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Author Topic: [2014-05-23] Video: Andreas Antonopoulos - Government not a threat to Bitcoin  (Read 878 times)
LiteCoinGuy
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May 23, 2014, 11:30:38 AM
 #1

Andreas Antonopoulos - Government not a threat to Bitcoin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEWdPe6uACg

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May 23, 2014, 07:26:21 PM
 #2

Andreas is the man. And his point about about unit bias is a good one. As a community, we really need to push for bitcoins to be universally denominated in mBTC or maybe even microBTC. The psychology behind this is more important than we are letting on.
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May 23, 2014, 08:00:40 PM
 #3

Andreas is the best. I'm so happy we have an intelligent, interesting and passionate guy leading the way for bitcoin. I think Andreas should do all public speaking for bitcoin, he's better than all the others.
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May 23, 2014, 11:17:54 PM
 #4

He should be a lobbyist... but the Government can definitely make life difficult for coin holders (ask the Chinese) 
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May 24, 2014, 04:18:56 AM
 #5

Date is wrong; this video is from the 21st.

He should be a lobbyist...
LOL! That's like saying Frodo should be an Orc from Mordor!


but the Government can definitely make life difficult for coin holders (ask the Chinese) 

You're obviously new around here so I'll share a secret with you; the governments of the world can only make things difficult for the people who would like to trade bitcoins into fiat currencies.

The number of people who want their fiat currencies back is dwindeling. Bitcoin is simply too superior for smart people to want to revert back from.

In the end, there can be only one.

Luke Parker
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May 24, 2014, 04:53:51 PM
 #6

Date is wrong; this video is from the 21st.

He should be a lobbyist...
LOL! That's like saying Frodo should be an Orc from Mordor!


but the Government can definitely make life difficult for coin holders (ask the Chinese) 

You're obviously new around here so I'll share a secret with you; the governments of the world can only make things difficult for the people who would like to trade bitcoins into fiat currencies.

The number of people who want their fiat currencies back is dwindeling. Bitcoin is simply too superior for smart people to want to revert back from.

In the end, there can be only one.

You are being very naive, governments can not only create high friction on the interchange of fiat/btc, but ultimately they WILL adapt to the threat and legislate to slow BTC down (look at china if you don't think thats possible), and then finally when capitulation comes (as it must eventually) they WILL legislate to survive. So if that means fully adopting BTC, paying your taxes in BTC thats what will happen. These people that dream the dollar and US government are just going to vanish in a puff of BTC smoke, are just that, dreamers.

What I don't fully understand at the moment is why key governments are not hedging their bets by accumulating BTC before their fiat crash comes.
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May 24, 2014, 05:51:54 PM
 #7

You are being very naive, governments can not only create high friction on the interchange of fiat/btc, but ultimately they WILL adapt to the threat and legislate to slow BTC down (look at china if you don't think thats possible), and then finally when capitulation comes (as it must eventually) they WILL legislate to survive.
LOL; Legislating math. What a swell idea!  Roll Eyes

"Senate house joint bill restricting the use of 2 plus 2 to only equal 5 has been passed in bipartisan committee."

-And _I'm_ the naive one?   Grin

They might try of course, but it hasn't been working out so well for them with bittorrent and cryptography in general. All legislation attempts in those two areas, which are not coincidentally also pioneered by fellow cypherpunks, have been easily ignored.


So if that means fully adopting BTC, paying your taxes in BTC thats what will happen. These people that dream the dollar and US government are just going to vanish in a puff of BTC smoke, are just that, dreamers.
So you still don't have a clue how to use bitcoin yet? It works person to person with no middleman bro. There's nothing they can do to change that.

Bitcoin cannot be limited in any shape or fashion. Dollars can; Bitcoin cannot. You can write more code, but I won't decide to download your code. That's all there is to it. Once you decide to use only bitcoins, and start Earning bitcoins instead of dollars, your finances cannot be controlled, period. It's literally impossible without some kind of global mind control ray gun.

They can 'fully adopt' it all they want and I'll thank them for doing so. That means they'll pump the price of a single bitcoin up beyond $100,000 or more and I'll gain wealth while they lose it. Thanks government!

Full government adoption doesn't have any downsides for us at all; they might think they're in control of it, but they can't touch the code that people use and therefore can't gain control. When they decide to dump all their holdings? Yes! More cheap coins for us, and they've already legitimized it to the world. Simply no downsides at all.


What I don't fully understand at the moment is why key governments are not hedging their bets by accumulating BTC before their fiat crash comes.
Because they know if that the more they buy, the faster the price goes up, and the sooner they lose control of their fiat monopoly. If I were in charge of preserving the fiat empire right now, (and I wanted to do so) then I'd do exactly what they are doing... Downplaying it as much as they can in the media... That's their best possible weapon despite the fact it has no chance of winning long-term.

Luke Parker
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May 24, 2014, 06:05:41 PM
 #8

In china 34% of the population probably more uses VPN XOR like tools , witch means there is NO PATTERN in the data stream  , DPI can only work when there are known headers , if not present DPI can not work.
34 % of chineese use VPN xor like programs for accessing facebook etc etc.
thats about 454.800.000 people!
Source 
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/21/privacy-tools-censorship-online-anonymity-tools
So my guess is china is not that effected were western people who don't have a clue how to avoid censorship.
freak out while chineese  know how to wisper.

 



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howardb
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May 24, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
 #9

You are being very naive, governments can not only create high friction on the interchange of fiat/btc, but ultimately they WILL adapt to the threat and legislate to slow BTC down (look at china if you don't think thats possible), and then finally when capitulation comes (as it must eventually) they WILL legislate to survive.
LOL; Legislating math. What a swell idea!  Roll Eyes

"Senate house joint bill restricting the use of 2 plus 2 to only equal 5 has been passed in bipartisan committee."

-And _I'm_ the naive one?   Grin

They might try of course, but it hasn't been working out so well for them with bittorrent and cryptography in general. All legislation attempts in those two areas, which are not coincidentally also pioneered by fellow cypherpunks, have been easily ignored.


So if that means fully adopting BTC, paying your taxes in BTC thats what will happen. These people that dream the dollar and US government are just going to vanish in a puff of BTC smoke, are just that, dreamers.
So you still don't have a clue how to use bitcoin yet? It works person to person with no middleman bro. There's nothing they can do to change that.

Bitcoin cannot be limited in any shape or fashion. Dollars can; Bitcoin cannot. You can write more code, but I won't decide to download your code. That's all there is to it. Once you decide to use only bitcoins, and start Earning bitcoins instead of dollars, your finances cannot be controlled, period. It's literally impossible without some kind of global mind control ray gun.

They can 'fully adopt' it all they want and I'll thank them for doing so. That means they'll pump the price of a single bitcoin up beyond $100,000 or more and I'll gain wealth while they lose it. Thanks government!

Full government adoption doesn't have any downsides for us at all; they might think they're in control of it, but they can't touch the code that people use and therefore can't gain control. When they decide to dump all their holdings? Yes! More cheap coins for us, and they've already legitimized it to the world. Simply no downsides at all.


What I don't fully understand at the moment is why key governments are not hedging their bets by accumulating BTC before their fiat crash comes.
Because they know if that the more they buy, the faster the price goes up, and the sooner they lose control of their fiat monopoly. If I were in charge of preserving the fiat empire right now, (and I wanted to do so) then I'd do exactly what they are doing... Downplaying it as much as they can in the media... That's their best possible weapon despite the fact it has no chance of winning long-term.

Your arrogance is breathtaking 'bro', so much so that I hardly know where to begin, or even whether to bother arguing back.

It's a common simplistic (and patronising) argument to say "you can't legislate math", it's a mask of bravado that seeks to downplay alternative views by belittling them.

Of course it's patently obvious you cannot legislate math, but an economy is not just made up of math, it's real people, and they CAN be controlled.
If (say) the Chinese government makes it a capital crime for an individual to hold bitcoin, you can guarentee 99.99% of the chinese population will say it's not worth the risk.

As far as bitcoin having no middleman, so what? middlemen (banks etc) have been the constructs of control that past governments have used to control the flow of money. But you really believe they are not capable of introducing new control points?? So what happens if US government legislates that all bitcoin addresses must have registered ownership like bank accounts (say at some government website) and that it is hereby illegal for a US citizen or legal entity to transmit BTC to or from any address that is not registered?? Tell me why they can't do that "bro"! Just because software supports bypassing the law, does not mean the majority of people would be willing to do so!

With regard to your reasoning on why governments are not buying bitcoin, it seems to completely miss the point I was making.  When BTC reaches critical mass/tipping point there is going to be a very very sudden and massive shift of world wealth from fiat to bitcoin (this is basic chaos theory), where those still holding fiat cannot get out fast enough, and those holding bitcoin wont sell. No matter how likely or remote you view that scenario, as a government you must acknowlege that the risk exists and take steps to protect the nations wealth if that day arrives. I was merely suggesting that as a chancellor of exchequer I would probably be thinking that a billion or two dropped into bitcoin at this stage would be a nice hedge agaist a total devaluation of my native fiat £.

As to why it actually doesn't seem to be happening, I suspect it's more that forward looking governments, (US/Canada/Germany/UK/Sweden etc) realise they can ensure that wealth transfer happens to their countries by making sure their countries are the first adopters of bitcoin. They simply realise that backward thinking countries who try to slow it down (China, Russia etc) will be the bag holders when tipping point is achieved, and thus a seismic shift of world wealth will be kept in the west.
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May 25, 2014, 12:35:35 AM
 #10

Howardb,

The only arrogance here is yours. Please catch up on the exciting history of this very topic here.

Luke Parker
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May 25, 2014, 01:31:26 AM
 #11

Howardb,

The only arrogance here is yours. Please catch up on the exciting history of this very topic here.

Wow, laziest retort of all time. You are clearly not worth the virtual ink.
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May 25, 2014, 01:38:04 AM
 #12

Let me bring the topic back to the video interview....

The interview is a bit over half an hour. First half is about general bitcoin stuff and Andreas' view of bitcoin protocol being more than a currency. The second half is the interesting part. They talked how bitcoin should not be measured in the fiat it displaced, just like the internet cannot be measured in the number of phone lines and fax machines it replaced. The wild part is about bitcoin swallowing devaluing currencies when the local military prefer bitcoin  Cheesy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEWdPe6uACg
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May 25, 2014, 03:54:02 AM
 #13

Let me bring the topic back to the video interview....

Thank you.


The interview is a bit over half an hour. First half is about general bitcoin stuff and Andreas' view of bitcoin protocol being more than a currency. The second half is the interesting part. They talked how bitcoin should not be measured in the fiat it displaced, just like the internet cannot be measured in the number of phone lines and fax machines it replaced. The wild part is about bitcoin swallowing devaluing currencies when the local military prefer bitcoin  Cheesy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEWdPe6uACg

The thing here is that people weren't buying internet usage with fax machines. People are buying bitcoin with fiat. It makes sense intuitively to measure bitcoin value with fiat where it is ludicrous to measure internet value with phones lines and fax machines. I understand that somewhere far off in the future it is possible for bitcoin to universally replace fiat, but unless/ until that happens, how else shall we measure its worth?
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May 25, 2014, 04:28:46 AM
 #14

Let me bring the topic back to the video interview....

Thank you.


The interview is a bit over half an hour. First half is about general bitcoin stuff and Andreas' view of bitcoin protocol being more than a currency. The second half is the interesting part. They talked how bitcoin should not be measured in the fiat it displaced, just like the internet cannot be measured in the number of phone lines and fax machines it replaced. The wild part is about bitcoin swallowing devaluing currencies when the local military prefer bitcoin  Cheesy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEWdPe6uACg

The thing here is that people weren't buying internet usage with fax machines. People are buying bitcoin with fiat. It makes sense intuitively to measure bitcoin value with fiat where it is ludicrous to measure internet value with phones lines and fax machines. I understand that somewhere far off in the future it is possible for bitcoin to universally replace fiat, but unless/ until that happens, how else shall we measure its worth?
I agree, I thought Andreas strayed a bit there in his normally very solid logic. It is both intuitive and valid to compare btc with other known measures of value like fiat currencies and gold. I think the mental leap that many people do not make is that all nmoves are relative, so a rise in the value of BTC is equally a drop in the value of fiats.
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May 25, 2014, 08:43:39 PM
 #15

I was just giving a summary to those who haven't watched it, and of course get them interested  Grin

I did say parts of the interview was "wild" and I didn't think smaller countries could give up local fiat with such a simple mechanism. However, I do agree that it is inappropriate to estimate the future economic significance of bitcoin by its market capital growth. It is like trying to measure the significance of the internet at its dawn, without ever dreamt of mobile internet, apps, social network, or crypto currencies.

The interview is not very "educational", but it got people thinking, and I enjoyed it.
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May 25, 2014, 09:07:55 PM
 #16

I doubt that banks & Government will simply turn their cheek on this threat... at minimum I would expect a large media fud campaign and banks colluding to making converting to fiat difficult... A friend recently had his account closed due to dealing in btc.
There will be a dependency on banks for a long time (still have to pay our bills).
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May 25, 2014, 09:58:05 PM
 #17

I doubt that banks & Government will simply turn their cheek on this threat... at minimum I would expect a large media fud campaign and banks colluding to making converting to fiat difficult... A friend recently had his account closed due to dealing in btc.
There will be a dependency on banks for a long time (still have to pay our bills).


My prediction: Banks will simply buy a share, and possibly lend them or otherwise.. just incorporate into their business.  Government will still be clueless about bitcoin in 2024. China still banning bitcoin

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May 25, 2014, 10:25:33 PM
 #18

I doubt that banks & Government will simply turn their cheek on this threat... at minimum I would expect a large media fud campaign and banks colluding to making converting to fiat difficult... A friend recently had his account closed due to dealing in btc.
There will be a dependency on banks for a long time (still have to pay our bills).


You think Government is one???
And all banks are one? forget about it.
Some banks are pro bitcoin , some are not.
Bitcoin will only remove CENTRAL banks , the service of banks will stay.


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