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Author Topic: How do we prevent money laundering and assasinations?  (Read 16039 times)
em3rgentOrdr
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April 25, 2011, 04:59:48 PM
 #61

If I saw an assassination market using Bitcoin, I think I'd contribute to that effort myself, though I know saying that won't win me any points here. Smiley

EDIT:  Just to be clear, I mean I'd contribute to the DOS effort against such a thing, not to the assassination market!
You get points from me.  There are a lot of extreme ideologies thrown around on the internet without regard to their practical application.  I'd sink a good ship to prevent it from being used for evil any day, and I think anyone who supports the freedom for assassination markets to exist "on principle" should be made to be present during the event--after spending an hour talking with the person before and then having to sit alone with them in a room after.  Then they have to explain their principles to the person's family.  And raise their kids.

What if the CIA put hit out on Ghaddafi in bitcoins?

Where would that leave all you holier than thous?

How did they pay to have Saddsam Hussein offed anyway, your taxes, in USD to hired guns most likely. FFS how sanctimonious are you going to get on us.

That's not a bad idea.  Gaddafi or Hussein would have been taken out much more quickly and easier without the disastrous human and financial damage of statist war.  Like all tools and technological innovations, assassination markets can be used for good and evil.  I think we must must accept their inevitability thanks to tools like bitcoin, and focus on how to handle, manage, and in other ways deal with assassination markets rather than foolishly attempt to prevent them entirely.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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April 25, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
 #62

I recommend to read the original Jim Bell's essay: http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/jimbellap.htm

As he shows, assassination market will make wars impossible (because any government official, who wants to wage a war, will get a bounty for his head). And it will probably make impossible to exist for government, that extort taxes from it's subjects by force (because they will get a bounty for their heads too). Only governments, that provide their services on voluntary contracts will be able to evade such system.
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April 25, 2011, 06:07:23 PM
 #63

Money can absolutely be used for crime, too, despite some notes I've seen in these forums to the contrary.  Someone said, the other day, something like, "Guns and violence hurt people; money doesn't."  What about the money used to bribe policemen to look the other way when there are guns and violence applied against innocents?

Let's clear something up. People hurt people. It's downright silly to demonize a tool. Pencils don't make spelling errors. Guns don't shoot people. And money doesn't sell drugs. People do all of these things. If you take the tools away from the bad, you take the tools away from the good as well. Shall we destroy the internet because some use it for child pornography? Ban hard drives because such files can be stored there? No, absolutely not. It would be ridiculous.

It's absurd seeing people blaming tools for the actions of people. I promise you this, take away the tool that you pose as evil, and the evil person will find another way to commit his atrocities.
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April 25, 2011, 06:16:22 PM
 #64

I vote for getting business that trade narcotics off the merchant list.

We do not want to promote that kind of thing on the official forum. Those who absolutely want to seek out that stuff, will be able to find it anyway.

Illegal goods are not allowed on the official forum. bitcoin.it is not official.

+1
Thanks and lets continue to hold a strong position against illegal things here.

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Cryptoman
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April 25, 2011, 06:29:41 PM
 #65

Let's clear something up. People hurt people. It's downright silly to demonize a tool. Pencils don't make spelling errors. Guns don't shoot people. And money doesn't sell drugs. People do all of these things. If you take the tools away from the bad, you take the tools away from the good as well. Shall we destroy the internet because some use it for child pornography? Ban hard drives because such files can be stored there? No, absolutely not. It would be ridiculous.

It's absurd seeing people blaming tools for the actions of people. I promise you this, take away the tool that you pose as evil, and the evil person will find another way to commit his atrocities.

Bravo.  Well put.  It's clear that powerful, decentralized, technological tools that nobody can control are going to be a fact of life in our future.  We need to learn to deal with it as a society.

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April 25, 2011, 06:30:56 PM
 #66

Money can absolutely be used for crime, too, despite some notes I've seen in these forums to the contrary.  Someone said, the other day, something like, "Guns and violence hurt people; money doesn't."  What about the money used to bribe policemen to look the other way when there are guns and violence applied against innocents?

Let's clear something up. People hurt people. It's downright silly to demonize a tool. Pencils don't make spelling errors. Guns don't shoot people. And money doesn't sell drugs. People do all of these things. If you take the tools away from the bad, you take the tools away from the good as well. Shall we destroy the internet because some use it for child pornography? Ban hard drives because such files can be stored there? No, absolutely not. It would be ridiculous.

It's absurd seeing people blaming tools for the actions of people. I promise you this, take away the tool that you pose as evil, and the evil person will find another way to commit his atrocities.

It's absurd to absolve the corrupting systems of money, government and religion of the actions people make while being forced to operate within their confines.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
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April 25, 2011, 06:44:21 PM
 #67

Why don't people not interested into cypherdoc's call for help discuss their egoistic views somewhere else so that we can get back to the original thread motive?

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rezin777
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April 25, 2011, 07:15:26 PM
 #68

It's absurd to absolve the corrupting systems of money, government and religion of the actions people make while being forced to operate within their confines.

Wrong. You blame the individual, not the tool. You could not pay me enough money, give me enough power over others, or threaten me with the wrath of any god to convince me to commit murder, theft, or any other immoral act against my fellow man. If I can rise above the confines of these systems, anyone can.

Blaming the tool shifts the focus from the real actors, and practically absolves them of their misdeeds.

"Yes, he committed atrocities, but he did it in the name of his god, he can't be held fully accountable."

"Ahh, but he was poor, and offered such a large sum, who wouldn't have done the same in his place?"

"Of course he voted to go to war, he would have been ostracized by his own party had he not."

Baloney.

em3rgentOrdr
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April 25, 2011, 07:18:21 PM
 #69

It's absurd to absolve the corrupting systems of money, government and religion of the actions people make while being forced to operate within their confines.

Wrong. You blame the individual, not the tool. You could not pay me enough money, give me enough power over others, or threaten me with the wrath of any god to convince me to commit murder, theft, or any other immoral act against my fellow man. If I can rise above the confines of these systems, anyone can.

Blaming the tool takes shifts the focus from the real actors, and practically absolves them of their misdeeds.

"Yes, he committed atrocities, but he did it in the name of his god, he can't be held fully accountable."

"Ahh, but he was poor, and offered such a large sum, who wouldn't have done the same in his place?"

"Of course he voted to go to war, he would have been ostracized by his own party had he not."

Baloney.



+1

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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April 25, 2011, 08:08:45 PM
 #70

Why don't people not interested into cypherdoc's call for help discuss their egoistic views somewhere else so that we can get back to the original thread motive?

Fortunately, those that create threads do not have absolute control over them, and cannot exile certain types of discussion to another thread. Though, I think that would be an interesting message board, if the thread creator had moderator rights in that thread...
em3rgentOrdr
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April 25, 2011, 09:54:26 PM
 #71

Why don't people not interested into cypherdoc's call for help discuss their egoistic views somewhere else so that we can get back to the original thread motive?

Fortunately, those that create threads do not have absolute control over them, and cannot exile certain types of discussion to another thread. Though, I think that would be an interesting message board, if the thread creator had moderator rights in that thread...

+1

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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April 25, 2011, 09:57:49 PM
 #72

It's absurd to absolve the corrupting systems of money, government and religion of the actions people make while being forced to operate within their confines.

Wrong. You blame the individual, not the tool. You could not pay me enough money, give me enough power over others, or threaten me with the wrath of any god to convince me to commit murder, theft, or any other immoral act against my fellow man. If I can rise above the confines of these systems, anyone can.

Blaming the tool takes shifts the focus from the real actors, and practically absolves them of their misdeeds.

"Yes, he committed atrocities, but he did it in the name of his god, he can't be held fully accountable."

"Ahh, but he was poor, and offered such a large sum, who wouldn't have done the same in his place?"

"Of course he voted to go to war, he would have been ostracized by his own party had he not."

Baloney.



Amen to that.


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 26, 2011, 08:25:57 PM
 #73

 If I saw an assassination market using Bitcoin, I think I'd contribute to that effort myself, though I know saying that won't win me any points here. Smiley

EDIT:  Just to be clear, I mean I'd contribute to the DOS effort against such a thing, not to the assassination market!
You get points from me.  There are a lot of extreme ideologies thrown around on the internet without regard to their practical application.  I'd sink a good ship to prevent it from being used for evil any day, and I think anyone who supports the freedom for assassination markets to exist "on principle" should be made to be present during the event--after spending an hour talking with the person before and then having to sit alone with them in a room after.  Then they have to explain their principles to the person's family.  And raise their kids.

What if the CIA put hit out on Ghaddafi in bitcoins?

Where would that leave all you holier than thous?

How did they pay to have Saddsam Hussein offed anyway, your taxes, in USD to hired guns most likely. FFS how sanctimonious are you going to get on us.
Have you ever seen a person die?  Like, not in a video game or a movie?  The internet tends to make a lot of people pretend they know what they're talking about.  Tools are never bad, but there can be good reasons to scuttle a good tool--it's a simple cost-benefit analysis on the available data.  If the available data for any good tool showed it enabled more harm than good, the only rational response is that the tool isn't worth it.  Nuclear bombs are just tools too, but you're still a moron if you want to live in a version of today where everyone is handed one at birth.

If you found my post helpful, feel free to send a small tip to 1QGukeKbBQbXHtV6LgkQa977LJ3YHXXW8B
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em3rgentOrdr
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April 26, 2011, 08:59:14 PM
 #74

 If I saw an assassination market using Bitcoin, I think I'd contribute to that effort myself, though I know saying that won't win me any points here. Smiley

EDIT:  Just to be clear, I mean I'd contribute to the DOS effort against such a thing, not to the assassination market!
You get points from me.  There are a lot of extreme ideologies thrown around on the internet without regard to their practical application.  I'd sink a good ship to prevent it from being used for evil any day, and I think anyone who supports the freedom for assassination markets to exist "on principle" should be made to be present during the event--after spending an hour talking with the person before and then having to sit alone with them in a room after.  Then they have to explain their principles to the person's family.  And raise their kids.

What if the CIA put hit out on Ghaddafi in bitcoins?

Where would that leave all you holier than thous?

How did they pay to have Saddsam Hussein offed anyway, your taxes, in USD to hired guns most likely. FFS how sanctimonious are you going to get on us.
Have you ever seen a person die?  Like, not in a video game or a movie?  The internet tends to make a lot of people pretend they know what they're talking about.  Tools are never bad, but there can be good reasons to scuttle a good tool--it's a simple cost-benefit analysis on the available data.  If the available data for any good tool showed it enabled more harm than good, the only rational response is that the tool isn't worth it.  Nuclear bombs are just tools too, but you're still a moron if you want to live in a version of today where everyone is handed one at birth.

since bitcoin enables money laundering and asaasination markets and tax evasion and promotes anarchism, then why do you support it? Im curious.  You have great tools with democratic-state-regulated currencies already that dont have these issues as much, right?

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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April 26, 2011, 09:20:37 PM
 #75

since bitcoin enables money laundering and asaasination markets and tax evasion and promotes anarchism, then why do you support it? Im curious.  You have great tools with democratic-state-regulated currencies already that dont have these issues as much, right?
The available data leads me to believe that BitCoin enables more good than bad.  Neither BitCoin nor cash "promote anarchism"--at best any implications for a political ideology like anarchism are peripheral to their broader significance.

Try to step back for a moment.  BitCoin is technologically superior to and more efficient than any existing currency or payment provider.  Particularly exciting are its applications in the developing world, in enabling microtransactions, in creating the possibility for digital contracts, and in facilitating the emergence of a tipping economy.  It seems very narrowminded to me to think that BitCoin's primary relevance is political.  I'm sure there were people who thought the same of the internet, and while they were right that the internet has political consequences, it's had kind of a lot of other ones as well.

And most importantly, I'm not naive.  BitCoin is ultimately mathematics--there are plenty of drug lords and covert organisations that have the finances to run their own BitCoin-like network regardless of whether BitCoin itself succeeds or fails.  I cannot control what they do--but I can help to make BitCoin an effective counterpart to that possibility.  So that's what I try and do--think ahead, and act appropriately.

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April 26, 2011, 10:20:18 PM
 #76

I agree with cypherdoc that we need to have a more responsible attitude toward how we react to the use of bitcoins in illicit activities.

I do understand that it is impossible for us to prevent illegal actions from being performed with bitcoins, any more than we could prevent them from being performed with hard cash.  However, that does not mean that this community should actively promote it.

When growing a new currency, public perception is everything.  Bitcoin needs a squeaky clean image if it is ever going to be accepted by the mainstream public.  And yet, we have a section promoting businesses selling Psychotropic Drugs on the bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade).  I understand that these drugs are actually legal in some countries.  But, that's not going to matter to most businesses that are investigating whether they should accept bitcoins from their customers.  Most will take one look at that wiki page, see that there are questionable businesses being promoted there, and immediately conclude that they do not want to associate their business name in any way with that kind of activity.  I would guess that there have been far more businesses dissuaded from joining the bitcoin community due to those advertisements than have been attracted because of it.

It is not a matter of freedom of speech.  Illicit businesses are free to advertise as they want.  But, as a community, that does not mean we have to allow them to do it here.  This is a matter of practical reality.  If we fail to police ourselves, the governments of the world will be more than eager to step in and do it for us.  They won't be able to shut down the bitcoin network in its entirety, due to its distributed nature.  But, they sure as heck can take it away from me as well as many others on this forum.




/thread

Stop making asinine arguments and whining that USD does it too!!!  Roll Eyes
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April 26, 2011, 11:15:09 PM
 #77

Quote
Have you ever seen a person die?  Like, not in a video game or a movie?  The internet tends to make a lot of people pretend they know what they're talking about.

Not that it is any of your business or relevant to the topic, but yes I have. Since you are asking have you?

Basically, blaming the type of money that people are using for crimes is infantile and indefensible as a logical argument. Something only a brain well-pickled and infused with statist tosh could come up with ... but then again you think you know what you are talking about so carry on ... it must be the internet doing that to you.

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April 27, 2011, 12:00:54 AM
 #78

Kinda off-topic, but would any of you know of a site where people can vote for, and against, the assasination of individuals; just dealing with votes, no money? Even though it probably wouldn't lead to anything i guess voting there would still feel a little more productive than yelling at the TV during the news....

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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April 27, 2011, 12:09:30 AM
 #79

Kinda off-topic, but would any of you know of a site where people can vote for, and against, the assasination of individuals; just dealing with votes, no money? Even though it probably wouldn't lead to anything i guess voting there would still feel a little more productive than yelling at the TV during the news....

You could start such a site on Tor, but this would likely be illegal in many juristictions.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 27, 2011, 12:14:30 AM
 #80

Saying you want someone dead publicly is against the law? Isn't it covered by freedom of speech?

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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