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Author Topic: Losing the High Moral Ground  (Read 2575 times)
cbeast
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May 28, 2014, 03:29:47 PM
 #1

Many of us jumped into Bitcoin for ideological reasons that aligned with the Genesis Block message regarding central banks and quantitative easing. Some of us also blame this unrestricted printing as part of a shadow government that plans wars using central banks to fund them. They go to war, blackout the media, then tell us to forget about it and go shopping. Some of us abhor unnecessary violence and want to stop using the product created by these banking cartels. If only we could go back to the days when money was backed by precious metals.  For many, Bitcoin could help create a beautiful society.

But there was a snake in the garden. Silk Road created a black market that allowed criminals to become parasites to the Bitcoin development community. The bad press and negative impact of this crime wave hindered Bitcoin adoption. It wan't until Silk Road was closed down that Bitcoin adoption began to take hold and investment grew.

It is a mark of human nature that new technologies are always weaponized before they are developed for beneficial tools. Metal was forged into swords before plows. Volatile substances were used to make bombs for centuries before generating steam power. Technology scares people. Now we have stealth address technology that will make creating black markets easy. They think that using normal distribution channels is unfair because there are restrictions and costs they feel should not apply to them. They think they are solving a social problem by treating a symptom instead of the organism. They could accomplish the same thing by re-inventing the distribution system rather than weaponizing it. But they are driven by fear. It will take grown-ups to create real tools that provide transparency instead of making it easier for nefarious groups to flourish. They say that if you live long enough you become your own enemy. We are seeing this happening. Let's hope the black hat secret squirrel group doesn't destroy the infant Bitcoin project before it leaves the cradle.


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May 28, 2014, 03:37:56 PM
 #2

I hear you bro. Crime and get-rich-quick speculation have certainly changed the mentality here. You used to get some cred for starting a new project. Now you get trolled; and success is only measured in how many BTCs you can convert to fiat. The extreme greed shown here is proof that bitcoin has become money.   

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May 28, 2014, 05:46:56 PM
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It is a market. There will be good and bad actors in any market. The bad actors get all the attention.

cbeast
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May 28, 2014, 06:11:10 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Name_is_Nobody

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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May 28, 2014, 07:33:46 PM
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But there was a snake in the garden. Silk Road created a black market that allowed criminals to become parasites to the Bitcoin development community.

I take your point - but in my opinion there wouldn't be a need for the Silk Roads of this world if national government (and the people also) had a more practical attitude towards drugs.
   The Silk Road enabled the safe sale of drugs on the basis of established trust. As daft as it might sound, maybe government has a lesson to learn here.

    But Silk Road aside, I do agree with the gist of your post. There seems to be a good portion here that view BTC merely as a means of abdicating their responsibility towards the community of which they are members. For others its just a get rich quick scheme.

   BTC will be of benefit to many different factions of society - and in different ways. But for me, it offers the greatest potential benefit to those that are currently financially disenfranchised  Wink
     
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May 28, 2014, 08:21:19 PM
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I honestly feel that the rise of silk road was a sign of bitcoins success.  If people/addicts were willing to trade btc for their high of choice, it is a sign that bitcoin works as a currency.  Even if the seller then converted to USD, bitcoin filled one of its primary purposes.  It was used as a cheap, decentralized means of exchange out of the control of a government or financial entity.  Hopefully in the future, we can reach a point where there is some stability in the price of bitcoin vs major fiat currencies, and people will feel more comfortable storing value as bitcoins just like they do with any other store of value (precious metals, currencies, equities).
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May 28, 2014, 09:30:07 PM
 #7

To people defending Silk Road:

Do you really put things in your body that you have no idea where they came from? Aren't you worried about hot shots? I know they have a rating system, but is it worth trusting with your life? They are after all, DRUG DEALERS. They are not doctors or even trained chemists. If you're going to buy potent substances like that, don't you think you ought to at least know where and how they live? Bitcoin is creating some crazy notions about how society should be and Silk Road is one of the most insane. Is that all we have here anymore is scammers, drug dealers, and one real actual chick?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
practicaldreamer
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May 28, 2014, 09:52:48 PM
 #8

To people defending Silk Road:

Do you really put things in your body that you have no idea where they came from? Aren't you worried about hot shots? I know they have a rating system, but is it worth trusting with your life?

I don't put drugs in my body - but if I did, and lets say I was a drug addict (and so compelled to use, so to speak) I think I'd rather trust someone selling drugs with a proven track record and who had established a relationship of trust with individuals in the same predicament as myself.

What has any of this to do with bitcoin ? Bitcoin is "good" because its not used in transactions where the purchased product is contraband ? Bitcoins "high moral ground" was never based on this, for me at least.

Using fiat to acquire illegal drugs in the traditional fashion  [ie. cash to a Machiavellian gangsters flunkey], certainly is able to claim no moral victory whatsoever.

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May 28, 2014, 10:08:46 PM
 #9

With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

The moral high ground includes tolerance of other people's freedoms.

You know something has created more freedom when the "bad" part of it is the fact that some people are now free to do "X" that you do not agree with.

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cbeast
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May 28, 2014, 10:35:44 PM
 #10

To people defending Silk Road:

Do you really put things in your body that you have no idea where they came from? Aren't you worried about hot shots? I know they have a rating system, but is it worth trusting with your life?

I don't put drugs in my body - but if I did, and lets say I was a drug addict (and so compelled to use, so to speak) I think I'd rather trust someone selling drugs with a proven track record and who had established a relationship of trust with individuals in the same predicament as myself.

What has any of this to do with bitcoin ? Bitcoin is "good" because its not used in transactions where the purchased product is contraband ? Bitcoins "high moral ground" was never based on this, for me at least.

Using fiat to acquire illegal drugs in the traditional fashion  [ie. cash to a Machiavellian gangsters flunkey], certainly is able to claim no moral victory whatsoever.


In other words, "I don't know so I'll go along with a tiny new fad that failed."

With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

The moral high ground includes tolerance of other people's freedoms.

You know something has created more freedom when the "bad" part of it is the fact that some people are now free to do "X" that you do not agree with.
That's right, and to protect society, those abusing freedoms will have their freedoms mitigated. Those are called statutes and referred to as "laws".

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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May 29, 2014, 02:29:35 AM
 #11

Silk Road II is now bigger than Silk Road I was (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140501/18550127094/silk-road-20-now-larger-than-silk-road-ever-was.shtml), so in this aspect nothing changed.

My main posts and a few more are reposted here: https://oneskeptic.tumblr.com
wachtwoord
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May 29, 2014, 02:38:14 AM
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With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.

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May 29, 2014, 02:53:22 AM
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I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others. But the burden of proof is on the one that wants to limit the freedom of others to harm themselves.

Besides, if we conclude that repression is inefficient and that empowers criminal gangs, I have no doubt about the course of action.

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May 29, 2014, 03:01:14 AM
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I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others. But the burden of proof is on the one that wants to limit the freedom of others to harm themselves.

Besides, if we conclude that repression is inefficient and that empowers criminal gangs, I have no doubt about the course of action.

+1
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May 29, 2014, 03:02:52 AM
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With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

I couldn't agree more. Freedom cannot be contained, the old adage "your freedom stops where someone else's begins" is completely wrong, since if freedom stops, it's not freedom in the first place. It should actually read "your freedom begins where someone else's begins".

I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others.

There is no freedom in harming others, so there's no limitation of freedom there. This distortion has been brought forward mostly by right-wing philosophers who had no idea what freedom is, For them it was the fear of losing their privileges mostly Wink
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May 29, 2014, 03:05:29 AM
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I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others. But the burden of proof is on the one that wants to limit the freedom of others to harm themselves.


I cannot. Not now, not ever.

cbeast
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May 29, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
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With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
wachtwoord
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May 29, 2014, 03:23:31 AM
 #18

With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem

cbeast
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May 29, 2014, 03:24:29 AM
 #19

With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
wachtwoord
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May 29, 2014, 03:25:32 AM
 #20

With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.

No, but claiming his opinion is invalid because he's a hypocrite, is.

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