rpietila Altcoin Observer

[bitcad4u]

The market is stupid enough to value XC and DRK

What "value" does DRK have compared to LTC?

Coins number adjusted, if LTC had 4.3mn coins (same as DRK) it would cost 60-70$. And these, for what? What does LTC offer compared to DRK?

and developed coin

What exactly have they developed?

Litecoin has developed user base and exchange base. Litecoin has developed strong network.  Litecoin is stronger than most think. 

[mmitech]

Anyone here care to take a stab at reading the DOGE tea leaves?  Down about 80% off the ATH currently but still over double the ATL.  I would expect it to rebound eventually but I am wondering if we will see it make it all the way down (or continue to fall below) the ATL again before the big bounce.  The high volume of mining rewards makes predicting this tricky for me since there are about 5x as many coins in circulation now than there were the last time we saw these prices.  The reddit community is still strong but the growth has definitely slowed over the months. The last I heard they were talking about twitch integration for tipping streamers.

doge was a nice joke and every joke gets old.

[AlexGR]

You seem like a smart man, so you would be wise to at least get an explanation directly from the XC developer.  The XC developer's identity is publicly known, unlike 99% of the coins.  AlexGR, although knowledgable, is a big Darkcoin holder and known to troll the XC thread constantly.  the fact is that XC developer, Dan Metcalf, has made quicker progress than any other "anon" coin. XC plans go way beyond just being an anon coin.  Here is the thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.20

1. The thread is moderated. Do you think I can just go in and troll it? Think again.

2. I'm not a big DRK holder. I do have some though

3. The concept of nodes and applications running on nodes is a vote of confidence to the DRK model.

4. Unlike you, I don't see conflict between anon coins. I own many of them because I believe in the anon market. More specifically I expect it to reach 10% of the transparent market. That means if the transparent market has a size of 10bn, the anon market will have a marketshare of 1bn. I am thus positioned in multiple anon coins to profit from this rise. My first milestone was 1% of the transparent market - and that's achieved with a combined marketcap of anoncoins being ~80mn right now, from something like 3 mn two months ago (2mn DRK / 1mn ANC).

5. I do see problem when a certain coin is more hype than actual stuff. XC's model is currently broken (trusted nodes = lost coins) and anonymity is not so anonymous (as chaeplin demonstrated by backtracing the transaction). So "quicker progress" is not what I'd call it.

[JakeThePanda]

You seem like a smart man, so you would be wise to at least get an explanation directly from the XC developer.  The XC developer's identity is publicly known, unlike 99% of the coins.  AlexGR, although knowledgable, is a big Darkcoin holder and known to troll the XC thread constantly.  the fact is that XC developer, Dan Metcalf, has made quicker progress than any other "anon" coin. XC plans go way beyond just being an anon coin.  Here is the thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.20

1. The thread is moderated. Do you think I can just go in and troll it? Think again.

2. I'm not a big DRK holder. I do have some though

3. The concept of nodes and applications running on nodes is a vote of confidence to the DRK model.

4. Unlike you, I don't see conflict between anon coins. I own many of them because I believe in the anon market. More specifically I expect it to reach 10% of the transparent market. That means if the transparent market has a size of 10bn, the anon market will have a marketshare of 1bn. I am thus positioned in multiple anon coins to profit from this rise. My first milestone was 1% of the transparent market - and that's achieved with a combined marketcap of anoncoins being ~80mn right now, from something like 3 mn two months ago (2mn DRK / 1mn ANC).

5. I do see problem when a certain coin is more hype than actual stuff. XC's model is currently broken (trusted nodes = lost coins) and anonymity is not so anonymous (as chaeplin demonstrated by backtracing the transaction). So "quicker progress" is not what I'd call it.

I'm not going to get into a conversation with you as I already mentioned you are much more knowledgeable than me. 
1) You are a known troll and FUD spreader from the old thread and not many posts are being deleted from the new thread.  It's still semi-trollable. I don't have the knowledge to argue with you, but your motives are sketchy.
2) Maybe you aren't a big DRK holder, but you conveniently have your DRK address at the bottom of every post you make.
3) Nothing to say here
4) I don't have any conflict and I don't know how you come to that conclusion.  I own DRK and Monero.
5) As the dev already mentioned, it's still testing.  You are definitely fudding the results and you know it.

[AlexGR]

1) You are a known troll and FUD spreader from the old thread and not many posts are being deleted from the new thread.

If I state my opinion that the trusted model is flawed, it's not FUD. If an intermediate node can steal the money it's a train wreck waiting to happen. And it happened when the first coins started to disappear - which is not what should be happening.

4) I don't have any conflict and I don't know how you come to that conclusion.  I own DRK and Monero.

I'm implying that you perceive me more as a binary-type of guy where if I support DRK I will not support something else. I will support anything that is good or anything that has decent prospects. The fact that I have DRKs doesn't prevent me from hedging it with MRO, XC, etc etc. I do have some XCs... although I dumped most of them at 0.004+ when I saw the copied code. It wasn't bad for profit as I bought these at 0.00007 (>60-70x).

5) As the dev already mentioned, it's still testing.  You are definitely fudding the results and you know it.

The practical implementation is working on a theoretical model which is flawed (trusting the nodes for forwarding the money). No matter the version number of the program, the underlying theory is problematic.

Let's just say if you want to make a rocket to go to the moon, and you are pointing it towards the core of the earth, no matter how many revisions you do to the rocket, you'll still not go to the moon. It's not the rocket implementation which is hampering your efforts. It's the flawed underlying premise that the rocket should be pointing down

That's the nature of trusted solutions. They have dependencies and problems arising out of these dependencies. DRK on the other hand is trustless in that it doesn't move money around nodes in the hope of them moving money to the next node etc etc. Nodes simply perform the signing of transactions. The transaction is either signed, or it's not. So money can't be lost to the node.

My assessment is that eventually, Dan will have to reconsider the approach or try to enforce this approach with hacks which will get uglier and uglier as time progresses. The "learning trust" system cannot solve the problem.

Take it as FUD, take it as an assessment, take it as whatever you want. That's what I believe right now and why I'm not increasing my stake at XC unless I see something from the dev that can give DRK a run for its money.

[bitcoin-world.de]

most advanced coin is definitly NXT and Mastercoin. It has that what ethereum and Bitshares want make true this year. I have not the same opinion like the thread starter. I think NXT can also be a currency, but with an asset exchange and this coin is 100% premined, but the advantage of that is that it dont consume much power like bitcoin and has a better security and thats two important things. I see NXT could be the next 10$ Coin because of the features, the security, the asset exchange which is not centralized and many Killer Features will come in the next time! This is my opinion and my experience from all this 400 Coins out there.

But test it by yourself and try out NXT. After that you can make your own decision and if you ask me, when you see the NXT Wallet you think that Bitcoin is in Alpha Stadium and NXT in Beta or RC, because of the features and bitcoin does not give any features except the transfer of bitcoins.

So the most important projects of 2014 are NXT, Bitshares, Maidsafe and Ethereum. We will see later.

[Its About Sharing]

Anyone here care to take a stab at reading the DOGE tea leaves?  Down about 80% off the ATH currently but still over double the ATL.  I would expect it to rebound eventually but I am wondering if we will see it make it all the way down (or continue to fall below) the ATL again before the big bounce.  The high volume of mining rewards makes predicting this tricky for me since there are about 5x as many coins in circulation now than there were the last time we saw these prices.  The reddit community is still strong but the growth has definitely slowed over the months. The last I heard they were talking about twitch integration for tipping streamers.

The inflationary model of Doge is not attractive to me. Sure, it is nice to have a fun coin to tip someone .05 cents (1000 Doge). But that is also, at least at this point in time, a joke.
Now maybe if you loaded up a wallet with thousands of Doge and you used it as a payment system for reading content, but we can basically do that with bitcoin and an app for
handling the micropayments - no, not ideal, but functional at this time.

It just doesn't feel right to me. Perhaps we can learn from it (e.g. low fees for micro payments). As far as an investment, well, anything can happen, perhaps the masses jump on, but nothing
happened on Facebook and it was integrated into a payment app there I read. I'd look for something more serious.

[tupelo]

DOGE has seen quite a few pumps and although I sympathise with it's uncomplicated nature, the current price decline was long overdue imho. Possibly it can follow in bitcoin's recent foot steps

[elviselvis101]

1) You are a known troll and FUD spreader from the old thread and not many posts are being deleted from the new thread.

If I state my opinion that the trusted model is flawed, it's not FUD. If an intermediate node can steal the money it's a train wreck waiting to happen. And it happened when the first coins started to disappear - which is not what should be happening.

4) I don't have any conflict and I don't know how you come to that conclusion.  I own DRK and Monero.

I'm implying that you perceive me more as a binary-type of guy where if I support DRK I will not support something else. I will support anything that is good or anything that has decent prospects. The fact that I have DRKs doesn't prevent me from hedging it with MRO, XC, etc etc. I do have some XCs... although I dumped most of them at 0.004+ when I saw the copied code. It wasn't bad for profit as I bought these at 0.00007 (>60-70x).

5) As the dev already mentioned, it's still testing.  You are definitely fudding the results and you know it.

The practical implementation is working on a theoretical model which is flawed (trusting the nodes for forwarding the money). No matter the version number of the program, the underlying theory is problematic.

Let's just say if you want to make a rocket to go to the moon, and you are pointing it towards the core of the earth, no matter how many revisions you do to the rocket, you'll still not go to the moon. It's not the rocket implementation which is hampering your efforts. It's the flawed underlying premise that the rocket should be pointing down

That's the nature of trusted solutions. They have dependencies and problems arising out of these dependencies. DRK on the other hand is trustless in that it doesn't move money around nodes in the hope of them moving money to the next node etc etc. Nodes simply perform the signing of transactions. The transaction is either signed, or it's not. So money can't be lost to the node.

My assessment is that eventually, Dan will have to reconsider the approach or try to enforce this approach with hacks which will get uglier and uglier as time progresses. The "learning trust" system cannot solve the problem.

Take it as FUD, take it as an assessment, take it as whatever you want. That's what I believe right now and why I'm not increasing my stake at XC unless I see something from the dev that can give DRK a run for its money.

Exact copy of my thoughts on those coins.

[huhliki.k]

I have paid the market price for all of my bitcoins (between $3 and $650) and also for my MROs (BTC0.0018...BTC0.0050). Therefore I am an example of a holder that is responsible, and will only dump the coins if there are declining fundamentals or the price clearly overshoots the level that I believe is medium-term supported by the market.

What assumptions about the price Monero in the medium-term (after about three months), and what assumptions about the price in the long-term (about a year)?

[skylys]

Is a coin must be mined,then it can call  a "currency"?
I think NXT is a great coin.

[rpietila]

What assumptions about the price Monero in the medium-term (after about three months), and what assumptions about the price in the long-term (about a year)?

I am happy that I don't see a short-term pump&dump coming in MRO price, rather I envision that the userbase grows exponentially and the number of new mintage comes down exponentially. Even if the exponent is not that big, over time it works out to nice gains.

If more people share my perception that MRO is the #2 coin, it will become that also pricewise (currently #23). If 0.1BTC (currently 0.003BTC) wasn't possible, I would not be investing. I am not stupid.

[devphp]

Please give reasons why you deleted this post?

There is no freedom of speech in this thread as stated in red in the original post.

[devphp]

honest open crypto discussion.

Open-mindedness is a pre-requisite for any honest and objective discussion.

[rpietila]

windjc, make your own thread and don't post again. I don't want here people that I have on ignore due to their prior bad behaviour.

[vokain]

no, hence my deletion

[rpietila]

windjc, make your own thread and don't post again. I don't want here people that I have on ignore due to their prior bad behaviour.

You don't have me on ignore. Anybody who reads these forums knows this. You couldn't have renigged on a pubic bet you made with me just a week or so ago.

I am sure it's a terrible blow to you but during the aftermath of that discussion about a bet, I said I put you on ignore, I did put you on ignore, and I never once checked what you have written, until now, because I can only delete a post that I "show" first.

As for the bad behaviour, I clearly said I have zero tolerance for idiots who don't understand the importance of security when dealing with large sums of bitcoins. That meant you.

Go away, don't post here again. I already reported you to moderator.

[Jungian]

What assumptions about the price Monero in the medium-term (after about three months), and what assumptions about the price in the long-term (about a year)?

I am happy that I don't see a short-term pump&dump coming in MRO price, rather I envision that the userbase grows exponentially and the number of new mintage comes down exponentially. Even if the exponent is not that big, over time it works out to nice gains.

If more people share my perception that MRO is the #2 coin, it will become that also pricewise (currently #23). If 0.1BTC (currently 0.003BTC) wasn't possible, I would not be investing. I am not stupid.

I own MRO too, but this thread seems like a big pump for MRO. Discussing other alts gets posts deleted.

Of course you do  

NXT is a know scam from the very beginning, totally centralized currency in the hands of 71(?) people, no one will take it seriously ever no matter how inflated the marketcap appears.

I own MRO. What part of that do you not understand?

But POS does not mean scam. You could have bought in.

A currency doesnt need to be "mined". This is a fallacy.

Average users around the world don't care. Non-crypto businesses dont care. Decentralized is decentralized. Only someone with an agenda would ignore what NXT is doing simply because it doesnt fall into the world of bitcoin clone blockchains.

I believe you own Monero, its only smart to own it, so I'm not surprised, that was my point.

You seem to want people to think NXT is a legit POS currency, where POS is actually a legitimate decentralized method of generating coins, its not what NXT do, NXT forging is not POS, NXT is a scam, it's one of the most complex long-running scams in the crypto-world, and I'm actually offended you try push it otherwise.

How is NXT centralized and how is forging not POS? I'm not 100% familiar with how these things work under the hood.

[rpietila]

NXT was IPO'ed, which is the same as 100% premine. It is not, and cannot be a currency. It is a share of the company. Shares are rather liquid instruments whose value may go up and down, but they are still not money. There are other threads that concentrate on this rather contested topic.

It is centralized, because the IPO was conducted in haste with <100 participants owning the whole stock.

Forging may be == PoS, but in my understanding PoS itself is a faulty concept.

[Its About Sharing]

Nekomata - I don't think NXT is a scam coin, as I trust the guys over at Let's Talk Bitcoin (podcast) to have caught that and not allowed them on their podcast. I mean money doesn't seem like it will buy Andreas Antonopolis and company there. The technology appears solid. I do see the coin as more of an IPO coin than a typical Crypto and perhaps that is where the "problems" start.

Now, that IPO type model (which will also be Etherium I believe) isn't necessarily a scam just because it breaks accepted "rules". We will see in the end, but it is a difficult thing bringing coins to market that don't just have settings changed and are actually Scripting language based Cryptos that takes months of development (and eventually years) to have on the market.

I think to call a coin a scam without looking at the actual technical merit, is a bit like saying "Drugs are bad." and not differentiating them into subcategories, effects, legality, etc.
Lets not trivialize something that we are just beginning to understand by labeling and flattening it into something much less than it is.
If you want to talk about the distrubution, then fine. But that is one aspect of it. If broken it will fail, but if it is just different, you may
miss the boat due to preconceptions.

IAS