Its shocking and depressing to read BOTS made bitcoin boom!

[jonald_fyookball]

How does it even matter if bots had anything to do with the price? As long as there are people who are willing to purchase at a given price,then that price is the one that matters.

I think it upsets people because of the community aspect. When one person buys, others view that as being an accurate description of its value. When the bots buy 10k BTC at fake rates, others feel that it must be how the market is doing when it's really not. This causes the prices to go up (or down) according to fake data.

The whole story about bots is pretty much irrelevant because there were probably layers of shenanigans going on at Gox.
Gox prices were out of line with the rest of the market and couldnt be arbitraged back because
of the withdrawal issues.

If manipulation were to start occuring a major brokerage or exchange right now
(bots or no bots), they would lose money to arbitragers.

I do agree that the bots are less relevant than the other things that were happening towards the end, but the bots were an issue long before Gox started having their withdrawal problems and everything else. If you follow the story, this was all months prior to that (and may have contributed to the issues Gox ended up facing, though it's hard to tell).

it really doesn't matter.  if the purchases are real , then bots are just
an extension of traders activity.  Theres tons of algorithmic trading
in the forex world (the majority in fact).  Is anyone saying "oh nooo bots"...?
of course not.

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[ranlo]

How does it even matter if bots had anything to do with the price? As long as there are people who are willing to purchase at a given price,then that price is the one that matters.

I think it upsets people because of the community aspect. When one person buys, others view that as being an accurate description of its value. When the bots buy 10k BTC at fake rates, others feel that it must be how the market is doing when it's really not. This causes the prices to go up (or down) according to fake data.

The whole story about bots is pretty much irrelevant because there were probably layers of shenanigans going on at Gox.
Gox prices were out of line with the rest of the market and couldnt be arbitraged back because
of the withdrawal issues.

If manipulation were to start occuring a major brokerage or exchange right now
(bots or no bots), they would lose money to arbitragers.

I do agree that the bots are less relevant than the other things that were happening towards the end, but the bots were an issue long before Gox started having their withdrawal problems and everything else. If you follow the story, this was all months prior to that (and may have contributed to the issues Gox ended up facing, though it's hard to tell).

it really doesn't matter.  if the purchases are real , then bots are just
an extension of traders activity.  Theres tons of algorithmic trading
in the forex world (the majority in fact).  Is anyone saying "oh nooo bots"...?
of course not.

The bots in the forex world are doing REAL trades. They aren't magically making money pop out of nowhere. They aren't buying gold at $10 million an ounce on the record, while never actually making that purchase. There are huge differences here.

[jonald_fyookball]

How does it even matter if bots had anything to do with the price? As long as there are people who are willing to purchase at a given price,then that price is the one that matters.

I think it upsets people because of the community aspect. When one person buys, others view that as being an accurate description of its value. When the bots buy 10k BTC at fake rates, others feel that it must be how the market is doing when it's really not. This causes the prices to go up (or down) according to fake data.

The whole story about bots is pretty much irrelevant because there were probably layers of shenanigans going on at Gox.
Gox prices were out of line with the rest of the market and couldnt be arbitraged back because
of the withdrawal issues.

If manipulation were to start occuring a major brokerage or exchange right now
(bots or no bots), they would lose money to arbitragers.

I do agree that the bots are less relevant than the other things that were happening towards the end, but the bots were an issue long before Gox started having their withdrawal problems and everything else. If you follow the story, this was all months prior to that (and may have contributed to the issues Gox ended up facing, though it's hard to tell).

it really doesn't matter.  if the purchases are real , then bots are just
an extension of traders activity.  Theres tons of algorithmic trading
in the forex world (the majority in fact).  Is anyone saying "oh nooo bots"...?
of course not.

The bots in the forex world are doing REAL trades. They aren't magically making money pop out of nowhere. They aren't buying gold at $10 million an ounce on the record, while never actually making that purchase. There are huge differences here.

That's my point.  It's not the bots.  Its the fake activity that was going on at gox.
Gox was the biggest exchange and many foolishly kept their coins there,
and even more foolishly kept their coins there when red flags abound.

I doubt that could happen today in Bitcoin, at least not to nearly
the extent because there are many choices in exchanges and
there is better flow of information (forum), many news sites,
more common knowledge about security, etc.

[ranlo]

That's my point.  It's not the bots.  Its the fake activity that was going on at gox.
Gox was the biggest exchange and many foolishly kept their coins there,
and even more foolishly kept their coins there when red flags abound.

I doubt that could happen today in Bitcoin, at least not to nearly
the extent because there are many choices in exchanges and
there is better flow of information (forum), many news sites,
more common knowledge about security, etc.

Well, my understanding (and I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I won't say I agree or disagree) is that the bots were supposedly run by Mt. Gox to create the fake trades. They weren't normal ones, but were made to do the fake activity you were talking about. This is why people are so upset about them.

[jonald_fyookball]

That's my point.  It's not the bots.  Its the fake activity that was going on at gox.
Gox was the biggest exchange and many foolishly kept their coins there,
and even more foolishly kept their coins there when red flags abound.

I doubt that could happen today in Bitcoin, at least not to nearly
the extent because there are many choices in exchanges and
there is better flow of information (forum), many news sites,
more common knowledge about security, etc.

Well, my understanding (and I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I won't say I agree or disagree) is that the bots were supposedly run by Mt. Gox to create the fake trades. They weren't normal ones, but were made to do the fake activity you were talking about. This is why people are so upset about them.

sure.  my point is , there's nothing to worry about. 

All we have to watch out for today, is any exchange
where withdrawals are delayed (especially for long periods).
Obviously, such an exchange can become insolvent,
as gox did in fact, but also they can be manipulating
prices because there is no arbitrage opportunity.

[cuddaloreappu]

comparing the entire event to a fictional story for easy understanding...


Dogecoins are available cheap around 70 satoshi, but if there is an exchange like cryptsy programmed with bots to buy dogecoins daily at an increasing price but with no underlying bitcoins paid to exchange..This would drive the price of dogecoins very high..As long as the people cashing out are less than people buying in, this would not put the exchange in problem to withdraw funds, but this is exactly what will happen in a buyers market which is happening.

Even arbitrage and free market wont drive price lower because there is constant ballooning of price at one exchange which is fundamentally a fake activity..

This could even continue until the price of each dogecoin is one million, people around the world believe that each doge is worth a milion and buy and sell for that price, but when this fake activity is exposed then the price will collapse because fundementally the supply demand of dogecoin does not fix the price at one million a coin..this will cause a panic sale at first and then slowly declining price until it is finally back to 70 satoshi or slightly above than that because free market utlimately corrects all manipulations...

Applying this to bitcoin, the price of bitcoin then should be around the price before this fake bot activity started, which is around 100-200$..

but all these is only when these reports are proved to be true..

[cuddaloreappu]

Some suggest previous bitcoin booms were also because of this fake activity,in which case it is shocking to estimate what is the true value if bitcoin without all these manipulations.

[atc1]

Some suggest previous bitcoin booms were also because of this fake activity,in which case it is shocking to estimate what is the true value if bitcoin without all these manipulations.

There have been numerous articles/discussions regarding the "true" or intrinsic value of bitcoin. The intrinsic value of a few virtual numbers is zero. No-one was buying bitcoins in 2009,were they? The value of bitcoin is what people are willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter how that price is reached,bots or not.

[dreamspark]

Some suggest previous bitcoin booms were also because of this fake activity,in which case it is shocking to estimate what is the true value if bitcoin without all these manipulations.

The true value of Bitcoin is whatever price it is. 'willy', if its true, has been off since Feb so how do you suppose that the price people are paying now is fake ?

[newuser01]

What's really shocking is the amount of morons that will believe anything written on the internet if it's referred to as "NEWS"

[jonald_fyookball]

Even arbitrage and free market wont drive price lower because there is constant ballooning of price at one exchange which is fundamentally a fake activity..
 

Nonsense.
Arbitrage by definition involves more than 1 exchange/place to buy and sell.

[dreamspark]

Even arbitrage and free market wont drive price lower because there is constant ballooning of price at one exchange which is fundamentally a fake activity..
 

Nonsense.
Arbitrage by definition involves more than 1 exchange/place to buy and sell.

Precisely, if there wasn't enough fiat or people willing to pay whatever price then arb just wouldn't be possible at any real volume.

[whtchocla7e]

It's neither shocking or depressing.

The faster we inflate the value, the sooner I can retire. There's no shame in this game.

[cuddaloreappu]

Bots are used in almost all exchanges to boost the stock prices rather than penalizing them

The whole point of this thread is not about bots being used but the way they are programme to buy with fake or no money

[ranlo]

Bots are used in almost all exchanges to boost the stock prices rather than penalizing them

The whole point of this thread is not about bots being used but the way they are programme to buy with fake or no money

This. Apparently people don't read anything anymore; they see titles and make statements based on that.

The issue isn't bots; it's with fake trades created from an *internal* bot (whether Mt. Gox ran it or some third party isn't relevant for this discussion).

[TopherB]

comparing the entire event to a fictional story for easy understanding...


Dogecoins are available cheap around 70 satoshi, but if there is an exchange like cryptsy programmed with bots to buy dogecoins daily at an increasing price but with no underlying bitcoins paid to exchange..This would drive the price of dogecoins very high..As long as the people cashing out are less than people buying in, this would not put the exchange in problem to withdraw funds, but this is exactly what will happen in a buyers market which is happening.

Even arbitrage and free market wont drive price lower because there is constant ballooning of price at one exchange which is fundamentally a fake activity..

This could even continue until the price of each dogecoin is one million, people around the world believe that each doge is worth a milion and buy and sell for that price, but when this fake activity is exposed then the price will collapse because fundementally the supply demand of dogecoin does not fix the price at one million a coin..this will cause a panic sale at first and then slowly declining price until it is finally back to 70 satoshi or slightly above than that because free market utlimately corrects all manipulations...

Applying this to bitcoin, the price of bitcoin then should be around the price before this fake bot activity started, which is around 100-200$..

but all these is only when these reports are proved to be true..

One thing you are failing to factor into your equation is that Gox, China, IRS, Bots etc all added exposure for an idea that was not that well known. It spread news of bitcoin more into the mainstream consciousness. And while all of these news events were bad this was counter balanced by the fervor of the bitcoin community responding with its knowledge.
Add so in the past year more places are accepting bitcoin, there are more forums, there are more books, there are more start up companies and venture capitalists, ATMs, exchanges, apps, software maturity, etc. The infrastructure technological, societal and even Governmental has developed as a result of the exposure. And all of that adds value to bitcoin. It'll never see $100 again.   

[cuddaloreappu]

comparing the entire event to a fictional story for easy understanding...


Dogecoins are available cheap around 70 satoshi, but if there is an exchange like cryptsy programmed with bots to buy dogecoins daily at an increasing price but with no underlying bitcoins paid to exchange..This would drive the price of dogecoins very high..As long as the people cashing out are less than people buying in, this would not put the exchange in problem to withdraw funds, but this is exactly what will happen in a buyers market which is happening.

Even arbitrage and free market wont drive price lower because there is constant ballooning of price at one exchange which is fundamentally a fake activity..

This could even continue until the price of each dogecoin is one million, people around the world believe that each doge is worth a milion and buy and sell for that price, but when this fake activity is exposed then the price will collapse because fundementally the supply demand of dogecoin does not fix the price at one million a coin..this will cause a panic sale at first and then slowly declining price until it is finally back to 70 satoshi or slightly above than that because free market utlimately corrects all manipulations...

Applying this to bitcoin, the price of bitcoin then should be around the price before this fake bot activity started, which is around 100-200$..

but all these is only when these reports are proved to be true..

One thing you are failing to factor into your equation is that Gox, China, IRS, Bots etc all added exposure for an idea that was not that well known. It spread news of bitcoin more into the mainstream consciousness. And while all of these news events were bad this was counter balanced by the fervor of the bitcoin community responding with its knowledge.
Add so in the past year more places are accepting bitcoin, there are more forums, there are more books, there are more start up companies and venture capitalists, ATMs, exchanges, apps, software maturity, etc. The infrastructure technological, societal and even Governmental has developed as a result of the exposure. And all of that adds value to bitcoin. It'll never see $100 again.   

This explanation really makes sense...
+1

[nkocevar]

STOP spreading FUD. Who cares what caused the price increase 6 months ago. Do you really want to sabotage the market or what? Do you want your coins to be worth less?

ignoring very important things and brushing them under carpet is as bad as spreading FUD

Whether information can damage the market price or not, it may still be worth knowing. this is why this is true.

[dreamspark]

STOP spreading FUD. Who cares what caused the price increase 6 months ago. Do you really want to sabotage the market or what? Do you want your coins to be worth less?

ignoring very important things and brushing them under carpet is as bad as spreading FUD

Is it important though ? The market doesn't seem to think so.

[ranlo]

STOP spreading FUD. Who cares what caused the price increase 6 months ago. Do you really want to sabotage the market or what? Do you want your coins to be worth less?

ignoring very important things and brushing them under carpet is as bad as spreading FUD

Is it important though ? The market doesn't seem to think so.

It doesn't but that's possibly also related to natural increase in the price due to adoption and investments. It's hard to tell what the actual effect of the bot situation was, but history that is ignored is bound to repeat itself.