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Author Topic: If bitcoin ever goes mainstream  (Read 29017 times)
sanadas
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January 05, 2016, 07:39:21 PM
 #281

The more the merrier.

For me bitcoin doesn't have to succeed, it already did. The people made bitcoin and the banks got scared big time.

Now it is for them introducing a new scheme Wink

I do not think banks should be scared of bitcoin. This is new business opportunity for them. They can continue banking with bitccoin besides fiat.

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January 05, 2016, 08:48:10 PM
 #282

While bitcoin will eventually go mainstream, i think this will take years and years still considering the increase of countries banning btc.
Notice that marketing a Bitcoin related website targeting common people on facebook will just be a waste as it would take time to explain from what is bitcoin than to what the site offers. people only have less than a minute of focus viewing an ad.



Well i got no doubt it will go mainstream. There is just nothing like bitcoin nor will any other altcoin be able to compete with bitcoin.
So when we do, I would be the first one to tell my friends; "T told you so"
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January 05, 2016, 11:44:23 PM
 #283

considering the increase of countries banning btc.

I've not noticed that many countries have been banning Bitcoin. Maybe I just missed it because my country does not. Could you list these countries that have banned Bitcoin?

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January 06, 2016, 08:48:44 AM
 #284

considering the increase of countries banning btc.

I've not noticed that many countries have been banning Bitcoin. Maybe I just missed it because my country does not. Could you list these countries that have banned Bitcoin?

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/top-10-countries-bitcoin-banned/

mostly restriction no real ban i think, but the only one that banned bitcoin for real is bangladesh, where they put you in jail
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February 10, 2016, 11:25:11 PM
 #285

One of my biggest concerns on bitcoin is that long before bitcoin being mainstream, governments would realize the real danger of losing control over the monetary police and would start cracking on bitcoin.

For bitcoin to be near mainstream, like paypal is currently, the bitcoin economy would need to be huge. With billions invested. A concerted ban from a few nations would provoke a huge crash on bitcoin's price. Bitcoin would survive, but its economy would be in ruins. People that invest billions won't go against governments. They are not cyber-anarchists or hackers.

Actually, currently, a real ban from China would send the price below 100 fast. Being dependent on a government like the Chinese isn't good.

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February 10, 2016, 11:29:45 PM
 #286

considering the increase of countries banning btc.

I've not noticed that many countries have been banning Bitcoin. Maybe I just missed it because my country does not. Could you list these countries that have banned Bitcoin?

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/top-10-countries-bitcoin-banned/

mostly restriction no real ban i think, but the only one that banned bitcoin for real is bangladesh, where they put you in jail
tbe good thing govermants starting to recodnize bitcoin the bad thing is that some of them are banning it for no good reasons
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February 11, 2016, 01:00:25 AM
 #287

I don't know what happen to bitcoin if goes mainstream, if it's good news maybe the bitcoins price will increase because many people use it and bitcoin will have many ads on it.
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February 26, 2016, 08:53:32 PM
 #288

If bitcoin went mainstream, what would be the price of bitcoin?

If we assume, as I did in the OP, that mainstream is 10% of the population using it, let's divide 21,000,000 bitcoins by 700,000,000 persons (10% of the world population). The result is 0.03 btc to each person.

If we take from the 21,000,000 half that will always be hoarded or lost, we'll have 0.015 to each person. People will have to be able to buy all the things mainstream people buy with 0.015, including cars or even houses.

The Rock Trading Exchange forges its order books with bots, uses them to scam customers and is trying to appropriate 35000 euro from a forum member https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4975753.0
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February 26, 2016, 11:14:32 PM
 #289

If bitcoin went mainstream, what would be the price of bitcoin?

If we assume, as I did in the OP, that mainstream is 10% of the population using it, let's divide 21,000,000 bitcoins by 700,000,000 persons (10% of the world population). The result is 0.03 btc to each person.

If we take from the 21,000,000 half that will always be hoarded or lost, we'll have 0.015 to each person. People will have to be able to buy all the things mainstream people buy with 0.015, including cars or even houses.

The price would be ridiculously high at that rate but nothing that hasn't already been speculated, let's hope for mass adoption.
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February 27, 2016, 03:49:05 AM
 #290

If bitcoin went mainstream, what would be the price of bitcoin?

If we assume, as I did in the OP, that mainstream is 10% of the population using it, let's divide 21,000,000 bitcoins by 700,000,000 persons (10% of the world population). The result is 0.03 btc to each person.

If we take from the 21,000,000 half that will always be hoarded or lost, we'll have 0.015 to each person. People will have to be able to buy all the things mainstream people buy with 0.015, including cars or even houses.

As you mentioned in the OP, there will be some form of fractional reserve banking, resulting in money supply multiplication. So each person might have more than 0.015. Moreover, people might store wealth in the form of real estate, stocks, bonds, etc. Not all billionaires have a billion dollars in the bank. People might just have enough bitcoins to conduct daily transactions.


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February 27, 2016, 04:40:50 AM
 #291

While bitcoin will eventually go mainstream, i think this will take years and years still considering the increase of countries banning btc.
Notice that marketing a Bitcoin related website targeting common people on facebook will just be a waste as it would take time to explain from what is bitcoin than to what the site offers. people only have less than a minute of focus viewing an ad.



Well i got no doubt it will go mainstream. There is just nothing like bitcoin nor will any other altcoin be able to compete with bitcoin.
So when we do, I would be the first one to tell my friends; "T told you so"

I also have no doubt that Bitcoin will become mainstream. I really want it to become mainstream so that I can sell my Bitcoin and become rich. Smiley
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February 27, 2016, 05:39:52 AM
 #292

While bitcoin will eventually go mainstream, i think this will take years and years still considering the increase of countries banning btc.
Notice that marketing a Bitcoin related website targeting common people on facebook will just be a waste as it would take time to explain from what is bitcoin than to what the site offers. people only have less than a minute of focus viewing an ad.



Well i got no doubt it will go mainstream. There is just nothing like bitcoin nor will any other altcoin be able to compete with bitcoin.
So when we do, I would be the first one to tell my friends; "T told you so"

I also have no doubt that Bitcoin will become mainstream. I really want it to become mainstream so that I can sell my Bitcoin and become rich. Smiley

that is not going to be true.
i mean if bitcoin goes mainstream it means you can use it as cash, then why would you want to sell it for cash then use cash to buy stuff! when you could use bitcoin directly.

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February 27, 2016, 09:51:58 AM
 #293

While bitcoin will eventually go mainstream, i think this will take years and years still considering the increase of countries banning btc.
Notice that marketing a Bitcoin related website targeting common people on facebook will just be a waste as it would take time to explain from what is bitcoin than to what the site offers. people only have less than a minute of focus viewing an ad.



Well i got no doubt it will go mainstream. There is just nothing like bitcoin nor will any other altcoin be able to compete with bitcoin.
So when we do, I would be the first one to tell my friends; "T told you so"

I also have no doubt that Bitcoin will become mainstream. I really want it to become mainstream so that I can sell my Bitcoin and become rich. Smiley

Yeah, if bitcoin gets on mainstream you can directly use bitcoin to purchase anything without any involvement of fiat, but that thing is hard to happen in future.

that is not going to be true.
i mean if bitcoin goes mainstream it means you can use it as cash, then why would you want to sell it for cash then use cash to buy stuff! when you could use bitcoin directly.

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February 27, 2016, 10:13:37 AM
 #294

If bitcoin ever goes mainstream it will surely ruin the lifes of all the ones invested in fiat (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=180798.0). Gresham's Law will destroy their fiat savings, since everyone will want the stronger bitcoin and will dump fiat, devaluating it. We'll see it happen first in the troubled economies, with high inflation and generalized suspicion on governmental money because of past problems.

And I have little doubt that bitcoin won't bring any equality, on the contrary. It will make us bitcoiners rich, but it will be at the expenses of fiat holders.

Because I doubt bitcoin will bring much prosperity, since it will establish a deflationary monetary system. But maybe it will be possible to minimize those deflationary effects:

a) Commercial banks will adopt a bitcoin fractional reserve system, lending bitcoins with only partial support on their holdings. That will allow an artificial (banking) expansion of the amount of bitcoins, thanks to the so-called banking money multiplier.
But since it will be hard to keep a trustworthy insurance of deposits (the government won't have enough bitcoins for that and can't create them), the system will be much more susceptible to runs.
And the interest will have to be high, because most people will prefer to have the bitcoins in their own wallets. So, forget about low interest rates. Well, high real interest rates (aggravated by potential deflation) can ruin any economy, since they thwart many productive investment based on credit.

b) It also might be created a bitcoin pattern, with governments printing money freely convertible in bitcoins. But I can see already the runs on the government on times of crises.

How will the central bank in depressions stimulate the economy?
It won't be possible to do any quantitative easing. Borrowing bitcoins to lend them at cheaper interest rates to the commercial banks won't be cheap.

How will the Government control massive tax evasion, especially if the anonymity of bitcoin improves?  
They will find a way, nothing has destroyed the State in more than 13 thousand years of hierarchical societies. Bitcoin won't be able to do it. It seems we will be subject to intense control of our use of the Internet in order to track our earnings and spending of bitcoins. Some we'll be able to evade it. But the majority won't.

Will the volatility of bitcoin ever end?
The increase of its users will keep bitcoin's price going up. However, because supply and demand is controlled by human perceptions and emotions, after a huge boom in price it will always come a bust. Every overshooting of the price will be followed by a general perception that the price increased too fast and, consequently, by a drop.
For volatility to end, it would be necessary a general adoption of bitcoin that would limit in percentual terms further increases of new users taking in account the already large numbers of users. Currently, since the number of users is relatively low, it's easy to see its numbers increase for more than 30% in a short period. But since the numbers of bitcoin are limited (and the current rate of increase is relatively small and it will be again limited in 2016), the ending of volatility would also require or a stagnant GDP or a fractional reserve system based on bitcoin that would allow its banking numbers to artificially increase side by side with GDP. That won't happen for years. Volatility is here to stay for long.

Will this scenario be the future?
It's impossible to say. But bitcoin seems to have already a too strong standing to fade away on it own.
Another better alt coin might be a stronger obstacle than fiat. But bitcoin can always adopt any improvements.

Can governments still destroy it?
An international coordinated effort against the main exchanges and sites could indeed hurt heavily bitcoin. Even our own wallets are susceptible to attacks by virus/worms (remember Stuxnet?) and the network can also be affected. Access to it can be blocked by ISPs at governmental command. Many could evade these blocks, but the major part of the bitcoiners would give up, taking in account also the risk of sanctions. That indeed would spook major investors.
This can still happen and it will happen on troubled economies. The outcome is anyone's guess, it would depend on governmental coordination and level of effort. Governments lost similar wars (drugs, alcohol, prostitution), but bitcoin is an easier target than these activities. It's not a surprise that, besides scams, governmental repression has been the main negative driver of price.

What would be the consequences of this massive adoption over the price?
I can't even imagine what would be the price of bitcoin. Forget about all the low previsions you read before.


But the genie is out of the bottle. There is nothing we can do, except tell about it.


added 14 March 2015:

What is bitcoin going mainstream?

One can use different criteria.

1) A percentage of the amount of the total expenses on one year. But even 1% would be huge and would imply a very high price for bitcoin. However, according to the mentioned Gresham's Law, bitcoin will be hoarded and only rarely spent. It's like gold. Gold is part of mainstream, but people don't exchange it much, they prefer to keep it. On the main functions of money, mean of exchange, unit of account and reserve of value, I think the last will be bitcoin's main function. It won't be used much as unite of value, because of its volatility (many places that accept bitcoin prefer to announce the prices in USDs). It won't be used a lot as mean of payment, because people will mostly hoard it.

2) Accessibility: the fact that anyone can easily buy, sell and pay with bitcoin. Clearly, this is decisive. If we could exchange and spend bitcoins on the majority of banks' ATMs and retailers, we could say bitcoin is mainstream. But imagine that even in these conditions bitcoin kept being scarcely used, with small demand.  It wouldn't be mainstream. Many physical businesses complain they never had customers paying with bitcoin. So, this is a necessary condition, but it isn't enough.

3) A percentage of people owning it. This seems to be a good criterion. But it isn't easy to establish a number: 10% seems enough, but not 1% or even 5%. 70 or even 350 million users on the all world would be great, but not enough for talking about mainstream. I guess only at 10% we would start to see unfold the problems above mentioned. But this kind of projections is hard to make.

Think about Paypal (I hate it, but let's use it as example). Is Paypal mainstream? I don't think so. It had a volume of transactions of only 180 billion on 2013, about 150 million active registered accounts and in many countries you can use it as mean of payment only on a few places. So, it reached about 2% of world population.

Bitcoin had about 23 billion USDs in trade volume alone during the last 12 months (see http://www.bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=6m, at current price) and maybe 1 or 2 million active users. It still has a long way to go.

Is Paypal mainstream? yes i said that paypal really mainstream,before bitcoin exist,the most popular and used is paypal,and now bitcoin must compete paypal to become more popular and better payment.

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February 27, 2016, 10:36:36 AM
 #295

If bitcoin ever goes mainstream it will surely ruin the lifes of all the ones invested in fiat (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=180798.0). Gresham's Law will destroy their fiat savings, since everyone will want the stronger bitcoin and will dump fiat, devaluating it. We'll see it happen first in the troubled economies, with high inflation and generalized suspicion on governmental money because of past problems.

And I have little doubt that bitcoin won't bring any equality, on the contrary. It will make us bitcoiners rich, but it will be at the expenses of fiat holders.

Because I doubt bitcoin will bring much prosperity, since it will establish a deflationary monetary system. But maybe it will be possible to minimize those deflationary effects:

a) Commercial banks will adopt a bitcoin fractional reserve system, lending bitcoins with only partial support on their holdings. That will allow an artificial (banking) expansion of the amount of bitcoins, thanks to the so-called banking money multiplier.
But since it will be hard to keep a trustworthy insurance of deposits (the government won't have enough bitcoins for that and can't create them), the system will be much more susceptible to runs.
And the interest will have to be high, because most people will prefer to have the bitcoins in their own wallets. So, forget about low interest rates. Well, high real interest rates (aggravated by potential deflation) can ruin any economy, since they thwart many productive investment based on credit.

b) It also might be created a bitcoin pattern, with governments printing money freely convertible in bitcoins. But I can see already the runs on the government on times of crises.

How will the central bank in depressions stimulate the economy?
It won't be possible to do any quantitative easing. Borrowing bitcoins to lend them at cheaper interest rates to the commercial banks won't be cheap.

How will the Government control massive tax evasion, especially if the anonymity of bitcoin improves?  
They will find a way, nothing has destroyed the State in more than 13 thousand years of hierarchical societies. Bitcoin won't be able to do it. It seems we will be subject to intense control of our use of the Internet in order to track our earnings and spending of bitcoins. Some we'll be able to evade it. But the majority won't.

Will the volatility of bitcoin ever end?
The increase of its users will keep bitcoin's price going up. However, because supply and demand is controlled by human perceptions and emotions, after a huge boom in price it will always come a bust. Every overshooting of the price will be followed by a general perception that the price increased too fast and, consequently, by a drop.
For volatility to end, it would be necessary a general adoption of bitcoin that would limit in percentual terms further increases of new users taking in account the already large numbers of users. Currently, since the number of users is relatively low, it's easy to see its numbers increase for more than 30% in a short period. But since the numbers of bitcoin are limited (and the current rate of increase is relatively small and it will be again limited in 2016), the ending of volatility would also require or a stagnant GDP or a fractional reserve system based on bitcoin that would allow its banking numbers to artificially increase side by side with GDP. That won't happen for years. Volatility is here to stay for long.

Will this scenario be the future?
It's impossible to say. But bitcoin seems to have already a too strong standing to fade away on it own.
Another better alt coin might be a stronger obstacle than fiat. But bitcoin can always adopt any improvements.

Can governments still destroy it?
An international coordinated effort against the main exchanges and sites could indeed hurt heavily bitcoin. Even our own wallets are susceptible to attacks by virus/worms (remember Stuxnet?) and the network can also be affected. Access to it can be blocked by ISPs at governmental command. Many could evade these blocks, but the major part of the bitcoiners would give up, taking in account also the risk of sanctions. That indeed would spook major investors.
This can still happen and it will happen on troubled economies. The outcome is anyone's guess, it would depend on governmental coordination and level of effort. Governments lost similar wars (drugs, alcohol, prostitution), but bitcoin is an easier target than these activities. It's not a surprise that, besides scams, governmental repression has been the main negative driver of price.

What would be the consequences of this massive adoption over the price?
I can't even imagine what would be the price of bitcoin. Forget about all the low previsions you read before.


But the genie is out of the bottle. There is nothing we can do, except tell about it.


added 14 March 2015:

What is bitcoin going mainstream?

One can use different criteria.

1) A percentage of the amount of the total expenses on one year. But even 1% would be huge and would imply a very high price for bitcoin. However, according to the mentioned Gresham's Law, bitcoin will be hoarded and only rarely spent. It's like gold. Gold is part of mainstream, but people don't exchange it much, they prefer to keep it. On the main functions of money, mean of exchange, unit of account and reserve of value, I think the last will be bitcoin's main function. It won't be used much as unite of value, because of its volatility (many places that accept bitcoin prefer to announce the prices in USDs). It won't be used a lot as mean of payment, because people will mostly hoard it.

2) Accessibility: the fact that anyone can easily buy, sell and pay with bitcoin. Clearly, this is decisive. If we could exchange and spend bitcoins on the majority of banks' ATMs and retailers, we could say bitcoin is mainstream. But imagine that even in these conditions bitcoin kept being scarcely used, with small demand.  It wouldn't be mainstream. Many physical businesses complain they never had customers paying with bitcoin. So, this is a necessary condition, but it isn't enough.

3) A percentage of people owning it. This seems to be a good criterion. But it isn't easy to establish a number: 10% seems enough, but not 1% or even 5%. 70 or even 350 million users on the all world would be great, but not enough for talking about mainstream. I guess only at 10% we would start to see unfold the problems above mentioned. But this kind of projections is hard to make.

Think about Paypal (I hate it, but let's use it as example). Is Paypal mainstream? I don't think so. It had a volume of transactions of only 180 billion on 2013, about 150 million active registered accounts and in many countries you can use it as mean of payment only on a few places. So, it reached about 2% of world population.

Bitcoin had about 23 billion USDs in trade volume alone during the last 12 months (see http://www.bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=6m, at current price) and maybe 1 or 2 million active users. It still has a long way to go.

Is Paypal mainstream? yes i said that paypal really mainstream,before bitcoin exist,the most popular and used is paypal,and now bitcoin must compete paypal to become more popular and better payment.

Yeah, paypal is more popular then bitcoin at a moment, as almost all sites accepts paypal, bitcoin can give a tough competition in near future when we see more sites accepting bitcoins.
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February 27, 2016, 10:37:15 AM
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I don't foresee banks every adopting Bitcoin with any serious degree while they are still heavily reliant on the government. Mainstream adoption of Bitcoin would mean more people using it as an actual currency, which I believe we can all agree is a positive thing.
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February 27, 2016, 03:20:35 PM
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The more the merrier.

For me bitcoin doesn't have to succeed, it already did. The people made bitcoin and the banks got scared big time.

Now it is for them introducing a new scheme Wink

I do not think banks should be scared of bitcoin. This is new business opportunity for them. They can continue banking with bitccoin besides fiat.
nah quite agree,as far as i know bitcoiners need bank account when they'd exchanging their bitcoin to dollars and saving it in their bank account so there's no way bitcoin could make bank scared

This is not the case if you make money and get paid directly in Bitcoin. You can get a business started and accept Bitcoin directly, accept the Bitcoin in your address and not through a layer like Bitpay.. this way no bank will ever know you are working and making money in Bitcoin form. If everyone did this there would be no banks anymore.
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February 27, 2016, 03:33:45 PM
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The more the merrier.

For me bitcoin doesn't have to succeed, it already did. The people made bitcoin and the banks got scared big time.

Now it is for them introducing a new scheme Wink

I do not think banks should be scared of bitcoin. This is new business opportunity for them. They can continue banking with bitccoin besides fiat.
nah quite agree,as far as i know bitcoiners need bank account when they'd exchanging their bitcoin to dollars and saving it in their bank account so there's no way bitcoin could make bank scared

This is not the case if you make money and get paid directly in Bitcoin. You can get a business started and accept Bitcoin directly, accept the Bitcoin in your address and not through a layer like Bitpay.. this way no bank will ever know you are working and making money in Bitcoin form. If everyone did this there would be no banks anymore.

In our country, you need banks and other financial institutions to be the gateway in every btc->local currency and vice versa so the banks earn as well.

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February 27, 2016, 03:42:37 PM
 #299

The more the merrier.

For me bitcoin doesn't have to succeed, it already did. The people made bitcoin and the banks got scared big time.

Now it is for them introducing a new scheme Wink

I do not think banks should be scared of bitcoin. This is new business opportunity for them. They can continue banking with bitccoin besides fiat.
nah quite agree,as far as i know bitcoiners need bank account when they'd exchanging their bitcoin to dollars and saving it in their bank account so there's no way bitcoin could make bank scared

This is not the case if you make money and get paid directly in Bitcoin. You can get a business started and accept Bitcoin directly, accept the Bitcoin in your address and not through a layer like Bitpay.. this way no bank will ever know you are working and making money in Bitcoin form. If everyone did this there would be no banks anymore.

In our country, you need banks and other financial institutions to be the gateway in every btc->local currency and vice versa so the banks earn as well.

but if bitcoin reaches the point that is considered and used as money, then you won't need to exchange it to fiat anymore because you use bitcoin directly to buy stuff.

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February 27, 2016, 03:49:51 PM
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if bitcoin become something common, I think the price will also decrease, because if bitcoin already in the know the people, it will spread very much bitcoin and very easy to get so the price will come in lower  Sad
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