rpietila Altcoin Observer

[Keyboard-Mash]

its hard to take this thread seriously with no mention of PeerCoin

then againg the concept is waaaaay out infront, and the really loooooong game.

I've rarely looked into peercoin other than maybe its market cap .. nobody really talks about it. After you mentioned it, I decided to check it out. I go to the main website .. $0 marketcap, 0 ppc total supply, whitepaper link 404's, myth 3 isn't even in english, github is almost barren I'll keep digging on it ... but do you have good sources of information that are still around for it so I don't fumble around aimlessly?

[Its About Sharing]

the issue is long solved and was much smaller than expected.

I think the biggest advantage of counterparty protocol is that you do not need to go the way btc-> nxt -> asset. you can simply buy the asset with btc.

the "currency" (xcp) of the protocol has a completely different function. it can be taken in escrow on the blockchain (until now impossible with bitcoin). It will be probably in short term be used for betting, mid-term for CFDs and long term as insurance.

BTW I used NXT AE and I was quite impressed by the easy to use functionality as well as the speed. kudos. 

Ok, if the issue was solved, that's fine, I actually liked XCP when I used it in its early stages, although it was quite buggy then, until NXT AE came along. XCP can survive, at least as long as Bitcoin survives, but you always have to worry about 51% attacks and such. With NXT you just don't have those worries and time between blocks is much shorter, so trading is closer to centralized exchange speed of trading.

FIAT->BTC->NXT->Asset will soon be shortned to FIAT->NXT->Asset, as there are fiat gateways under way, that's just a matter of time.

Then I am looking forward to
FIAT->NXT->Asset->Qora!

I installed the NXT Wallet. Wow! This is interesting. A decentralized asset exchange wallet and more. Gonna be fun to check this out.
Where is there more information on Qora, etc? I'm wet behind the ears here.

Thx in advance,
IAS

[devphp]

I installed the NXT Wallet. Wow! This is interesting. A decentralized asset exchange wallet and more. Gonna be fun to check this out.
Where is there more information on Qora, etc? I'm wet behind the ears here.

Thx in advance,
IAS

Qora asset id is 2950240446121913764

You go to Asset exchange, Add Asset button at the top right corner.

The Qora asset is operated manually by Dzarmush, look him up on Qora thread.

[Its About Sharing]

I installed the NXT Wallet. Wow! This is interesting. A decentralized asset exchange wallet and more. Gonna be fun to check this out.
Where is there more information on Qora, etc? I'm wet behind the ears here.

Thx in advance,
IAS

Qora asset id is 2950240446121913764

You go to Asset exchange, Add Asset button at the top right corner.

The Qora asset is operated manually by Dzarmush, look him up on Qora thread.

I wonder if the asset exchange has better overall prices than an online exchange. Anyone do any price comparisons?

I am really really shocked and impressed with that wallet. Not super intuitive but a live decentralized exchange right now, just wow.

IAS

[Anotheranonlol]

What I don't understand is how one can benefit using an alt-coin platform to issue digital tokens (shares, bonds, vouchers, etc), when this is possible using bitcoin directly (colored coins / open-assets protocol).  Is it just that some altcoins are further along in their user interfaces?

The hugely beneficial thing about colored coins (in addition to not requiring one to purchase an altcoin) is that they can be traded in a trustless p2p manner for bitcoins (using coinjoin).  

Firstly,  In the case of counterparty you can utilise the protocol without interacting with any proprietary token. It's a common misconception that you need XCP token to buy and trade. I don't think the UI factors much into this argument at all, especially considering most complain about it.

I admit I haven't investigated Counterparty, mostly because I was put off by "another alt-coin."  I don't see why services need to keep creating new coins, we already have bitcoin.  

Counterparty is an abstraction layer ontop of Bitcoin blockchain to enabled advanced crypto-financial markets which aren't supported by default in it's current incarnation. It's not a competitor 'altcoin' -- this is another common misconception. - It enriches the bitcoin ecosystem as it matures.

But then why does XCP trade like a currency on alt-coin exchanges and why is its market cap reported at coinmarketcap.com?  I would be interested in something like Counterparty if I could use all of its features by paying in bitcoin.  I would be interested in purchasing crypto-equity in something like Counterparty if it paid dividends in bitcoin.  

If you'd tried to do anything worthwile with what is, at the current time the most mature colored coin implementation (coinprism) and then tried CounterParty to achieve the same ends it should be crystal clear why one is the superior option.

I agree that support for colored coins is still immature, but I'm more interested in what will be possible.  What can Counterparty do that couldn't be done for free using current or future bitcoin infrastructure?

Creation & management of smart property and the subsequent exchange of them are only a subset of the features of counterparty. Here's an example of the betting functionality being put to good use: XBet– the world's first distributed betting application You could not do such a thing with colored coins.

That looks interesting, but I'm still put off by XCP.  Why can't the contracts be paid in bitcoin with Counterparty acting like a service provider (if that's what it is)?

I'm not sure how Colored coins & Coinjoin would auto-make trustless & p2p trades between two parties like you said, just seems like you'd have slightly more private purchase of a colored coin that you'd have to arrange via separate channel.

Colored coins are "encoded" in OP_RETURN outputs.  If Bob wants to purchase Alice's colored coins, he can create an unsigned bitcoinTX that spends Alice's colored coins to his address and his bitcoins to Alice's address.  If both Alice and Bob sign the transaction, it will get mined.  If either one of them doesn't, it won't.  If either one of them "double spends" the transaction is void (so no one loses).  

Here's something else that's useful with colored coins:  a service like Counterparty could sell XCP colored coins (which are really shares).  These shares could trade in a trustless decentralized manner using the open-assets protocol.  If the service earns a lot of bitcoin (because people are using it), then it could issue dividends directly to each bitcoin address where the XCP-shares are located.  

With CounterParty token/token trades are escrowed by the protocol, the exchange engine, order matches, btcpay etc are baked right in (amongst a whole host of other features). Anyone is free to setup a node.

with Vennd (which is an app built upon counterparty) you can interact with a vending machine which would enable crowdfunding in a basic mode (bidirectional in enhanced mode), EG BTC in and COMPANYSHARES out. or 2 way bridged gateway between any alt (litecoin or monero for instance) and assets distributed on DeX. It's already possible to buy and sell silver/gold purely in a decentralised fashion using counterparty, in future it will be feasible for someone to distribute native assets backed by real value on an as/needed basis.

A huge driving force of the value of BTC will be the utility of it's blockchain, after all that's the truly fascinating part of the whole invention;  I think it pays to keep an eye on exciting technology like this.

I don't see why this can't be done in directly with bitcoins.  For example, I can already create colored coins that represent grams of gold using Coinprism (I'd probably want to add a few more details to the "issuing" procedure…).  These gold-grams could trade p2p via color-aware bitcoin wallets.  

I suppose I'm mostly put off by XCP.  I feel the same way about XRP, Maidsafecoin, NXT, Ether, etc.  It seems to me that these services want their "shares" to trade more like "money" because then P/E ratios won't apply when evaluating their market caps!  

In my opinion, we need only one crypto-currency.  Services built on top should accept bitcoin; they can still raise money by issuing shares, but shareholders should be paid dividends in bitcoin and not by "more shares in lieu of bitcoins."  

I do think you should study the counterparty protocol a little bit to gain a little deeper understanding. You can indeed issue smart property directly with BTC and you can certainly issue dividends to shareholders of a created asset directly with BTC. in the case of a mining bond for example, it's the only thing that makes sense.  In fact for most use cases I can't imagine anyone wanting to pay out in XCP. XCP guarantees atomicity and can be natively escrowed by the protocol,

So the proprietary token ideal in a betting system (ie CFD's) This area is ripe for innovation (BUT with vennd you can convert say BTC or MRO to CBTC or CMR in vending mode as a native counterparty asset - with this technique coinbase could issue fiat backed tokens in real time- we can get rid of the requirement of storing BTC on wallets that you don't own privkey on in order to trade- that was never what satoshi intended. Hundreds of millions of dollars have already been siphoned by such mistakes, 2014 should be the time to start changing this)  

Last I checked of colored coins (coinprism private beta and public launch and a chinese implementation which isn't public) it wasn't possible to create callable assets- . Counterparty can embed tx in OP_Return outputs but there was a bit of drama with bitcoin core-devs, so they have backup mechanisms in place. I'm not sure if open-assets would be affected by the core-devs pruning or eliminating OP_RETURN as they threatened to, or whether they have a backup mechanism. The network is not designed to be an alternative to bitcoin, it's supposed to enrich bitcoin by providing an 'API' for advanced financial operations ontop of the blockchain.

Counterparty offers other interesting possibilities with feeds/broadcasts. For instance one could use it as a warrant canary or deadmans switch.

[Anotheranonlol]

I am really really shocked and impressed with that wallet. Not super intuitive but a live decentralized exchange right now, just wow.

IAS

We had live decentralised exchanges quite some months ago prior to NXT's, where have you been?

[klee]

I installed the NXT Wallet. Wow! This is interesting. A decentralized asset exchange wallet and more. Gonna be fun to check this out.
Where is there more information on Qora, etc? I'm wet behind the ears here.

Thx in advance,
IAS

Qora asset id is 2950240446121913764

You go to Asset exchange, Add Asset button at the top right corner.

The Qora asset is operated manually by Dzarmush, look him up on Qora thread.

I wonder if the asset exchange has better overall prices than an online exchange. Anyone do any price comparisons?

I am really really shocked and impressed with that wallet. Not super intuitive but a live decentralized exchange right now, just wow.

IAS

https://nxtblocks.info

Soon a wallet there too (a la blockchain.info with encryption client side)..

[devphp]

I wonder if the asset exchange has better overall prices than an online exchange.

For Qora? Probably not, as there is not enough liquidity/buyers/sellers yet and the Qora asset was added 3 days ago and Qora wallet has/had some syncing issues I heard. Overall, it's just a new market place for Qora, just like for NEM or any other coin that would set up its gateway there. I wouldn't expect prices to be any better. But when Poloniex went down for 1.5 hours yesterday due to DDoS, NXT AE was the only place Qora could be traded on (but it's not like there was a lot of Qora trading going on at that time haha), so the NXT AE is kind of backup exchange right now, because it can't go down, well, someone could try to take down, but it's not a website they can DDoS

[jubalix]

its hard to take this thread seriously with no mention of PeerCoin

then againg the concept is waaaaay out infront, and the really loooooong game.

I've rarely looked into peercoin other than maybe its market cap .. nobody really talks about it. After you mentioned it, I decided to check it out. I go to the main website .. $0 marketcap, 0 ppc total supply, whitepaper link 404's, myth 3 isn't even in english, github is almost barren I'll keep digging on it ... but do you have good sources of information that are still around for it so I don't fumble around aimlessly?

where did you go?

the site is here

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?board=3.0

[dreamspark]

where did you go?

the site is here

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?board=3.0

To the main site like he said

http://www.peercoin.net/

[Its About Sharing]

I am really really shocked and impressed with that wallet. Not super intuitive but a live decentralized exchange right now, just wow.

IAS

We had live decentralised exchanges quite some months ago prior to NXT's, where have you been?

LOL - Listening to podcasts, researching btc and making music.

It is hard to imagine what this space will look like in a few months to years.
I mean what if the tax agencies start wanting/allowing alt to btc transactions to be tracked? The decentralized exchanges put a damper on that. 

[Peter R]

I do think you should study the counterparty protocol a little bit to gain a little deeper understanding...

Thanks for the response, Anotheranonlol.  Counterparty sounds more useful for (and less competitive with) bitcoin than I originally thought.  I'll try to look into it when I have some more time.

I still don't see why a Counterparty-like service can't be built to directly escrow BTC, and completely eliminate its internal currency.  Gavin's Oracle idea would allow for this (but obviously that is just an idea at this point where Counterparty and colored-coins are working now).  

[Cryddit]

If you're going to build colored coins, IMO you have to build it in far deeper than just the wallet.  

Colored coins are supposed to simulate multivalent amounts, but if you want multivalent amounts and you want them to be solid, you have to represent them as such in each transaction and txout.  

That was originally my biggest concern too: with bitcoin, I can look at a particular output in a block and see how many satoshis it contains.  But with colored coins, I need to scan all the way back to the original issuance to determine the value.   Anyone could create a colored coin transaction that turned 10 vouchers into 100 vouchers and the transaction would still get mined because the color data is just random bytes from the perspective of bitcoin.  

But now I don't see this as a problem: from the colored-coin abstraction level, the transaction didn't turn 10 vouchers into 100, it annihilated all of them.  They can no longer be passed off as real because according to the color-coin protocol they no longer exist.  

One problem is that the value being transferred is not evident in the blockchain; If colored coins are used a lot, we'll have no idea when the chain is becoming vulnerable to attack because the value being transferred has grown higher than the cost of an attack. 

But the main problem, IMO, is that what you just described is an invalid transaction, but it can get mined and committed in the blockchain anyway, and there is no way to undo it or recover those tokens.  Any client or miner unaware of the colored-coin issue will see nothing wrong with it.  And that means your colored-coin issues are not getting the full benefit of the trustless distributed transaction checking; instead they're getting some kind of after-the-fact transaction checking that doesn't notice the invalid transactions until they're already committed. 

And there will be people motivated to get others to do such destructive transactions; we're going to see phishing scams directed at getting people to do stupid shit that will destroy their colored coins, for no reason other than because that will increase the percentage of a colored-coin issue held by the scammer.  Technically this motive also exists with Bitcoin, but you can't easily accidentally use a regular bitcoin client to do transactions that will destroy coins, and more importantly Bitcoin is a single issue; widespread losses would increase the percentage of all bitcoins held by the scammer, but would decrease their value  due to a loss of confidence in the system.

A colored-coin issue, OTOH, is tiny when measured in bitcoin; the destruction of stocks represented by a quarter of a single bitcoin can cause the transfer of a million-dollar company without affecting the wider economy which the winning scammer has available to spend their ill-gotten gains. 

[jubalix]

where did you go?

the site is here

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?board=3.0

To the main site like he said

http://www.peercoin.net/

that works....what do you see there?

[dreamspark]

where did you go?

the site is here

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?board=3.0

To the main site like he said

http://www.peercoin.net/

that works....what do you see there?

$0 market cap and 0 total PPC supply, like he said 

[harveyweizhao]

where did you go?

the site is here

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?board=3.0

To the main site like he said

http://www.peercoin.net/

that works....what do you see there?

$0 market cap and 0 total PPC supply, like he said 

What I get from the www.peercoin.net now:

$1.72 USD/PPC
PRICE
 
$36,948,769.96
MARKET CAP
 
21,481,843 PPC
TOTAL SUPPLY

[Its About Sharing]

Anyone watching Monero (XML) lately? Wow, it has been up to almost .005 BTC. There are rumors of Mintpal implimentation, might be a part of it.
Thanks to those who mentioned it, started picking some up at .0026, bit more at .0038-.0041. I feel ok in this range.

4 day chart.

[pandher]

Anyone watching Monero (XML) lately? Wow, it has been up to almost .005 BTC. There are rumors of Mintpal implimentation, might be a part of it.
Thanks to those who mentioned it, started picking some up at .0026, bit more at .0038-.0041. I feel ok in this range.

Mintpal anticipation

[bananahunter67]

AUR was one of the biggest scams ever 

[pandacoin]

Rpietila, what do you think about short term value of XMR? Can we expect a dump after coin is added to Mintpal?