jonnybravo0311
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June 11, 2014, 03:24:06 PM |
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Yes, but I find it very hard to belive that you don't know that this difficulty is increasing every 11 days (between 12% - 20%). Your calculations are misleading because you know very well what I'm talking about. It's not good for the image of your company to state false numbers, the difficulty it's not static. Present all the risks with buying cloud mining contracts so the costumers can make their calculations . Don't mislead costumers with false calculations, we had enought companies like this! It's not just the difficulty that changes. The price of BTC also changes. Sorry, $2.6 per GH/s is just not competitively priced at all. No ROI for customer at all locked in for a year, only profit for provider and that's it.
Gotta be much lower than $2 per GH to even be considered.
It's all variables and it's all risk. Whether or not you choose to accept it is the question. You can't just make a blanket statement of "if it's not under $2 per GH, it'll never ROI." If the price of BTC shoots up to $1000 tomorrow, that $2 per GH will ROI just fine.
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Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow! Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets! No SPV cheats. No empty blocks.
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Syke
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June 11, 2014, 03:26:44 PM |
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It's all variables and it's all risk. Whether or not you choose to accept it is the question. You can't just make a blanket statement of "if it's not under $2 per GH, it'll never ROI." If the price of BTC shoots up to $1000 tomorrow, that $2 per GH will ROI just fine.
If you need BTC to skyrocket to ROI, then you're far better off just buying the BTC.
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Buy & Hold
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ChuckBuck
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June 11, 2014, 03:29:15 PM |
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Yes, but I find it very hard to belive that you don't know that this difficulty is increasing every 11 days (between 12% - 20%). Your calculations are misleading because you know very well what I'm talking about. It's not good for the image of your company to state false numbers, the difficulty it's not static. Present all the risks with buying cloud mining contracts so the costumers can make their calculations . Don't mislead costumers with false calculations, we had enought companies like this! It's not just the difficulty that changes. The price of BTC also changes. Sorry, $2.6 per GH/s is just not competitively priced at all. No ROI for customer at all locked in for a year, only profit for provider and that's it.
Gotta be much lower than $2 per GH to even be considered.
It's all variables and it's all risk. Whether or not you choose to accept it is the question. You can't just make a blanket statement of "if it's not under $2 per GH, it'll never ROI." If the price of BTC shoots up to $1000 tomorrow, that $2 per GH will ROI just fine. Not if you pay in BTC, it won't. If you pay 4 BTC, you'll never mine back 4 BTC under any conditions, whatsoever. So my blanket statement does apply.
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jonsi
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June 11, 2014, 03:33:31 PM |
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Yes, but I find it very hard to belive that you don't know that this difficulty is increasing every 11 days (between 12% - 20%). Your calculations are misleading because you know very well what I'm talking about. It's not good for the image of your company to state false numbers, the difficulty it's not static. Present all the risks with buying cloud mining contracts so the costumers can make their calculations . Don't mislead costumers with false calculations, we had enought companies like this! Best hope for us is Bitcoin Price will increase so we can make ROI in fiat that we use to purchase cloud mining contract If not, we will make a long way to ROI ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) Mining have nothing to do with the btc/usd price ratio. You should always report mining only to btc.
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jonsi
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June 11, 2014, 03:36:18 PM |
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Difficulty will rise, prices will be lowered.
But this doesn't have nothing to do with the ones that allready paid for a contract. You just can't say that you will ROI in three months based on the curent difficulty, you are misleading people with this kind of calculations.
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Mayuyu48
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June 11, 2014, 04:03:31 PM |
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Mining have nothing to do with the btc/usd price ratio. You should always report mining only to btc.
I understand what do you mean so we must stick in BTC for mining report, not USD if we do like that, hard to make ROI in 3 months, maybe 4-5 months still possible
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ChuckBuck
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June 11, 2014, 04:06:49 PM |
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Mining have nothing to do with the btc/usd price ratio. You should always report mining only to btc.
I understand what do you mean so we must stick in BTC for mining report, not USDif we do like that, hard to make ROI in 3 months, maybe 4-5 months still possible That is exactly it. You always calculate in BTC (invest) to BTC (mining profit). If you're mining (hardware or cloud) hoping USD rise, but with a risk of not making as much BTC as you put in, you're losing money plain and simple. If you invest in USD, but are also hoping for a BTC price increase, you're better off just buying the Bitcoin outright and sitting on it.
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jonnybravo0311
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June 11, 2014, 04:21:16 PM |
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Yes, but I find it very hard to belive that you don't know that this difficulty is increasing every 11 days (between 12% - 20%). Your calculations are misleading because you know very well what I'm talking about. It's not good for the image of your company to state false numbers, the difficulty it's not static. Present all the risks with buying cloud mining contracts so the costumers can make their calculations . Don't mislead costumers with false calculations, we had enought companies like this! It's not just the difficulty that changes. The price of BTC also changes. Sorry, $2.6 per GH/s is just not competitively priced at all. No ROI for customer at all locked in for a year, only profit for provider and that's it.
Gotta be much lower than $2 per GH to even be considered.
It's all variables and it's all risk. Whether or not you choose to accept it is the question. You can't just make a blanket statement of "if it's not under $2 per GH, it'll never ROI." If the price of BTC shoots up to $1000 tomorrow, that $2 per GH will ROI just fine. Not if you pay in BTC, it won't. If you pay 4 BTC, you'll never mine back 4 BTC under any conditions, whatsoever. So my blanket statement does apply. No, your statement was using USD "...lower than $2 per GH to even be considered". If you pay a current price of $2.60, which is the asking price of the contract, that's your starting point. if BTC crashes to $100 and stays there, you'll never recover your initial investment. If BTC goes to $1000, you're going to make your investment back and then some. Your next statement, "...you'll never mine back 4 BTC under any conditions..." is incorrect. If difficulty were to remain a constant, at current difficulty you'll mine 15.622 BTC in a year. Projecting a 10% difficulty increase will net you ~6 BTC.
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Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow! Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets! No SPV cheats. No empty blocks.
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jonnybravo0311
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June 11, 2014, 04:26:05 PM |
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Mining have nothing to do with the btc/usd price ratio. You should always report mining only to btc.
I understand what do you mean so we must stick in BTC for mining report, not USDif we do like that, hard to make ROI in 3 months, maybe 4-5 months still possible That is exactly it. You always calculate in BTC (invest) to BTC (mining profit). If you're mining (hardware or cloud) hoping USD rise, but with a risk of not making as much BTC as you put in, you're losing money plain and simple. If you invest in USD, but are also hoping for a BTC price increase, you're better off just buying the Bitcoin outright and sitting on it. You're always taking a risk, which is what my initial statement was. Regardless of if you invest USD, EUR, YEN or BTC, you hope that the output will be greater than your input. If you invest 4 BTC now, you're hoping that difficulty doesn't rise so dramatically as to make it impossible to recover that 4 BTC. If you invest $2599 now, you're hoping that the amount of BTC you earn from mining ends up greater than the $2599 you put in.
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Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow! Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets! No SPV cheats. No empty blocks.
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ChuckBuck
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 11, 2014, 04:47:15 PM |
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Yes, but I find it very hard to belive that you don't know that this difficulty is increasing every 11 days (between 12% - 20%). Your calculations are misleading because you know very well what I'm talking about. It's not good for the image of your company to state false numbers, the difficulty it's not static. Present all the risks with buying cloud mining contracts so the costumers can make their calculations . Don't mislead costumers with false calculations, we had enought companies like this! It's not just the difficulty that changes. The price of BTC also changes. Sorry, $2.6 per GH/s is just not competitively priced at all. No ROI for customer at all locked in for a year, only profit for provider and that's it.
Gotta be much lower than $2 per GH to even be considered.
It's all variables and it's all risk. Whether or not you choose to accept it is the question. You can't just make a blanket statement of "if it's not under $2 per GH, it'll never ROI." If the price of BTC shoots up to $1000 tomorrow, that $2 per GH will ROI just fine. Not if you pay in BTC, it won't. If you pay 4 BTC, you'll never mine back 4 BTC under any conditions, whatsoever. So my blanket statement does apply. No, your statement was using USD "...lower than $2 per GH to even be considered". If you pay a current price of $2.60, which is the asking price of the contract, that's your starting point. if BTC crashes to $100 and stays there, you'll never recover your initial investment. If BTC goes to $1000, you're going to make your investment back and then some. Your next statement, "...you'll never mine back 4 BTC under any conditions..." is incorrect. If difficulty were to remain a constant, at current difficulty you'll mine 15.622 BTC in a year. Projecting a 10% difficulty increase will net you ~6 BTC. Since when does difficulty stay still? I actually anticipate a massive spike once Asicminer puts their 15 PH on the network. You're using the wrong calculators dude, no way you'll mine 15.622 BTC under any conditions.
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ChuckBuck
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 11, 2014, 04:50:45 PM |
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Mining have nothing to do with the btc/usd price ratio. You should always report mining only to btc.
I understand what do you mean so we must stick in BTC for mining report, not USDif we do like that, hard to make ROI in 3 months, maybe 4-5 months still possible That is exactly it. You always calculate in BTC (invest) to BTC (mining profit). If you're mining (hardware or cloud) hoping USD rise, but with a risk of not making as much BTC as you put in, you're losing money plain and simple. If you invest in USD, but are also hoping for a BTC price increase, you're better off just buying the Bitcoin outright and sitting on it. You're always taking a risk, which is what my initial statement was. Regardless of if you invest USD, EUR, YEN or BTC, you hope that the output will be greater than your input. If you invest 4 BTC now, you're hoping that difficulty doesn't rise so dramatically as to make it impossible to recover that 4 BTC. If you invest $2599 now, you're hoping that the amount of BTC you earn from mining ends up greater than the $2599 you put in. You always calculate with BTC invest in, never fiat. If you invested 4 BTC, you ROI by making back 4 BTC plus, not what 4 BTC's fiat amount was worth when you invested. That's like saying I paid 4 gold bars for this house, but the house tripled in value, so the 1.33 gold bars I made back is A-OK. Uh, no it's not, you just lost nearly 3 gold bars.
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jonnybravo0311
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June 11, 2014, 05:30:42 PM |
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Since when does difficulty stay still? I actually anticipate a massive spike once Asicminer puts their 15 PH on the network.
You're using the wrong calculators dude, no way you'll mine 15.622 BTC under any conditions.
Um... simple math: Difficulty * 2**32 / hashrate / 86400 = number of days to find a block. 25 / number of days to find a block = expected earnings per day. Expected earnings per day * 365 = total BTC earned over a year. 11756551917 * 2**32 / 1000000000000 / 86400 = 584.42136571 25 / 584.42136571 = .04277735 .04277735 * 365 = 15.6137344
So, yes, assuming static difficulty, you will indeed earn that amount. If you anticipate a 10% increase in difficulty, then you repeat that formula 26 times (assuming a 2 week difficulty change - this one I'll give you is variant because of reliance upon 2016 blocks, rather than actual time). You always calculate with BTC invest in, never fiat.
If you invested 4 BTC, you ROI by making back 4 BTC plus, not what 4 BTC's fiat amount was worth when you invested.
That's like saying I paid 4 gold bars for this house, but the house tripled in value, so the 1.33 gold bars I made back is A-OK. Uh, no it's not, you just lost nearly 3 gold bars.
Your example is wrong. You're converting gold bars into a house. The example would be better had you said, "I gave a guy 4 gold bars hoping that after a year he would return me more than 4 bars."
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Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow! Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets! No SPV cheats. No empty blocks.
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ChuckBuck
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June 11, 2014, 05:33:09 PM |
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@johnnybravo I don't see static anywhere, do you? Difficulty History Date Difficulty Change Hash Rate Jun 05 2014 11,756,551,917 12.44% 84,156,677 GH/s May 24 2014 10,455,720,138 18.10% 74,844,960 GH/s May 12 2014 8,853,416,309 10.66% 63,375,223 GH/s Apr 29 2014 8,000,872,136 14.64% 57,272,474 GH/s Apr 17 2014 6,978,842,650 14.04% 49,956,502 GH/s Apr 05 2014 6,119,726,089 22.23% 43,806,706 GH/s Mar 24 2014 5,006,860,589 17.80% 35,840,504 GH/s Mar 13 2014 4,250,217,920 11.39% 30,424,245 GH/s Feb 28 2014 3,815,723,799 21.92% 27,314,015 GH/s Feb 17 2014 3,129,573,175 19.39% 22,402,357 GH/s Feb 05 2014 2,621,404,453 19.49% 18,764,744 GH/s Jan 24 2014 2,193,847,870 22.59% 15,704,175 GH/s Jan 13 2014 1,789,546,951 26.16% 12,810,076 GH/s Jan 02 2014 1,418,481,395 20.12% 10,153,885 GH/s Dec 21 2013 1,180,923,195 30.01% 8,453,378 GH/s Dec 10 2013 908,350,862 28.41% 6,502,229 GH/s Nov 29 2013 707,408,283 16.07% 5,063,826 GH/s Nov 17 2013 609,482,680 19.29% 4,362,847 GH/s Nov 05 2013 510,929,738 30.70% 3,657,378 GH/s Oct 26 2013 390,928,788 46.02% 2,798,377 GH/s Oct 16 2013 267,731,249 41.45% 1,916,495 GH/s Oct 06 2013 189,281,249 27.19% 1,354,928 GH/s Sep 25 2013 148,819,200 32.13% 1,065,289 GH/s Sep 14 2013 112,628,549 29.56% 806,227 GH/s Sep 04 2013 86,933,018 32.22% 622,291 GH/s Aug 24 2013 65,750,060 29.40% 470,657 GH/s Aug 13 2013 50,810,339 35.88% 363,715 GH/s Aug 03 2013 37,392,766 19.63% 267,668 GH/s Jul 22 2013 31,256,961 19.47% 223,746 GH/s Jul 11 2013 26,162,876 22.63% 187,281 GH/s Jun 29 2013 21,335,329 10.32% 152,724 GH/s Jun 16 2013 19,339,258 23.92% 138,436 GH/s Jun 05 2013 15,605,633 28.41% 111,709 GH/s May 25 2013 12,153,412 8.64% 86,998 GH/s May 12 2013 11,187,257 11.03% 80,082 GH/s Apr 30 2013 10,076,293 12.28% 72,129 GH/s Apr 17 2013 8,974,296 16.96% 64,241 GH/s Apr 05 2013 7,673,000 14.59% 54,925 GH/s Mar 24 2013 6,695,826 38.13% 47,931 GH/s Mar 14 2013 4,847,647 10.98% 34,701 GH/s Mar 01 2013 4,367,876 19.63% 31,266 GH/s Feb 18 2013 3,651,012 11.47% 26,135 GH/s Feb 05 2013 3,275,465 10.33% 23,447 GH/s Jan 23 2013 2,968,775 -8.64% 21,251 GH/s Jan 08 2013 3,249,550 9.06% 23,261 GH/s Dec 26 2012 2,979,637 -11.59% 21,329 GH/s Dec 10 2012 3,370,182 -2.00% 24,125 GH/s Nov 26 2012 3,438,909 2.08% 24,617 GH/s Nov 12 2012 3,368,767 1.95% 24,115 GH/s
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ChuckBuck
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 11, 2014, 05:37:42 PM |
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Your example is wrong. You're converting gold bars into a house. The example would be better had you said, "I gave a guy 4 gold bars hoping that after a year he would return me more than 4 bars." Now you're using your noggin. Under no circumstances, will you earn the 4 BTC's that $2599 mining contract will ever yield in a year. Besides early 2012/2013, difficulty will most likely be in the teens percentage wise, meaning you won't earn back 4 BTC
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grn
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 11, 2014, 05:44:00 PM |
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This is your registered address on the corporate registry
15 DEERHILL, WILNECOTE, TAMWORTH, STAFFORDSHIRE, UNITED KINGDOM, B77 4PA
Is this also where your mining farm and manufacturing is based?
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How is that Lexical analysis working out bickneleski?
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MinerTechnologies (OP)
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June 11, 2014, 05:45:20 PM |
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Please see our address in contact form of our website.
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grn
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 11, 2014, 05:52:24 PM |
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Please see our address in contact form of our website.
Is that where your mining farm and manufacturing is based?
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How is that Lexical analysis working out bickneleski?
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MinerTechnologies (OP)
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June 11, 2014, 05:58:03 PM |
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Yes.
Office:
2 Calico Business Park Amington Industrial Estate Tamworth B77 4DS
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grn
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 11, 2014, 06:01:53 PM |
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Is that Hamel House?
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How is that Lexical analysis working out bickneleski?
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jonnybravo0311
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June 11, 2014, 06:05:08 PM |
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@johnnybravo I don't see static anywhere, do you? Difficulty History Date Difficulty Change Hash Rate Jun 05 2014 11,756,551,917 12.44% 84,156,677 GH/s May 24 2014 10,455,720,138 18.10% 74,844,960 GH/s May 12 2014 8,853,416,309 10.66% 63,375,223 GH/s Apr 29 2014 8,000,872,136 14.64% 57,272,474 GH/s Apr 17 2014 6,978,842,650 14.04% 49,956,502 GH/s Apr 05 2014 6,119,726,089 22.23% 43,806,706 GH/s Mar 24 2014 5,006,860,589 17.80% 35,840,504 GH/s Mar 13 2014 4,250,217,920 11.39% 30,424,245 GH/s Feb 28 2014 3,815,723,799 21.92% 27,314,015 GH/s Feb 17 2014 3,129,573,175 19.39% 22,402,357 GH/s Feb 05 2014 2,621,404,453 19.49% 18,764,744 GH/s Jan 24 2014 2,193,847,870 22.59% 15,704,175 GH/s Jan 13 2014 1,789,546,951 26.16% 12,810,076 GH/s Jan 02 2014 1,418,481,395 20.12% 10,153,885 GH/s Dec 21 2013 1,180,923,195 30.01% 8,453,378 GH/s Dec 10 2013 908,350,862 28.41% 6,502,229 GH/s Nov 29 2013 707,408,283 16.07% 5,063,826 GH/s Nov 17 2013 609,482,680 19.29% 4,362,847 GH/s Nov 05 2013 510,929,738 30.70% 3,657,378 GH/s Oct 26 2013 390,928,788 46.02% 2,798,377 GH/s Oct 16 2013 267,731,249 41.45% 1,916,495 GH/s Oct 06 2013 189,281,249 27.19% 1,354,928 GH/s Sep 25 2013 148,819,200 32.13% 1,065,289 GH/s Sep 14 2013 112,628,549 29.56% 806,227 GH/s Sep 04 2013 86,933,018 32.22% 622,291 GH/s Aug 24 2013 65,750,060 29.40% 470,657 GH/s Aug 13 2013 50,810,339 35.88% 363,715 GH/s Aug 03 2013 37,392,766 19.63% 267,668 GH/s Jul 22 2013 31,256,961 19.47% 223,746 GH/s Jul 11 2013 26,162,876 22.63% 187,281 GH/s Jun 29 2013 21,335,329 10.32% 152,724 GH/s Jun 16 2013 19,339,258 23.92% 138,436 GH/s Jun 05 2013 15,605,633 28.41% 111,709 GH/s May 25 2013 12,153,412 8.64% 86,998 GH/s May 12 2013 11,187,257 11.03% 80,082 GH/s Apr 30 2013 10,076,293 12.28% 72,129 GH/s Apr 17 2013 8,974,296 16.96% 64,241 GH/s Apr 05 2013 7,673,000 14.59% 54,925 GH/s Mar 24 2013 6,695,826 38.13% 47,931 GH/s Mar 14 2013 4,847,647 10.98% 34,701 GH/s Mar 01 2013 4,367,876 19.63% 31,266 GH/s Feb 18 2013 3,651,012 11.47% 26,135 GH/s Feb 05 2013 3,275,465 10.33% 23,447 GH/s Jan 23 2013 2,968,775 -8.64% 21,251 GH/s Jan 08 2013 3,249,550 9.06% 23,261 GH/s Dec 26 2012 2,979,637 -11.59% 21,329 GH/s Dec 10 2012 3,370,182 -2.00% 24,125 GH/s Nov 26 2012 3,438,909 2.08% 24,617 GH/s Nov 12 2012 3,368,767 1.95% 24,115 GH/s Nope... never once did I state that I believed it would remain static, or that it had. I simply provided proof that your statement of "under no conditions" was incorrect. I certainly don't believe it will remain static simply because more hashing power is constantly added to the network. But, that's back to my statement on risk. If I were to invest 4 BTC in mining gear, I am hopeful that said gear will return me back more than that 4 BTC. If the difficulty increases at ~15%, I won't make it. If it is 10% I will. If I invest $2599 on a contract, I am hopeful that at the end of the year, the BTC I have earned can be converted into USD with a value of more than $2599. Maybe I can explain this in a different way: I make three investments. Investment 1 is to purchase 4 BTC at $2599. Investment 2 is to purchase a 1TH/s mining contract for $2599. Investment 3 is to purchase that same 1TH/s mining contract for 4 BTC. For investment 1, I am hopeful that the price of BTC increases and after a year, I can sell them for profit. For investment 2, I am hopeful that my contract has earned me enough BTC to sell for more than the $2599 I initially invested. For investment 3, I am hopeful that my contract has earned me more than the 4 BTC. This one is the "I gave some guy 4 gold bars and hoped he gives me back more than 4 at the end." One needs to evaluate the risks and make a choice. Your assessment, if I read it correctly, is that investment 3 is a fool's errand. Others might state, "Gee, I don't think BTC is going to see >10% increases from this point forward, so let's go with investment 3." If you've spent time going through my posts throughout the forums here, you'll know that I have invested in hardware. I made that decision for two reasons. First, is because I believe in BTC, and I wish to contribute to its success. I mine, and I do so on p2pool. The second reason, and one that is not so altruistic, is that I hope to make a profit while supporting BTC. My personal opinion is that cloud hashing is slanted in favor of the company providing the hosting. As someone else wrote in another post, "Why would they sell you $1 for $0.75?" Companies providing cloud hosting have evaluated the risks/rewards and it is their stance that they will make more by selling hashing power to you and me than they would just hashing for themselves.
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Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow! Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets! No SPV cheats. No empty blocks.
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