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Author Topic: Capitalism and immorality  (Read 10391 times)
MysticalPotato
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June 02, 2014, 01:13:32 PM
 #21

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly. 
The economy of the colonies flourished because of the support of merchant princes. These new breed of economic barons became wealthy as a result of the Industrial Revolution. The revolution, in turn, was financed by the taxes generated from the Jamaican sugar industry. Post independence, the American socioeconomic model is extremely socialist - especially for entrepreneurs.

Capitalism, as we know it today, only emerged in the mid-19th century when more businesses began to emerge independent of the arms of the aristocracy and its proxies. However, its incredible success was achieved on the back of low-to-zero labor cost of slave laborers and an enormous amount of natural resources and land.

The issue is a complex one.

"Politeness induces morality. Serenity of manners requires serenity of mind.” - Julia Ward Howe

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kerafym
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June 02, 2014, 02:34:25 PM
 #22

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly. 
The economy of the colonies flourished because of the support of merchant princes. These new breed of economic barons became wealthy as a result of the Industrial Revolution. The revolution, in turn, was financed by the taxes generated from the Jamaican sugar industry. Post independence, the American socioeconomic model is extremely socialist - especially for entrepreneurs.

Capitalism, as we know it today, only emerged in the mid-19th century when more businesses began to emerge independent of the arms of the aristocracy and its proxies. However, its incredible success was achieved on the back of low-to-zero labor cost of slave laborers and an enormous amount of natural resources and land.

The issue is a complex one.


So, American success has nothing to do with capitalism?

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June 02, 2014, 03:04:34 PM
 #23

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly. 
The economy of the colonies flourished because of the support of merchant princes. These new breed of economic barons became wealthy as a result of the Industrial Revolution. The revolution, in turn, was financed by the taxes generated from the Jamaican sugar industry. Post independence, the American socioeconomic model is extremely socialist - especially for entrepreneurs.

Capitalism, as we know it today, only emerged in the mid-19th century when more businesses began to emerge independent of the arms of the aristocracy and its proxies. However, its incredible success was achieved on the back of low-to-zero labor cost of slave laborers and an enormous amount of natural resources and land.

The issue is a complex one.


So, American success has nothing to do with capitalism?

That's right. American capitalism has always been a smokescreen for oligarchy. The term capitalism refers to the financial affairs of state, not how your community operates.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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June 02, 2014, 03:10:53 PM
 #24

Where resources are not unlimited, capitalism is the only way to efficiently allocate resources over a large population. It's not about capital, but about decentralization. The size and complexity anything is inversely proportional to the degree that centralization works. Capitalism is the decentralization of allocation.

http://mises.org/daily/3229
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June 02, 2014, 03:34:17 PM
 #25

Where resources are not unlimited, capitalism is the only way to efficiently allocate resources over a large population. It's not about capital, but about decentralization. The size and complexity anything is inversely proportional to the degree that centralization works. Capitalism is the decentralization of allocation.
Only? Capitalism is a way to aggregate resources (capital) through private means. Private != decentralized.

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June 02, 2014, 04:07:54 PM
 #26

There is no economic system or political power structure on earth that will mitigate the effects of greed.  

We have only our own nature to blame for that one.
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June 02, 2014, 04:10:05 PM
 #27

Agree with above poster, but capitalism encourages greed.
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June 02, 2014, 04:18:27 PM
 #28

Agree with above poster, but capitalism encourages greed.

Any system that unshackles restraints on how much a person can acquire in this life promotes greed.  As it would turn out, capitalism so far has been best at it.
 
This is the core issue where morality, economics, and politics meet.  How does a country balance out that "greed" vs need for the betterment of as many of its people as it can?  Communism and fascism tried and were found to be very lacking. 
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June 02, 2014, 04:23:13 PM
 #29

Agree with above poster, but capitalism encourages greed.

Any system that unshackles restraints on how much a person can acquire in this life promotes greed.  As it would turn out, capitalism so far has been best at it.
  
This is the core issue where morality, economics, and politics meet.  How does a country balance out that "greed" vs need for the betterment of as many of its people as it can?  Communism and fascism tried and were found to be very lacking.  


Need to have balance approach. Stalin and Mao run a fascist regime, people are mistaking it for Communism.

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June 02, 2014, 04:30:39 PM
 #30

Agree with above poster, but capitalism encourages greed.

Any system that unshackles restraints on how much a person can acquire in this life promotes greed.  As it would turn out, capitalism so far has been best at it.
  
This is the core issue where morality, economics, and politics meet.  How does a country balance out that "greed" vs need for the betterment of as many of its people as it can?  Communism and fascism tried. 

We never tried being smart.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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June 02, 2014, 04:37:08 PM
 #31

Well, anything is an improvement form the status quo, but i don't think capitalism is the best way forward.

I personally believe in ubuntu, however i doubt it will gain enough traction.
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June 02, 2014, 04:53:42 PM
 #32

Freedom is greedy, and statism is moral.  Roll Eyes

http://mises.org/daily/3229
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June 02, 2014, 05:08:40 PM
 #33

Quote
"When you are born into this world all pieces of land are already owned by someone else."  The answer is you will get a job and earn some bitcoin and buy it from somebody who wishes to sell it. You may inherit it as well.  There is nothing wrong with inherited wealth.  I don't fret that men like BIll Gates and Warren Buffet have loads of money.  They have made our lives infinitely better through their innovations and skill.  Their massive wealth was well earned and I admire them for it.  But wait a few generations and see how much wealth the heirs of Bill Gates will have.  I predict very little.  It will get spread out through the population because few men create that kind of wealth and even fewer can keep it.  Have many Kennedys and Rockefellers have the same power and money their ancestors had?  None that I know of.  


Sadly it doesn't work out that way, it would be great if it would. But the rich are usually getting richer or at least stay rich. They have the wealth to give their children good education, they have the connections to lead them to a good job. Most of the poor never have a real chance no matter how hard they try.
Of course there are execptions where someone makes it from zero to hero or falls down from wealth, but it isn't the norm.




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man's natural rights
There are no natural rights, only rights we make up ourselves as humanity.
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June 02, 2014, 05:40:10 PM
 #34

Google Image "tesla bloodline" ... this is how things should of turned out
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June 02, 2014, 07:28:00 PM
 #35

Agree with above poster, but capitalism encourages greed.

Any system that unshackles restraints on how much a person can acquire in this life promotes greed.  As it would turn out, capitalism so far has been best at it.
  
This is the core issue where morality, economics, and politics meet.  How does a country balance out that "greed" vs need for the betterment of as many of its people as it can?  Communism and fascism tried and were found to be very lacking.  


and technical as well, I would add to the list ... This, reflect somehow the way bitcoin protocol works ... take a look about "Selfish Mining"


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326559.0

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June 02, 2014, 07:30:09 PM
 #36

Keep blaming greed and human nature and see how far you get. It's like complaining about the density of air for why we don't have flying cars.

http://mises.org/daily/3229
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June 02, 2014, 07:33:39 PM
 #37

Ayn Rand makes a strong case for the morality of capitalism. People who are interested can read her. I largely agree with her case. So, good for the OP. Fun fact: Rand hated libertarians.

The basis of most libertarian moral judgements go back to the NAP (non-aggression principle). Since taxes are clearly collected under threat of punishment, taxation can be seen as an initiation of aggression. So taxation can be seen as morally incompatible with the NAP.

I also find anti-capitalism propaganda annoying, but the important thing is that it's informative. When someone starts talking about people paying their "fair share" and so on, it informs me their morality is not based on the NAP. In fact, they clearly think it is moral to steal my property, as long as its done via governments. A great thing about bitcoin is that they can want to steal it all they want, but they still can't actually steal it. In fact, I'm so against them taking my bitcoins that I purposefully lost all my private keys in a tragic boating accident.

Even if I get annoyed, I certainly don't want to put anti-capitalists in prison for having a different lifestyle from me. It's a shame they want to put libertarians in prison for refusing to conform to their lifestyle.

Note that the morality of capitalism is independent of whether or not capitalism is an efficient, productive economic system. There is a lot of evidence for defending capitalism in that way as well. It's simply a different question.

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June 02, 2014, 09:31:09 PM
 #38

To answer a few questions…..

OP I have a few questions for you.

1. Do you believe in bailouts for failure?
         No.  Not government bailouts.  Never.

2. Do you believe in Bonuses for failure?
         No.  Not for government entities.  If private organizations or corporations want to give bonuses for failure, that's their concern.  Unless I am a stockholder, I couldn't     
               care less.

3. Do you believe the wealthy deserve to be saved from ruin through bailouts for failure?
       I don't believe anybody deserves to be saved from failure if that means others have to pay for it.

4. Do you believe others should be bailed out while still others are forced to pay for those bailouts?
       Nope.

" Sure, society needs to care for those that can't or wont, but not "reward" them. "
       Oh, heck no!  That's the immorality of altruism working.  If private individuals want to help the less fortunate, that is allowed.  Forcing somebody to be charitable is wrong. Immoral. Evil.


Finally, the last few posts kept using the word "greed" like it a bad thing.  It's not.  To quote Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good. Greed works."  Greed is each person looking out for themselves and striving to accumulate as much wealth as possible.  This is what drives innovation and industry.  I want everybody who is capable of achieving stellar success to get there, because they lift up average people like me in the process.  Capitalism protects me from being abused or forced to work for someone else.


People who achieve wealth through government subsidies and favors are helping nobody but themselves.  They lack the ability to succeed on their own and rely on pull and influence to get ahead.  They are the immoral product of altruism.
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June 02, 2014, 09:55:52 PM
 #39

The problems with fractional systems are not easy ...


How big is infinity? - Dennis Wildfogel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPA3bwVVzGI

The Infinite Hotel Paradox - Jeff Dekofsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj3_KqkI9Zo

Fractional-reserve banking,

Quote
... To mitigate the risks of bank runs (when a large proportion of depositors seek withdrawal of their demand deposits at the same time) or, when problems are extreme and widespread, systemic crises, the governments of most countries regulate and oversee commercial banks, provide deposit insurance and act as lender of last resort to commercial banks.[1][2] In most countries, the central bank (or other monetary authority) regulates bank credit creation, imposing reserve requirements and capital adequacy ratios. This can limit the amount of money creation that occurs in the commercial banking system, and helps to ensure that banks are solvent and have enough funds to meet demand for withdrawals.[2] However, rather than directly limiting the money supply, central banks typically pursue an interest rate target to control bank issuance of credit

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June 02, 2014, 10:07:07 PM
Last edit: June 02, 2014, 10:22:35 PM by Birdy
 #40

Quote
Finally, the last few posts kept using the word "greed" like it a bad thing.  It's not.  To quote Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good. Greed works."  Greed is each person looking out for themselves and striving to accumulate as much wealth as possible.  This is what drives innovation and industry.  I want everybody who is capable of achieving stellar success to get there, because they lift up average people like me in the process.  Capitalism protects me from being abused or forced to work for someone else.

The word greed is bad by defintion, it's wanting something so badly that the negative consequences outdo all positives.
If you are searching for the good word, it's "ambition".

Ok, enough of unimportant blather, here is where the main problem stems from:

Quote
Capitalism protects me from being abused or forced to work for someone else.
Sorry to break this news to you, but it doesn't. Unless you think dieing by starvation is acceptable as alternative.
There are others forces than those by persons.

So you can talk about "non aggression principle" all day, the fact is you are completely ignoring those other forces even when they can be just as cruel as the "aggression" you hate so much.

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