rpietila Altcoin Observer

[Este Nuno]

PoS is broken. See these posts by gmaxwell (nullc).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6798997

https://pay.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1uoq6e/what_do_you_guys_think_of_proof_of_stake_mining/cek8epc?context=3

Peercoin's PoS implementation has nothing to do with NXT's PoS implementation.

PoS may be broken in one system, but perfectly safe in another.

Just like PoW may be susceptible to 51% attack and successful double spending and selfish mining in Bitcoin, but not susceptible to those attacks in Myriadcoin due to its 5 independant PoW algos.

Not to mention PPCoin/Peercoin is around 2 years old and was the first implementation of PoS ever. It was a trailblazer but it's not really relevant to discussing modern day PoS systems.

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[smooth]

PoS is broken. See these posts by gmaxwell (nullc).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6798997

https://pay.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1uoq6e/what_do_you_guys_think_of_proof_of_stake_mining/cek8epc?context=3

Peercoin's PoS implementation has nothing to do with NXT's PoS implementation.

PoS may be broken in one system, but perfectly safe in another.

Just like PoW may be susceptible to 51% attack and successful double spending and selfish mining in Bitcoin, but not susceptible to those attacks in Myriadcoin due to its 5 independant PoW algos.

It is true there are different variations of PoS. None of them have been convincingly shown to be secure most especially not the versions used in 99% of the new PoS shitcoins that appear daily.

[devphp]

It's sad that respected developers arm these newbies with irrelevant half-truths and these newbies go spread those on the forums. In the end, they lose, because they start believing these now irrelevant half-truths and miss out on good investments.

None of them have been convincingly shown to be secure

Oh well, what do you think are the criteria for them to be considered secure by you, personally? How long should this or that PoS implementation be around to prove it's secure?

[Este Nuno]

People accept the risk of the theoretical >50% attack when they use PoW networks.

At the moment there is a similar theoretical risk of a 'Nothing at Stake' attack on a PoS network.

People accept the risk of what a >50% attacker could do to a PoW network if they were a non-rational(economically speaking) bad actor. So why do people dismiss PoS simply because it currently has the possibility of a theoretical non-rational attack?

Seems very contradictory to me.

[aminorex]

Nothing is 'secure' except relative to a threat model.  When people say PoS is insecure, as best I can tell, they mean their personal threat model defeats PoS.

PoS vulnerability does not strictly depend on an arational/irrational actor because of replays rolling back to before a liquidation of stake.

[hbadger]

People accept the risk of the theoretical >50% attack when they use PoW networks.

At the moment there is a similar theoretical risk of a 'Nothing at Stake' attack on a PoS network.

People accept the risk of what a >50% attacker could do to a PoW network if they were a non-rational(economically speaking) bad actor. So why do people dismiss PoS simply because it currently has the possibility of a theoretical non-rational attack?

Seems very contradictory to me.

Except it's not theoretical, and it's not non-rational. Had you bothered reading the links I posted you would have learned that Peercoin was successfully attacked this way.

You don't even need to actually own any coins to attack a PoS coin. You can use coins you don't own anymore, meaning you can't even use the argument "Why would a stakeholder want to destroy the value of his own stake?".

[thefunkybits]

Are charts allowed in here?

I'd like to point out a huge opportunity i see in CRYPTCOIN. As you'll see in the charts below:

- Prices are down 10X from where they were less than a month ago
- Volume is starting to pick up again and we've had a solid breakout yesterday
- Orderbook is stacked heavily to the buy side

1 MONTH




1 WEEK




ORDERBOOK



Some info on CRYPT:
11 Million Coins Total, 3 Million in Circulation (Very Rare Coin!)
X11 algorithm (CPU & GPU mineable)
Block Time: 1.5 Minutes, 2.75% PoS interest annually
Current Block Reward: 31 CRYPT
Current Market Cap: $600,000

Anon feature without using master nodes is also in development

[uvt9]

.....
Anon feature without using master nodes is also in development

What kind of technology Cryptcoin using to protect user's privacy ? I can't find any information on official thread and website. The dev simply say it's "being implemented": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=618377.msg7516737#msg7516737

How can CRYPT be called anonymous coin if people can easily compile a rich list like this:
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/crypt/#!rich

Honestly i don't see any unique in this CRYPTCOIN, just a random POW/POS clone.

[thefunkybits]

i don't see any unique in this CRYPTCOIN, just a random POW/POS clone

For now sure, but looking at the charts we have an obvious breakout after a steep selloff. We can either ignore or accept the technical signals that are pointing to the upside.

[villabacho]

i don't see any unique in this CRYPTCOIN, just a random POW/POS clone

For now sure, but looking at the charts we have an obvious breakout after a steep selloff. We can either ignore or accept the technical signals that are pointing to the upside.

The reason I like this thread so far is that it concentrates mostly on fundamentals of coins.

Pleeeease no chart analysis :-)

[thefunkybits]

Pleeeease no chart analysis :-)

lol, ill be back here when the price has doubled (with pics)  


ps. the devs are still very active- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=618377.0

pss. read the whitepaper- http://cryptco.org/Cryptcoin-CryptCast-Anonymous-Whitepaper.pdf

[rpietila]

i don't see any unique in this CRYPTCOIN, just a random POW/POS clone

For now sure, but looking at the charts we have an obvious breakout after a steep selloff. We can either ignore or accept the technical signals that are pointing to the upside.

We mainly do not care about that kind of things in this thread.

Pumping is just a matter of having adequate capital and willing to expend energy. No pump advertisements here, thank you!

[illodin]

why was it even released?

Probably to inform people what changes they did to BlackCoin's PoS.

This was all that was really needed to make the changes known (admittedly they should have mentioned removing coin age in the summary..). It's barely more than a twitter post:

The proposed changes are intended to improve security in
BlackCoin’s PoS protocol and were made with optimization
in mind. With the new protocol possible attack vectors are
reduced to a minimum and the incentive to support the network
by having a full node running continuously is clearly increased.
This will allow BlackCoin and PoS to continue to scale for
mass adoption while plugging and mitigating potential risks.

I mean come on .. look at the last sentence and tell me that this isn't a marketing ad?

add: I'm sorry if this seems overly critical, blackcoin's done nothing to offend me and i'm not looking to bash it too hard. My point is that I've literally seen longer summaries on Hastelloy than this 'white paper'. The proposed solution is supposed to fix major technical flaws in PoS .. and maybe they have; however, I cannot point people to that paper and say "look how Blackcoin devs saved PoS!"

Yes, they could've just as well used these bullet points instead (source):

• Coin Age will no longer be a factor to generate Proof-of-Stake interest. There is a need for more nodes online and staking. More staking nodes will also speed up the BlackCoin network and transaction time. Do keep in mind the staking rewards are not affected by this change.
• The stake modifier will be changed at every modifier interval
• Further blockchain timestamp changes will be made to avoid Proof-of-Stake blocks from orphaning.
• BlackCoin will no longer be using the Scrypt algorithm for its Proof-of-Stake phase, and will revert back to SHA-256D. Using Scrypt offers no real advantages , and is in fact slower compared to some of the other alternatives.

[Este Nuno]

People accept the risk of the theoretical >50% attack when they use PoW networks.

At the moment there is a similar theoretical risk of a 'Nothing at Stake' attack on a PoS network.

People accept the risk of what a >50% attacker could do to a PoW network if they were a non-rational(economically speaking) bad actor. So why do people dismiss PoS simply because it currently has the possibility of a theoretical non-rational attack?

Seems very contradictory to me.

Except it's not theoretical, and it's not non-rational. Had you bothered reading the links I posted you would have learned that Peercoin was successfully attacked this way.

You don't even need to actually own any coins to attack a PoS coin. You can use coins you don't own anymore, meaning you can't even use the argument "Why would a stakeholder want to destroy the value of his own stake?".

Peercoin isn't relevant at this point and PoW coins have been attacked before too so the same logic applies.

From what I understand from the V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond discussion on the NXT forum there is a solution for this problem anyway.

Also, if you think that someone attacking the a PoS network is significantly more likely than someone mounting a >50% attack on a PoW network then that's fine as well and I'm not making an argument otherwise.

I just wanted to point out the apparent double standard of some people who consider the chance of a >50% attack not sufficient to warrant the dismissal of PoW as valid method while dismissing PoS due to a similar weakness at this time.

[othe]

Here is another good example of an attack against a PoS only coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=679791.msg7848188#msg7848188

To make it short they did a doublespend attack on a private fork and then unleashed it to the network, resulting in bittrex losing bitcoins.

The real problem is see with this is, if due to those attack the exchanges get bankrupt it will hurt a lot of innocent people who were just trading their coins there and thats bad for crypto in general...


Peercoin/Novacoin doent have this problem, as they are using the pow blocks to generate the pos hashes:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131940.0
and added centralized auto-checkpointing to it to secure it further (tho their system is still gameable, just harder).

Why do you say Peercoin isnt relevant? Its still the pos coin with the highest marketcap which is forked from bitcoin.

[Este Nuno]

Here is another good example of an attack against a PoS only coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=679791.msg7848188#msg7848188

To make it short they did a doublespend attack on a private fork and then unleashed it to the network, resulting in bittrex losing bitcoins.

The real problem is see with this is, if due to those attack the exchanges get bankrupt it will hurt a lot of innocent people who were just trading their coins there and thats bad for crypto in general...


Peercoin/Novacoin doent have this problem, as they are using the pow blocks to generate the pos hashes:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131940.0
and added centralized auto-checkpointing to it to secure it further (tho their system is still gameable, just harder).

Why do you say Peercoin isnt relevant? Its still the pos coin with the highest marketcap which is forked from bitcoin.

I would say that Peercoin is less relevant today because of two reasons: The first being that it's still under the central checkpointing scheme as far as I know. I have heard that it's been planned to remove it though, and that's a good thing. And the second reason is with NXT and now NEM coming soon I'm guessing Peercoin is going to have a hard time with such strong competitors. Maybe I'm wrong though. I don't have anything against Peercoin at all. It's just my current perception that it's not as relevant as it once was.

[thefunkybits]

i don't see any unique in this CRYPTCOIN, just a random POW/POS clone

For now sure, but looking at the charts we have an obvious breakout after a steep selloff. We can either ignore or accept the technical signals that are pointing to the upside.

We mainly do not care about that kind of things in this thread.

Pumping is just a matter of having adequate capital and willing to expend energy. No pump advertisements here, thank you!

I dont see CRYPT as a shit pump n dump clone (I believe we are seeing movement here because of fundamental reasons). This is a 2.0 gen x11 pow/pos anon coin trying to compete with DRK. I really think it has long term potential in terms of having a unique mixing algo - http://cryptco.org/Cryptcoin-CryptCast-Anonymous-Whitepaper.pdf.

cheers everybody  

[Este Nuno]

i don't see any unique in this CRYPTCOIN, just a random POW/POS clone

For now sure, but looking at the charts we have an obvious breakout after a steep selloff. We can either ignore or accept the technical signals that are pointing to the upside.

We mainly do not care about that kind of things in this thread.

Pumping is just a matter of having adequate capital and willing to expend energy. No pump advertisements here, thank you!

I dont see CRYPT as a shit pump n dump clone (I believe we are seeing movement here because of fundamental reasons). This is a 2.0 gen x11 pow/pos anon coin trying to compete with DRK. I really think it has long term potential in terms of having a unique mixing algo - http://cryptco.org/Cryptcoin-CryptCast-Anonymous-Whitepaper.pdf.

cheers everybody 

Yeah, I wouldn't dismiss CRYPT either. It has real development going on. Who knows if it can compete at the highest level with XMR ect. But it's legitimately trying to.

I haven't been following it recently though, has Mindfox come close to fully implementing anon yet?

[othe]

https://github.com/cryptcointeam/cryptcoin/commits/master

Their github has not a single update since launch, if thats what you call real development i cant help you.

[Este Nuno]

https://github.com/cryptcointeam/cryptcoin/commits/master

Their github has not a single update since launch, if thats what you call real development i cant help you.

From reading the thread before I got the impression that Mindfox was being paid by Moosa and others to develop their anonymity system. I know they released a new GUI wallet too.

Could be all bs, I don't know really. I don't own any or support the coin. But apparently Mindfox has some development experience in the altcoin world. Maybe I assumed too much, who knows.