[Alley]

Its sad to see these members bad mouth new companys and ideas coming into the bitcoin world.  If all these new startups fail and the millions of venture capital dollars is wasted bitcoin is going down the drain.  We need to support company's like circle even if us early adopters arnt going to use them.  I was under the impression we all want mainstream adoption?  Or do you guys only want people to use bitcoin the way you use it?

[franky1]

Its sad to see these members bad mouth new companys and ideas coming into the bitcoin world.  If all these new startups fail and the millions of venture capital dollars is wasted bitcoin is going down the drain.  We need to support company's like circle even if us early adopters arnt going to use them.  I was under the impression we all want mainstream adoption?  Or do you guys only want people to use bitcoin the way you use it?

bad mouthing costs nothing. if the business is fully legit and works correctly, even if they have a million people insulting them.. then the business will continue,

take facebook for instance. i can count many millions bad mouthing facebook due to selling customer data, making private conversations public, peoples private photos public and a whole host of other user issues that are factual.......... yet facebook still runs and gets the investment it needs to pay its staff.

what should never happen though is when there are gripes, issues and problems that need addressing. is for people to stay quiet and let the snowball tumble and get worse. or to cause people to become victims as they thought the business was 'perfect' due to people biting their lips, purely to be nice.

a perfect business i would endorse is one that i cant find any loop holes or risks in..

[justusranvier]

They are legally prohibited from doing so as a registered MSB.

And what does that mean, exactly?

Just that they'll have to be bought out and/or lobby the right regulator before the games can start.

[RockHound]

oh and by the way.. by signing up to them you waive your right to ever make a class action lawsit against them, and instead accept to have arbitration as the only method of recourse.

5.4 Arbitration. Except for claims for injunctive or equitable relief or claims regarding intellectual property rights (which may be brought in any competent court without the posting of a bond), any dispute arising under this Agreement shall be finally settled on an individual basis in accordance with the American Arbitration Association's rules for arbitration of consumer-related disputes and you and Circle hereby expressly waive trial by jury. The arbitration shall take place in Boston, Massachusetts, in the English language, and the arbitral decision may be enforced in any court. The prevailing party in any action or proceeding to enforce this Agreement shall be entitled to costs and attorneys’ fees. You agree that disputes between you and Circle will be resolved by binding, individual arbitration and you waive your right to participate in a class action lawsuit or class-wide arbitration.

Haha, good man! Just read through their lengthy User Agreement and picked up on that too  

However, can not find any suggestion of private/fractional trading using customer funds as leverage. It's my understanding that this would be in breach of their MSB license and FinCEN compliance. Interestingly, their parent company Circle Internet Financial Limited, is organized under the laws of Ireland (collectively, “Circle”). Not sure, but by transferring their company assets to Parent, can they negate their USA Tax liabilities, akin to Apple?

[Razick]

They are legally prohibited from doing so as a registered MSB.

And what does that mean, exactly?

Just that they'll have to be bought out and/or lobby the right regulator before the games can start.

That's so insanely cynical for a business that should not be used to store massive amount of Bitcoins anyway. Seriously, when you buy an Amazon giftcard do you think "They'll discontinue gift cards and move to a country where I can't sue them?" You are bad mouthing a company that, as of yet, has done nothing wrong.

[alani123]

We know that bitcoin "banking" services are not the best idea. I see the points OP is trying to make and I fully understand why he thinks members of a currency built around the idea that there won't be any need for centralised money controll should not support a a "Bitcoin Bank". But from the looks circle is much more than just that. It seems like a project aiming to make bitcoin more accessible to the general public. Adoption could only be good for bitcoin.


FYI I as well don't like the idea of crowdfunding (remember neo and bee?). Banks for bitcoin tend to not end well too! (FlexCoin anyone?)

[acoindr]

Circle is a HUGE leap forward for Bitcoin. I was blown away by their video.

Everyone keeps talking about taking Bitcoin mainstream, well, this is the way to do it. The user experience Circle showed is what Joe Average expects. Typical users are not going to download Armory or create a bootable Ubuntu USB stick. They will also crinkle their nose at a bid or ask. These are the same people that use 123456 as a password.

bitcoin should NOT be about trusting third parties with your wealth. if anything you should only use circle for 2 reasons

1. easy way to buy bitcoins and transfer it ALL to your own personal cold store
2. only keep daily spend amounts in their wallet for easy day-to-day spending

I agree. IMO the best local storage hope for these people will be some two piece, multisignature hardware solution for convenient yet secure coin usage. In the meantime people need a far less intimidating way to become familiar with cryptocurrency. Most people learn to ride a bike before learning to drive a car.

Yes, these types services can engage in fractional reserve banking, but that's not a problem. The minute there is a sign of trouble there will be a run on the bank. That's how banks fail. The problem occurs when banks become too big to fail. Fortunately, since bitcoins themselves can't be fictitiously produced central banks and governments have no way to bail out banks without giving away real wealth. So banks fail, and people who entrusted them completely lose out. Life goes on. In the meantime Bitcoin provides proof of reserves as competitive advantage to all players in the space.

[Bitcoinpro]

oh and by the way.. by signing up to them you waive your right to ever make a class action lawsit against them, and instead accept to have arbitration as the only method of recourse.

5.4 Arbitration. Except for claims for injunctive or equitable relief or claims regarding intellectual property rights (which may be brought in any competent court without the posting of a bond), any dispute arising under this Agreement shall be finally settled on an individual basis in accordance with the American Arbitration Association's rules for arbitration of consumer-related disputes and you and Circle hereby expressly waive trial by jury. The arbitration shall take place in Boston, Massachusetts, in the English language, and the arbitral decision may be enforced in any court. The prevailing party in any action or proceeding to enforce this Agreement shall be entitled to costs and attorneys’ fees. You agree that disputes between you and Circle will be resolved by binding, individual arbitration and you waive your right to participate in a class action lawsuit or class-wide arbitration.

Haha, good man! Just read through their lengthy User Agreement and picked up on that too  

However, can not find any suggestion of private/fractional trading using customer funds as leverage. It's my understanding that this would be in breach of their MSB license and FinCEN compliance. Interestingly, their parent company Circle Internet Financial Limited, which is organized under the laws of Ireland (collectively, “Circle”). Not sure, but by transferring their company assets to Parent, can they negate their USA Tax liabilities, akin to Apple?

Arbitration is a good way to settle things I doubt you can waive your right by Jury or Class action unless u signed your Arbitration settlement documents, and you would be getting some form of acceptable payment in your settlement or you wouldn't sign it in the first place. It could possibly be a way of forcing you to sit down and talk about it first in arbitration proceedings before your allowed to sue or launch a class action.

[jonald_fyookball]

Circle also has no transaction fees and buying or selling fees...

This kind of service is really needed for bitcoin to go mainstream especially in developing countries

read the terms, they put a lien on your coin as soon as its deposited. they then use those coins to trade for their profit AKA fractional reserve

where the total bitcoins on members balances. DOES NOT equal the total holdings in cold store. its not used as a reserve. its used as trading money. no wallet provider should EVER take your bitcoins and then play with them behind the scenes. if they want to do it, they should stick with FIAT.

if they make a bad gamble and lose coins, yes its protected by their insurance (kind of). but most insurance companies do not pay out simply on request multiple times per year, they usually do it when there is no other way out. so circle would probably keep their investing losses a secret from the public and continue with the less coin to attempt to recoop losses, without publicising it. after all if they did publicise it, they would see soo many withdrawal requests, they would be left in debt.

thus until totally in unrecoverable debt to make an insurance claim, you will never know the true reserve they have backing the balances of their customers..

we dont need fractional reserved investments paying for bitcoin business profits. as it never ends well. EG first meta putting funds into MTGOX, then losing it. and the women in charge ends up committing suicide. while brock pierce walks away selling off his stake in the first meta company.

Wow.  Good diggin in Franky.

If this is true (they are doing fractional reserve and essentially "gambling" with people's deposits) , then
The community needs to know about this.  

This doesn't sound good.

[franky1]

Haha, good man! Just read through their lengthy User Agreement and picked up on that too  

However, can not find any suggestion of private/fractional trading using customer funds as leverage. It's my understanding that this would be in breach of their MSB license and FinCEN compliance. Interestingly, their parent company Circle Internet Financial Limited, is organized under the laws of Ireland (collectively, “Circle”). Not sure, but by transferring their company assets to Parent, can they negate their USA Tax liabilities, akin to Apple?

exactly. they have circle san fransisco, circle massachusets, circle ireland. treated as 3 different elements. so the SF office is the MSB and the other 2 do other tasks. more then likely the ireland one will be doing the private trading.

after all with no fee's.. how do you think they are going to make money/profit to pay labour, licences, server costs.

and as for the fincen compliance, that only covers the FIAT reserves.. it has not much control or law in regards to the bitcoin reserves