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Author Topic: How do we prevent money laundering and assasinations?  (Read 16040 times)
cypherdoc
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April 24, 2011, 04:12:30 AM
 #1

as a non hacker investor in BTC, i am tired of hearing laughing and joking about how drug dealers and gangs will most definitely use BTC to move money around the world to facilitate their illegal activities.  Hive 45 had 2 jokers laughing and joking about using BTC for assasinations.  i'm sorry, civilized ppl just don't talk like that.  if this becomes the case, BTC may be doomed in the long run to function as a new currency to replace the USD which is what i presume most of the ppl on this forum want.  i know i sure do and now i have an invested interest in making this so.  i would like to use this thread to develop ideas about how this activity might be prevented.  i don't want to hear comments about how it is inevitable, can't stop it, its gonna happen no matter what type comments that are often accompanied by a veneer of glee.  this is serious business; so i'd like to hear productive ideas about how this can be accomplished.  if everyone believes its impossible then fine, i get an empty thread.
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Garrett Burgwardt
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April 24, 2011, 04:21:02 AM
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It's as possible to prevent money laundering and illegal trade with bitcoins as it is to prevent it with regular cash. This isn't a problem for bitcoin but rather a problem for law enforcement, just moved to a new domain.
mcdett
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April 24, 2011, 04:24:33 AM
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people use usd all the time for drugs and on a more limited extent killings.

crimes will always be committed in return for value (a promise), and whatever delivers that value most efficiently will be used.  Today they use usd.

because people commit crimes that involve a transaction of value doesn't mean that the medium used for the transaction is at fault.

from a large govt perspective they will need insight (to a certain extent) into the persons behind large transactions, or they will kill the medium.  btc should be prepared to some extent for this.
rezin777
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April 24, 2011, 04:26:00 AM
 #4

Decriminalize victimless crime. Eliminate positions of power without production.

Drug raid cash.

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April 24, 2011, 05:04:56 AM
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http://www.snopes.com/business/money/cocaine.asp

Jim Hyslop
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April 24, 2011, 05:27:43 AM
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Decriminalize victimless crime. Eliminate positions of power without production.

Drug raid cash.


What's the emoticon for "jaw dropped to floor"?

I'm sure nobody would notice if one of those small bundles disappeared, would they?

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cypherdoc
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April 24, 2011, 05:30:50 AM
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unfortunately, the US gov't will set a higher std for BTC and laundering vs the USD.  the will use the anonymity argument against BTC while the real reason will be to protect the USD franchise.
John Kirk
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April 24, 2011, 05:54:22 AM
 #8

I agree with cypherdoc that we need to have a more responsible attitude toward how we react to the use of bitcoins in illicit activities.

I do understand that it is impossible for us to prevent illegal actions from being performed with bitcoins, any more than we could prevent them from being performed with hard cash.  However, that does not mean that this community should actively promote it.

When growing a new currency, public perception is everything.  Bitcoin needs a squeaky clean image if it is ever going to be accepted by the mainstream public.  And yet, we have a section promoting businesses selling Psychotropic Drugs on the bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade).  I understand that these drugs are actually legal in some countries.  But, that's not going to matter to most businesses that are investigating whether they should accept bitcoins from their customers.  Most will take one look at that wiki page, see that there are questionable businesses being promoted there, and immediately conclude that they do not want to associate their business name in any way with that kind of activity.  I would guess that there have been far more businesses dissuaded from joining the bitcoin community due to those advertisements than have been attracted because of it.

It is not a matter of freedom of speech.  Illicit businesses are free to advertise as they want.  But, as a community, that does not mean we have to allow them to do it here.  This is a matter of practical reality.  If we fail to police ourselves, the governments of the world will be more than eager to step in and do it for us.  They won't be able to shut down the bitcoin network in its entirety, due to its distributed nature.  But, they sure as heck can take it away from me as well as many others on this forum.

kiba
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April 24, 2011, 05:57:27 AM
 #9

For some reason, bitcoiners here are more open about such products even though it hurts public perception.

Human beings, as what they are, not very good at thinking hard about things.

marcus_of_augustus
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April 24, 2011, 06:20:19 AM
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The vast majority of criminal activity is conducted in USD cash ... how about you go whale on the Fed. Res. about how they are facilitating crime and USD cash cshould be banned ... no didn't think so,


Thinking that it is the job of money to stop crime is so much facist fucked up thinking it is beyond belief ... it is not the job of money to stop crime, you have been brainwashed by the statists.

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April 24, 2011, 07:30:20 AM
 #11

unfortunately, the US gov't will set a higher std for BTC and laundering vs the USD.  the will use the anonymity argument against BTC while the real reason will be to protect the USD franchise.

Bitcoin will be taken up by the markets that get the most benefit from it.  Markets that have high overheads using fiat money will have a much larger impulse to move to Bitcoin than those that operate relativity freely.

Money Laundering, Drug Trade, Assassinations, Tax Avoidance, Internet Payments. All have a high overhead, these will be types of things that move to Bitcoin with the most vigour.  Naturally.

Decriminalize victimless crime. Eliminate positions of power without production.

Correct, the reason that Bitcoin will be used by these things  is because there is a market for it.  Without prohibition (except Assassination), the market doesn't need to be opaque.

Without prohibition, there wouldn't be much of a primed market for Bitcoin, It would be much harder to have made it popular.

In many ways the Cat is out of the bag; the horse has bolted.

Welcome to the wild west, didn't the 'wild west' get it's name from being Wild?

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pusle
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April 24, 2011, 09:18:14 AM
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The war on drugs has failed miserably.
I can't see this getting any worse when switching from a centralized viritual currency (USD) to a distributed p2p version.

The crimes take place in the physical world anyway, and that is where law enforcement has to be.
Standard law enforcement methods are not hampered by bitcoin.
If you order drugs there is a box at the postal office getting picked up.
If there is a hit , there is a person with a gun and a person with a motive.
If somebody buys plutonium there is a supplier, transport and lots of people involved.

What if you took away all the crimes directly or indirectly connected to drugs?  I think the money flow associated with crimes would plummet.
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April 24, 2011, 09:29:58 AM
 #13


 
What if you took away all the crimes directly or indirectly connected to drugs?  I think the money flow associated with crimes would plummet.


Maybe that's how the gov will crush Bitcoin: Legalize drugs.


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deadlizard
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April 24, 2011, 09:44:19 AM
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The war on drugs has failed miserably.

Someone hasn't been paying attention.
Just look at how many jobs have been created in law enforcement and private prisons.
look at that pile of cash that was confiscated. They don't burn it, it goes into the treasury as 100% profit.
If the state wasn't getting the result that it wanted it would cut the program faster than you could blink.
The war on drugs has been an astounding success.  Roll Eyes

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protagonist
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April 24, 2011, 09:54:20 AM
 #15

That Bitcoins, as a decentralized currency, can be useful for criminal activities is obvious to anyone with half a brain. Trying to whitewash that is futile, and in doing so you may end up looking like you're trying to cover things up.

If you feel there's an image problem getting in the way of what you feel Bitcoin should achieve, focus on getting goods and services offered that are more palatable to you.

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Timo Y
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April 24, 2011, 10:22:45 AM
 #16

Any new technology can be used for both good and bad things.  There is nothing unique to Bitcoin about this.

Inventors and champions of new technology cannot be held personally responsible for what people choose to do with that technology.

If they were, it would be a return to the middle ages where technological development ground to a halt.

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Ulysses
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April 24, 2011, 10:35:29 AM
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How long before we will see this Jim Bell's idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_market implemented with bitcoins? Smiley
FreeMoney
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April 24, 2011, 10:53:59 AM
 #18

How long before we will see this Jim Bell's idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_market implemented with bitcoins? Smiley

Damn, if we had a prediction market we would know. I wonder when we'll have a predication market?

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April 24, 2011, 12:07:37 PM
 #19

unfortunately, the US gov't will set a higher std for BTC and laundering vs the USD.  the will use the anonymity argument against BTC while the real reason will be to protect the USD franchise.

I agree with you. Goverments might think that bitcoins are a threat for their currencie and hence a higher std is needed.

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April 24, 2011, 12:15:40 PM
 #20

i would like to use this thread to develop ideas about how this activity might be prevented.  i don't want to hear comments about how it is inevitable, can't stop it, its gonna happen no matter what type comments that are often accompanied by a veneer of glee.  this is serious business and i have BTC to protect; so i'd like to hear productive ideas about how this can be accomplished. 

Forum members, it would be helpful to get back to cypherdoc's original intent of this thread (see above and again here:)
so i'd like to hear productive ideas about how this can be accomplished.

Here are my ideas to start with:
(1) Get all illegal content off this forum. This is already in progress, at least for (i) stuff that is illegal everywhere, and (ii) stuff that is illegal in most jurisdictions. People who want to talk about those things can do this somwhwere else, outside of bitcoin.org

(2) A step further would be to publically announce on the homepage of bitcoin.org that bitoins have been created as innovation in the payment / store of value area and that the owners of bitcon.org are against illegal abuse. Of course, as with cash, some individuals may use bitcoins for other things, but bitcoin.org does not endorse this in any way and even undertakes all possible steps to avoid this on this website

(3) Continue driving bitcoin's legal use for low fee payments, legitimate businesses, start-ups, investments, etc.

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Always do your own due diligence & consult your financial advisor. Never invest unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

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