How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People

[chrisrico]

I'm saying that point is right now; see the unproductive, one-sided argument about BIP 20 versus BIP 21 on the bitcoin-development mailing list that is re-hashing a wiki editing war that "the rest of us" just gave up on a year ago for the latest example.

I think to Luke-Jr, Bitcoin is merely a vehicle by which to deliver the tonal number system...

So let's say there was a consensus, either by the community as a whole or just the developers that he should no longer take part in development. How would that be enforced?

[1714166465]

1714166465

[1714166465]

1714166465

[cbeast]

This isn't a competition. This is a volunteer project of some of the smartest SOBs on the planet. We use science and the scientific method to sort out problems. While I agree that there are toxic memes that influence people, hopefully the bitcoin community can move on and the folks that make mistakes can learn from them. It's called redemption.

[teflone]

Just make it happen already, sick of hearing about this shit..

Deepbit sucks..  nothing new..

Lukedashjr is a man-boy...   nothing new..

[jimbobway]

Gavin seems to be a very reasonable guy on paper and in person in videos.  Gavin is also very transparent.  Satoshi, himself, annointed Gavin to lead the bitcoin project.  Gavin's voice clearly deserves to be weighted more than others.  I believe in Gavin.

I'd like to see a video of Luke to see how really socially normal he is.  It is easy to hide behind a keyboard, write BIPs and code.  But to take responsibility and ownership of a project and to put your face and reputation on it is another story.

[teflone]

Gavin seems to be a very reasonable guy on paper and in person in videos.  Gavin is also very transparent.  Satoshi, himself, annointed Gavin to lead the bitcoin project.  Gavin's voice clearly deserves to be weighted more than others.  I believe in Gavin.

I'd like to see a video of Luke to see how really socially normal he is.  It is easy to hide behind a keyboard, write BIPs and code.  But to take responsibility and ownership of a project and to put your face and reputation on it is another story.

Everyone needs to read this again...

[casascius]

Gavin seems to be a very reasonable guy on paper and in person in videos.  Gavin is also very transparent.  Satoshi, himself, annointed Gavin to lead the bitcoin project.  Gavin's voice clearly deserves to be weighted more than others.  I believe in Gavin.

I'd like to see a video of Luke to see how really socially normal he is.  It is easy to hide behind a keyboard, write BIPs and code.  But to take responsibility and ownership of a project and to put your face and reputation on it is another story.

+1

[Luke-Jr]

I'll be blunt:  I think Luke Dashjr fits the definition of a poisonous person, and I think Bitcoin would be better without him. At the very least, we wouldn't be creating two BIPs for every technical issue, one for Luke and one for the rest of us (see BIP 16/17, and now we have BIP 20/21, too).

Sorry, but you're twisting this to an extreme. I'm "poisonous" because I don't agree with you, and don't want to see a damaging change adopted? BIP 20/21 dispute was created by Matt, not me.

The P2SH dispute would end easily if you would accept BIP 17, just as easily as it would end if I accept BIP 16. You are the only developer dead-set against BIP 17, and for mere fear of the unknown, not real tangible things that people can solve (though I thank you for solving the sigop-counting issue that was once a tangible reason). It doesn't have to be BIP 17 that gets adopted; if someone has a better solution, that's fine by me. However, BIP 16 is not that: it changes more (and should be given more "fear of unknown" than BIP 17). Also, what a poisonous person would have done is simply argue against BIP 16, without providing any suggestions for improving it; I have gone to the work to provide a viable alternative - I have not only pointed out the problems, but also solved them.

The major downside of BIP 17 appears to be that its code is less-tested and less-reviewed.

FWIW, BIP 17 has actually completed more of the QA tests (chosen by Gavin) than BIP 16 has, and as it is a much simpler change, can easily be reviewed by anyone competent in C++ (patches).

In the longer run, I feel it might boil down to losing one of them (at least from the core team) over this disagreement. It's easy for us to ask them to sort it out peacefully, but sometimes different personality types just don't get along and shouldn't work together.

I've tried to sort it out peacefully, but it always seems to come down to Gavin not wanting to "waste" his time discussing it. At this point, since he has made it clear his concerns are over the unknown, there's probably not much I could do anyway, since the unknown is ... unknown. :/

I'd like to see a video of Luke to see how really socially normal he is.

I keep suggesting those of us in the Tampa area meet up sometime, but it hasn't quite happened yet. Does that count? :p


As far as Gavin goes... my position is:
I'm fine with Gavin keeping his leadership role. I don't think he should be turned into a dictator. I do thing spreading out his de facto authority is a good thing. I hope he doesn't leave the project over this. I don't think he's immune from biases. I don't think his decisions must be infallible. I respect his opinion as a competent developer.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not immune from biases, nor are my decisions infallible either. I am prepared to accept BIP 16's route should it get implemented (and have even prepared a step-forward should that happen), but that doesn't mean I want to give up on the better solution either.

[weex]

Have Gavin and Luke-Jr considered having a meeting/telephone conversation or would that cause some sort of rift in the continuum? Without more agreement within the community, I favor: "Don't just do something, sit there!"

[cypherdoc]

Gavin seems to be a very reasonable guy on paper and in person in videos.  Gavin is also very transparent.  Satoshi, himself, annointed Gavin to lead the bitcoin project.  Gavin's voice clearly deserves to be weighted more than others.  I believe in Gavin.

I'd like to see a video of Luke to see how really socially normal he is.  It is easy to hide behind a keyboard, write BIPs and code.  But to take responsibility and ownership of a project and to put your face and reputation on it is another story.

+1  this is exactly why i support Gavin.  he's been even open to talking to me on the telephone several times and has always been transparent and open.  i trust him.

[Andrew Vorobyov]

how socially normal he is.... WTF is this... how sick one must be to say things like this...

Luke's behavior on this matter is simply impecable... I can not find any cavity in his position on this matter...

As much I want to break free from position we are stuck in, but I can't dismiss what this guy says...

All of you, developers, are great people... I hope we will go through these days with lot of experience and it will make us stronger as community.

[cypherdoc]

I'd like to see a video of Luke to see how really socially normal he is.

I keep suggesting those of us in the Tampa area meet up sometime, but it hasn't quite happened yet. Does that count? :p

no, it actually doesn't.  you should make a video concerning your arguments and let the community view it.

this is actually an important point.  Gavin is actually someone i'd let babysit my kid.

[Killdozer]

no, it actually doesn't.  you should make a video concerning your arguments and let the community view it.

this is actually an important point.  Gavin is actually someone i'd let babysit my kid.

How are personal issues relevant to choosing the right technical solution again? Maybe we should invite your normal babysitter, what he/she has to say in this, if that is a relevant metric_ 

[cypherdoc]

no, it actually doesn't.  you should make a video concerning your arguments and let the community view it.

this is actually an important point.  Gavin is actually someone i'd let babysit my kid.

How are personal issues relevant to choosing the right technical solution again? Maybe we should invite your normal babysitter, what he/she has to say in this, if that is a relevant metric_ 

yeah, i know its sounds a bit over the top but this is an important issue.

i'm not sure you can disentangle the technical from the personal issues here despite what we'd like to think.  integrity does play a role.

[Andrew Vorobyov]

Gavin is actually someone i'd let babysit my kid.

Bring your baby sitter to choose BIP... your are so stupid.. sorry for offense..

Next time ask dick size of the developers... on camera... with ruler

[Killdozer]

i'm not sure you can disentangle the technical from the personal issues here despite what we'd like to think.  integrity does play a role.

Yes, there is some true to this, especially when it comes to extremes. But what can happen on the other hand is someone being excluded from the project because he didn't agree with the project leader on one issue, and the project leader happens to have more friends here on the forum than that person. That is not right either. This is not the "surviver" after all, where you must form alliences and win over friends to get somewhere, this is supposed to be won by the best solution, not the best person. Just sayin.

[cypherdoc]

for me personally, Gavin was a huge reason i decided to support Bitcoin.  i graduated from a top notch graduate institution and as snooty as it might sound, he being a Princeton graduate does carry some credibility.  its a vetting process whether we like it or not.

there are many brilliant people here on the Forum.  Luke is obviously one of them.  but i would never put my support behind even THE most brilliant if i never met them and had a chance to evaluate their integrity.

brilliance can be used for subversion.

just sayin' as well.

[casascius]

How are personal issues relevant to choosing the right technical solution again? Maybe we should invite your normal babysitter, what he/she has to say in this, if that is a relevant metric_  

Luke's technical solutions are generally based on some sort of pattern orthodoxy and completely disregard anything practical.

There is no dispute over whether BIP 16 and BIP 17 will accomplish the desired multisignature feature.  The difference between the two is in what kinds of problems we should anticipate going forward.  This is a practical problem, more so than a technical one.  I trust Gavin with the foresight on this far more than Luke.  Gavin will almost certainly be around to provide solid direction toward solving any problem that pops up.  Luke most certainly will not.

Luke is still stuck trying to get the world to count in base 16, oblivious to what kind of practical problems such a change would involve, and persists in doing it today.  Imagine the confusion and resource waste that already surrounds using US units and metric together, and square it.  Luke is definitely not the person whose vision I would trust.

Luke possesses a bunch of wonderful skills, but extremely poor judgment.  Luke's proposal would have to be breathtakingly better than the one Gavin supports for me to support him on it, and yet it is not.

[Andrew Vorobyov]

for me personally, Gavin was a huge reason i decided to support Bitcoin.  i graduated from a top notch graduate institution and as snooty as it might sound, he being a Princeton graduate does carry some credibility.  its a vetting process whether we like it or not.

there are many brilliant people here on the Forum.  Luke is obviously one of them.  but i would never put my support behind even THE most brilliant if i never met them and had a chance to evaluate their integrity.

brilliance can be used for subversion.

just sayin' as well.

WTF you are talking about? USA elections still far away...

you want to convince me that Gavin is a good father ( I saw his album ) and Luke was jerking when he was 18  and smoking weed every other day.. this is why BIP 16 is better???

[Andrew Vorobyov]

Luke possesses a bunch of wonderful skills, but extremely poor judgment.

You must put fat IMHO after your words..

You guys starting to behave like a bitches that decide which of the guys will spend more money on them....

[Kluge]

for me personally, Gavin was a huge reason i decided to support Bitcoin.  i graduated from a top notch graduate institution and as snooty as it might sound, he being a Princeton graduate does carry some credibility.  its a vetting process whether we like it or not.

there are many brilliant people here on the Forum.  Luke is obviously one of them.  but i would never put my support behind even THE most brilliant if i never met them and had a chance to evaluate their integrity.

brilliance can be used for subversion.

just sayin' as well.

WTF you are talking about? USA elections still far away...

you want to convince me that Gavin is a good father ( I saw his album ) and Luke was jerking when he was 18  and smoking weed every other day.. this is why BIP 16 is better???

I think we're now talking about who to throw off the Bitcoin development bus (and who to anoint as the supreme, ultimate, forever, etc. etc. dictator of Bitcoin client development), as if we have a say or are involved with Bitcoin's development on that level. I would still prefer to see a fist-fight to the death.