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Author Topic: Capitalism and immorality  (Read 10391 times)
neofelis
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June 01, 2014, 04:48:08 PM
 #1

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly.  Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens and began the immoral taxation to pay for any number of programs.  A central bank was even formed in the early 1800s that lasted for several years.  Despite the slow encroachment of oppressive government, the US lead the world in innovation and wealth accumulation during the 1800s and most of the 1900s.  This was all due to capitalism and limited government.

As a liberterian, a TRUE liberterian,  I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING.   The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.  Forcibly taking wealth from somebody and giving to somebody else is wrong/immoral/evil.

Bitcoin thankfully takes the power of money creation out of the hands of governments which is why there are so many libertarians on this forum.

I could talk about morality and philosophy all day long but this probably isn't the right forum.  I just wanted to point out that true unrestricted capitalism is the moral engine that drives wealth creation in this world.
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June 01, 2014, 05:11:36 PM
 #2

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly.  Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens and began the immoral taxation to pay for any number of programs.  A central bank was even formed in the early 1800s that lasted for several years.  Despite the slow encroachment of oppressive government, the US lead the world in innovation and wealth accumulation during the 1800s and most of the 1900s.  This was all due to capitalism and limited government.

As a liberterian, a TRUE liberterian,  I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING.   The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.  Forcibly taking wealth from somebody and giving to somebody else is wrong/immoral/evil.

Bitcoin thankfully takes the power of money creation out of the hands of governments which is why there are so many libertarians on this forum.

I could talk about morality and philosophy all day long but this probably isn't the right forum.  I just wanted to point out that true unrestricted capitalism is the moral engine that drives wealth creation in this world.
You mean there can be no bitcoin in the time of socialism or communism?
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June 01, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
 #3

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

You make a bold statement like this and offer nothing to back it up. Seems legit.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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June 01, 2014, 05:49:56 PM
Last edit: June 01, 2014, 09:17:07 PM by beatljuice
 #4

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

You make a bold statement like this and offer nothing to back it up. Seems legit.

I think the way neofelis should have put it is that capitalism is the most moral solution we've come up with - which I agree with. There are problems with it. Like there is little incentive in capitalism to protect those that are having their rights violated.
neofelis
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June 01, 2014, 06:07:34 PM
 #5

If individual rights are being violated, that is not capitalism. Capitalism protects individual rights.


Morality, simply put, it not using force or threat of force in transactions.  Capitalism, pure capitalism, does not allow the initiation of force in interactions between men.   Every other form of government see force to take from men the product if their labor.

Socialism, dictatorships, royalty, fascism, you name it. These all violate men's rights for "the good of society" and are therefore immoral.
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June 01, 2014, 06:08:53 PM
 #6

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

If you mean free market capitalism, I completely agree. Captalism has been to much in the hands of oligarchs. Proof:
America is an oligarchy, not a democracy or republic, university study finds
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

And how can there be a free market ever, if we have a monopoly currency? To make things worse, the issuer of this currency is suppressing the core market mechanism of capitalism.
How Crony Capitalism Corrupts the Free Market | David Stockman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3AKiWGawGs   

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June 01, 2014, 07:48:16 PM
 #7

And how can there be a free market ever, if we have a monopoly currency?

We fight the monopoly and break it.  That's how.

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June 01, 2014, 08:06:06 PM
 #8

fiat is evil towards to infinite .. my salary is never enough to pay my bills .. inflationary money is a new mode of slavery ... 

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June 01, 2014, 09:13:21 PM
 #9

If individual rights are being violated, that is not capitalism. Capitalism protects individual rights.


Morality, simply put, it not using force or threat of force in transactions.  Capitalism, pure capitalism, does not allow the initiation of force in interactions between men.   Every other form of government see force to take from men the product if their labor.

Socialism, dictatorships, royalty, fascism, you name it. These all violate men's rights for "the good of society" and are therefore immoral.

You're not wrong about the definition of capitalism, but you are wrong about the practice. Whenever there are people involved things get screwy, because people are screwed up.

I'm pretty sure a socialist would argue that pure socialism doesn't involve violence or force because everyone is supposed to be taking care of everyone else, and while that sounds great on paper it doesn't really pan out when you get real people involved.
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June 01, 2014, 10:12:54 PM
Last edit: June 01, 2014, 11:04:14 PM by Birdy
 #10

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly.  Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens and began the immoral taxation to pay for any number of programs.  A central bank was even formed in the early 1800s that lasted for several years.  Despite the slow encroachment of oppressive government, the US lead the world in innovation and wealth accumulation during the 1800s and most of the 1900s.  This was all due to capitalism and limited government.

As a liberterian, a TRUE liberterian,  I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING.   The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.  Forcibly taking wealth from somebody and giving to somebody else is wrong/immoral/evil.

Bitcoin thankfully takes the power of money creation out of the hands of governments which is why there are so many libertarians on this forum.

I could talk about morality and philosophy all day long but this probably isn't the right forum.  I just wanted to point out that true unrestricted capitalism is the moral engine that drives wealth creation in this world.

Capitalism itself has no moral standpoint, it doesn't say anymore than "money is power, try to achieve wealth by doing stuff".
It doesn't care if you achieve it by exploiting others or by being a great inventor.
But people do.
"Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens[...]" , you are even saying it yourself.
Guess what will happen then. The neutral capitalism will be shifted by those who gained power first.
This will lead to some form of government/restrictions for other people.
-> true unrestricted capitalism can only exist for a short timeframe.

Quote
The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.
By guarding a right for someone, you are also restricting someone else.
Think about this sentence: When you are born into this world all pieces of land are already owned by someone else.

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June 02, 2014, 01:09:01 AM
 #11

Crony capitalism and exploitation through inflation are the evils that the western governments have introduced to free markets. Wrestle away the currency and you stop them cold.

neofelis
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June 02, 2014, 02:11:10 AM
 #12


Capitalism itself has no moral standpoint, it doesn't say anymore than "money is power, try to achieve wealth by doing stuff".
It doesn't care if you achieve it by exploiting others or by being a great inventor.
But people do.
"Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens[...]" , you are even saying it yourself.
Guess what will happen then. The neutral capitalism will be shifted by those who gained power first.
This will lead to some form of government/restrictions for other people.
-> true unrestricted capitalism can only exist for a short timeframe.

Quote
The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.
By guarding a right for someone, you are also restricting someone else.
Think about this sentence: When you are born into this world all pieces of land are already owned by someone else.



I have to disagree on a few points.  Capitalism is based on a rational view of the nature of man. Man cannot exist and live as man in the absence of freedom.  That is why the dominate philosophy of this century has led to the decay of the US and western society.  That is the philosophy of altruism.  Excuse me while I channel my inner Ayn Rand…Altruism leads men to believe that it is a virtue to sacrifice oneself for others.  Even a little bit is considered noble.  This leads to man feeling guilty for not "giving more" than they already do.  We look at monks, who give everything to serve others and live in poverty, as the ideal to live up to.  This becomes a problem when men achieve political power, the power to initiate the use of force against men.  This power is given to the politicians by the very people who elect them into office.  With the philosophy of altruism permeating our society, it is now very easy for these men of power to use that power to force men who "haven't given enough" to "do the right thing."

Unrestricted capitalism will only be able to exist for a short while until the philosophy of altruism is no longer taught.  The correct philosophy for man to exist qua man (as a man and not a slave) is Objectivism.  Objectivism teaches rational self-interest and the ultimate value and virtue.  Objectivism is the only philosophy based on reason and man's use of it to guide his decisions. 

Under true and unrestricted capitalism, individual rights are the most sacred (if I can use that term) asset a country can preserve.  No law can be written that violates a man's natural rights and no man can violate the rights of another without breaking the law in doing so.  The initiation of force is given exclusively to the government and man can only use force for self defense or the defense of others. Those in power cannot pass laws that violate rights, period. This leads to a very narrow scope of government, namely police, military and a system of courts.  Any other use of government force will violate man's right to property. Everything else - education, infrastructure, social programs, etc are all immoral. To supply one little old lady with a government pension check seems like a noble deed.  But that deed is based on a million tiny little uses of force to take the money from somebody else who actually earned it.  I'll stop here.


"When you are born into this world all pieces of land are already owned by someone else."  The answer is you will get a job and earn some bitcoin and buy it from somebody who wishes to sell it. You may inherit it as well.  There is nothing wrong with inherited wealth.  I don't fret that men like BIll Gates and Warren Buffet have loads of money.  They have made our lives infinitely better through their innovations and skill.  Their massive wealth was well earned and I admire them for it.  But wait a few generations and see how much wealth the heirs of Bill Gates will have.  I predict very little.  It will get spread out through the population because few men create that kind of wealth and even fewer can keep it.  Have many Kennedys and Rockefellers have the same power and money their ancestors had?  None that I know of. 

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June 02, 2014, 03:51:41 AM
Last edit: June 02, 2014, 04:21:58 AM by Slingshot
 #13

 To the phony libertarians and others that desire to claim that taxes are evil, or whatever. Get lost. Go in the jungle, stay there. Or pay your fair, legal share, like everyone else. Otherwise your simply a parasitical maggot, a criminal, a low life evil scum bag, much like banksters.


OP I have a few questions for you.


1. Do you believe in bailouts for failure?

2. Do you believe in Bonuses for failure?

3. Do you believe the wealthy deserve to be saved from ruin through bailouts for failure?

4. Do you believe others should be bailed out while still others are forced to pay for those bailouts?

 It appears your more than a 'bit' confused.


 Capitalism never rewards failure

 And real "free market" capitalism NEVER rewards failure.

 There is always RISK with capitalism.

 Take away that risk and suddenly it's not "free markets" nor "capitalism".


 Sure, society needs to care for those that can't or wont, but not "reward" them.
We must not take the incentive to strive to care for oneself away. Rewarding failure does that.
Bailing out the wealthy ruling elite 'oligarchy' is so far removed from capitalism it's mind boggling.
Some simply can't take care of themselves. Only civilized societies care for them, in others their termed the 'homeless' and much worse.

 What we have today is a form of Corporate Fascism, or whatever one cares to label it, but I prefer that term and the following one better.

 Maybe best defined as Bankster Fascism. It was extremely well hidden for many decades. Not any more. The curtain has been removed.

 We only have the very best government that the wealthy ruling elite have been able to purchase. Nothing more, nothing less. That's a major problem until finally it's not. Just like communism or any other form of dictatorships and elite ruling monarchies. Yet people by and large keep falling for their propaganda. Until finally they don't. Turn off the TV. Get your news from much better sources. Only then will one start learning the truth instead of the lies, half truths, and spin that they must have you believe to keep ruling.

 What the western world at large, with only tiny exceptions, is not even remotely capitalism or "free market capitalism". OP, your terribly confused and brainwashed IF that is what you believe. I trust it isn't.

 Cowards die a thousand deaths. Every fascist, communist, and parasite all die a thousand deaths. But that isn't nearly justice enough.

 Rule #101 -  NEVER do business with Communists or Fascists.
Some parasites and criminals forgot that rule, so have most others.

 Capitalism is returning soon, everyone that possibly can will be required to carry their own water, and a whole lot of bailout queens are going to soon end in utter ruin. Same for communists and fascists. This all ends soon, and extremely badly for those that are responsible. They just don't know it yet.

 No one cares for financial bondage from cradle to grave by way of DEBT-based-fiat ponzi schemes and other banking ponzi schemes.


 Bitcoin is Capitalism. And that's exactly why Bankers and certain other types such as communists, fascists, and dictators absolutely hate it.
=============

  i.e. - if one thinks deregulation and privatization are 'the solutions' (per Ron Paul 2008) and Alan Greenspan, plus Ann Rand then one is 100% wrong. That's how they began stealing everything. And their not going to stop stealing everything (that's what financial pirates who are cunning psychopaths do, their employees too) until their stopped, or ruin everything for everyone, it will be the latter in the present case. And that's when their time ends and how this insanity finally ends up in the dust bin of history.


Bitcoin is Freedom.
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June 02, 2014, 04:18:49 AM
Last edit: June 02, 2014, 04:34:02 AM by Slingshot
 #14


As a liberterian, a TRUE liberterian,  I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING.   The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.  Forcibly taking wealth from somebody and giving to somebody else is wrong/immoral/evil.

 Grow the hell up! Or prepare to see your complete and total ruin.

 These kiddies are spoiled so rotten their inhuman parasites.


RE: " I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING."

 What a parasitical maggot. What a bum. A thief. A criminal. A low life scumbag.

 This scumbag: Just like the central bankers and their member banks whom demand the FED's earnings are 100% tax free at the FED. Of course they print their (our) dollars for free electronically. Then have the gall to insist our government and us pay for them in perpetuity (forever) at usurious (ruinous) rates of interest.

 Well those "libertarians" at the FED will cost the citizens of the USA nearly half a Trillion dollars this year alone. And it just keeps getting much worse every passing day. Soon it ends badly.

 Your NOT a "true" anything but a parasitical maggot. What a bum. A thief. A criminal. A low life scumbag. Your a traitor. A risk to national security. Just like the Fed.

 OP you come here to whine and cry about taxes when your nothing but an immoral and evil scumbag. Get over it. Grow UP. Or else it's going to end badly for you too.

 This is exactly what happens to children that have terrible parenting or just turn out to be spoiled rotten worthless psychopaths or sociopaths. Usually caused by a lack of a good male role model. I blame it mostly on spoiled rotten mothers whom toss out the fathers.


The OP; yet another freeloading parasitical maggot. Yea, you think you can hide behind some form of anonymity and not pay taxes with bitcoins. Your an idiot.

 And then he/she has the nerve to come here and attempt to preach capitalism when they never have apparently practiced it themselves and know nothing about real capitalism.


Bitcoin is sheer justice.
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June 02, 2014, 04:37:43 AM
 #15

Quote
2. Do you believe in Bonuses for failure?

yes they're real ...

you should watch this video at this point ... 18'25''

http://youtu.be/ed2FWNWwE3I?t=18m25s

I dont beleive in city, wall st. bonus schema ... and European is right to rule a cap on bank bonuses... of course the right wing politicians backed by bankers are against it and sing their anti european song .. nationalism yada yada .. bla bla  


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June 02, 2014, 04:41:25 AM
 #16

 The OP here is preaching to return not to colonial times, but instead to mid-evil feudalism. Of course he doesn't even know the first thing about that either.

 We pay for these worthless creatures educations, subsidize their parents while their raised, often subsidize their health care costs and a whole lot more, care for them as any civilized society does. Even go as far as keep their neighborhoods safe as we can, keep the roads built, provide all the services for a modern society that one possibly can, even fire trucks at the ready. This is how they behave in turn...

 Then these maggots come here and preach what?

 By all means Grow Up OP.

 Put the drugs or whatever down.

 Get a job. Earn money. Be happy.


 So far the only ones that are immoral is the OP and now another fool. What ass-wipes.

 You know nothing.
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June 02, 2014, 05:06:56 AM
 #17

The OP here is preaching to return not to colonial times, but instead to mid-evil feudalism. Of course he doesn't even know the first thing about that either.

 We pay for these worthless creatures educations, subsidize their parents while their raised, often subsidize their health care costs and a whole lot more, care for them as any civilized society does. Even go as far as keep their neighborhoods safe as we can, keep the roads built, provide all the services for a modern society that one possibly can, even fire trucks at the ready. This is how they behave in turn...

 Then these maggots come here and preach what?

 By all means Grow Up OP.

 Put the drugs or whatever down.

 Get a job. Earn money. Be happy.


 So far the only ones that are immoral is the OP and now another fool. What ass-wipes.

 You know nothing.

The planet have limited resources ...


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June 02, 2014, 05:58:24 AM
 #18

To the phony libertarians and others that desire to claim that taxes are evil, or whatever. Get lost. Go in the jungle, stay there. Or pay your fair, legal share, like everyone else. Otherwise your simply a parasitical maggot, a criminal, a low life evil scum bag, much like banksters.


OP I have a few questions for you.


1. Do you believe in bailouts for failure?

2. Do you believe in Bonuses for failure?

3. Do you believe the wealthy deserve to be saved from ruin through bailouts for failure?

4. Do you believe others should be bailed out while still others are forced to pay for those bailouts?

 It appears your more than a 'bit' confused.


 Capitalism never rewards failure

 And real "free market" capitalism NEVER rewards failure.

 There is always RISK with capitalism.

 Take away that risk and suddenly it's not "free markets" nor "capitalism".


 Sure, society needs to care for those that can't or wont, but not "reward" them.
We must not take the incentive to strive to care for oneself away. Rewarding failure does that.
Bailing out the wealthy ruling elite 'oligarchy' is so far removed from capitalism it's mind boggling.
Some simply can't take care of themselves. Only civilized societies care for them, in others their termed the 'homeless' and much worse.

 What we have today is a form of Corporate Fascism, or whatever one cares to label it, but I prefer that term and the following one better.

 Maybe best defined as Bankster Fascism. It was extremely well hidden for many decades. Not any more. The curtain has been removed.

 We only have the very best government that the wealthy ruling elite have been able to purchase. Nothing more, nothing less. That's a major problem until finally it's not. Just like communism or any other form of dictatorships and elite ruling monarchies. Yet people by and large keep falling for their propaganda. Until finally they don't. Turn off the TV. Get your news from much better sources. Only then will one start learning the truth instead of the lies, half truths, and spin that they must have you believe to keep ruling.

 What the western world at large, with only tiny exceptions, is not even remotely capitalism or "free market capitalism". OP, your terribly confused and brainwashed IF that is what you believe. I trust it isn't.

 Cowards die a thousand deaths. Every fascist, communist, and parasite all die a thousand deaths. But that isn't nearly justice enough.

 Rule #101 -  NEVER do business with Communists or Fascists.
Some parasites and criminals forgot that rule, so have most others.

 Capitalism is returning soon, everyone that possibly can will be required to carry their own water, and a whole lot of bailout queens are going to soon end in utter ruin. Same for communists and fascists. This all ends soon, and extremely badly for those that are responsible. They just don't know it yet.

 No one cares for financial bondage from cradle to grave by way of DEBT-based-fiat ponzi schemes and other banking ponzi schemes.


 Bitcoin is Capitalism. And that's exactly why Bankers and certain other types such as communists, fascists, and dictators absolutely hate it.
=============

  i.e. - if one thinks deregulation and privatization are 'the solutions' (per Ron Paul 2008) and Alan Greenspan, plus Ann Rand then one is 100% wrong. That's how they began stealing everything. And their not going to stop stealing everything (that's what financial pirates who are cunning psychopaths do, their employees too) until their stopped, or ruin everything for everyone, it will be the latter in the present case. And that's when their time ends and how this insanity finally ends up in the dust bin of history.


Bitcoin is Freedom.

Do you have anything to say beyond "grow up" and name calling? You don't need to attack the original poster to disagree, just make your case and let people decide.

I am a libertarian and actually agree with some of your points. You lost me with the condescending hyper aggressive bullshit though.   

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June 02, 2014, 06:49:37 AM
 #19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYJtHd28BXU


Related to capitalism and morality.
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June 02, 2014, 06:49:57 AM
 #20

Captaism have many problems ... and I'm against the bankers bonus scheme (if they make profit they pocket as bonus, if they have losses then is their clients money and in the last instance the tax payers will pay the bill, because they're too big to fail ... is complete unfair game ) I still beleive in satoshi's message on genesis block though thats the reason idealists still on this communite, isn't it ? ...

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