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Author Topic: NXT/NEM or Monero/Bytecoin?  (Read 4879 times)
bitwho
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July 18, 2014, 07:48:50 AM
 #81

Why is 3000 or 5000 or even 10000 stakeholder of NEM better than 70 in NXT. Nothing is fair when we talking about money. Money need to be transparent not fair. Is Bitcoin unfair because of his creator? Satoshi fortune is around 1M Bitcoins, maybe more.

its simple statistics. why do they use the word "fair distribution" "decentralized" ?

simply put.

if 5000 people took part and they are all unique shares (hence fair distributed). let say 10,000 coin for each.

even if no one else is interested into buying once it hits and exchange there is a 50-50 chance that it will be half sell and half hold between current share holders.  
assuming half selling then its 25 000 000 coins sold.
half holding mean that there is 2500 shareholders who will probably buy all this 25,000,000 coins back
hence leaving 50,000,000 coin between 2500 people. or considering a mass panic sells then 50 mill coin between 1200 people who held their coins and bought more.

doing it the other way with only 70 people. at 50 mill coins thats ~714000 coins per person.
very low number to think it will be 50-50 sell or hold. it wont mater. (hence bad distributed)
even if 10 people sell , that is massive sell order. leaving 60 people hoarding and 10 out
as a buyer will you jump and buy this coin once its out in the exchange?
its a bad distribution model.
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July 18, 2014, 07:52:21 AM
 #82

Why is 3000 or 5000 or even 10000 stakeholder of NEM better than 70 in NXT. Nothing is fair when we talking about money. Money need to be transparent not fair. Is Bitcoin unfair because of his creator? Satoshi fortune is around 1M Bitcoins, maybe more.

its simple statistics. why do they use the word "fair distribution" "decentralized" ?

simply put.

if 5000 people took part and they are all unique shares (hence fair distributed). let say 10,000 coin for each.

even if no one else is interested into buying once it hits and exchange there is a 50-50 chance that it will be half sell and half hold between current share holders. 
assuming half selling then its 25 000 000 coins sold.
half holding mean that there is 2500 shareholders who will probably buy all this 25,000,000 coins back
hence leaving 50,000,000 coin between 2500 people. or considering a mass panic sells then 50 mill coin between 1200 people who held their coins and bought more.

doing it the other way with only 70 people. at 50 mill coins thats ~714000 coins per person.
very low number to think it will be 50-50 sell or hold. it wont mater. (hence bad distributed)
even if 10 people sell , that is massive sell order. leaving 60 people hoarding and 10 out
as a buyer will you jump and but this coin once its out in the exchange?
its a bad distribution model.


I don't understand the point in your hypothetical ramble.

NEM is already being traded on the asset exchange and it hasn't been dumped to death, neither has NXT.  There's a difference between handing out coins to investors / pseudo-investors and then giving something out to everybody (Aurora).

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
devphp
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July 18, 2014, 07:54:40 AM
 #83

I just had a customer ask me about cryptos, he can't mine anything either, naturally he would like to invest into Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is everywhere, but I also introduced him to PoS, NXT. He will have to buy with cash, Bitcoin or not, what does it matter to him, if it's PoW or PoS, he will look at other criteria. Right now he'll probably be into Bitcoin mostly, because it's been around longer, but you get the idea, since he can't mine PoW, he'll eventually be interested in PoS coins too, because any coin requires that he pays cash to get it and he would like to diversify risks. There are many people like him, who just come to the crypto market and can't mine anything.

... just to continue, and because he can't mine anything, distribution of any coin (oh, Bitcoin is now $600 but it was only pennies two years ago and someone got a lot of them!) will look unfair to him. Or not, if he understands (and he does), that fairness is a silly concept. There is nothing fair in life, it would be very strange if it was different in crypto currencies.
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July 18, 2014, 07:55:25 AM
 #84

they're still susceptable by flat out purchasing by a centralized banking system.

Not really, before they purchase anything close to 50% of the PoS currency, the price will shoot through the roof and this PoS currency becomes world reserve currency at that point. Unlike PoW currency, where they can buy enough hardware for much less money and destroy the PoW currency or flat out ban mining/force it to regulation since it's all becoming centralized mining now in 2-3 places.

IMO this post explains it all excellently. Go read Szalasz blog (he is long standing nxt veteran and nxt champion) where founders explain how they released only 25% of coins and still control 75% (even if its not only bcnext but if its really 2-3 his friends involved, we are looking at 3-4 closely connected people).

So think about its security. for them to control over 50% of network they dont have to buy anything, they already control it. So its not problem of only initial distribution but of current one as well and its closely connected to how secure it is. Not to mention that almost all fees paid in nxt go directly to them too.

And nxt shouldnt be called first crypto 2.0, it copied everything from ripple that was made 2 years before it (and its still not even close to what ripple can do, so if ripple set standards for crypto 2.0 other shitclones dont even come close yet).

Also, look at what happened to ripple when 1 founder decided to sell his stash of only 9% of currency. In nxt case there is sword of demaclos in form of 75% of currency or 8X bigger issue.

We will see if NEM POI manages to solve risk associated with pos currencies especially ones like in case of nxt where 2-3 friends control almost entire network and can do literally anything they want with it.

Its an equivalent of qhash owning 75% of bitcoin mining, but even there its difference because qhash is consisted of many miners that they can easily exclude from network while in nxt case you cant exclude 2-3 friends.
 
bitwho
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July 18, 2014, 07:58:28 AM
 #85

Why is 3000 or 5000 or even 10000 stakeholder of NEM better than 70 in NXT. Nothing is fair when we talking about money. Money need to be transparent not fair. Is Bitcoin unfair because of his creator? Satoshi fortune is around 1M Bitcoins, maybe more.

its simple statistics. why do they use the word "fair distribution" "decentralized" ?

simply put.

if 5000 people took part and they are all unique shares (hence fair distributed). let say 10,000 coin for each.

even if no one else is interested into buying once it hits and exchange there is a 50-50 chance that it will be half sell and half hold between current share holders. 
assuming half selling then its 25 000 000 coins sold.
half holding mean that there is 2500 shareholders who will probably buy all this 25,000,000 coins back
hence leaving 50,000,000 coin between 2500 people. or considering a mass panic sells then 50 mill coin between 1200 people who held their coins and bought more.

doing it the other way with only 70 people. at 50 mill coins thats ~714000 coins per person.
very low number to think it will be 50-50 sell or hold. it wont mater. (hence bad distributed)
even if 10 people sell , that is massive sell order. leaving 60 people hoarding and 10 out
as a buyer will you jump and but this coin once its out in the exchange?
its a bad distribution model.


I don't understand the point in your hypothetical ramble.

NEM is already being traded on the asset exchange and it hasn't been dumped to death, neither has NXT.  There's a difference between handing out coins to investors / pseudo-investors and then giving something out to everybody (Aurora).


okay bud.

i am not going to argue why that was a bad distribution. that's very obvious. but that also means that the top holder have tons of coin to grease/buy developments and push the coin forward. as we have been seeing. so i am not here to kick down any coins. I care less.

i can't read the future. all people been telling you is that is much riskier investment. you got a coin with bad history and serious accusation, but at the same time it is moving along and trying to find its spot. you seem to have chosen your path. good luck in your investment.

devphp
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July 18, 2014, 08:00:04 AM
 #86

@atoni,

blockchain analysis reveals that more than 300 accounts have successfully generated blocks in the past 30 days (more accounts than that are staking, it's just those 300+ were successful).
You can see the block generation graph here:
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_charts
'Others' constitute more than 300 accounts.
NXT is nowhere close to 51% attack.

Distribution is still going on, by the way, and it'll take some more time. Whales are selling, again, blockchain analysis, which means sooner or later, the distribution will reach the Pareto principle.
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July 18, 2014, 08:01:38 AM
 #87

Why is 3000 or 5000 or even 10000 stakeholder of NEM better than 70 in NXT. Nothing is fair when we talking about money. Money need to be transparent not fair. Is Bitcoin unfair because of his creator? Satoshi fortune is around 1M Bitcoins, maybe more.

its simple statistics. why do they use the word "fair distribution" "decentralized" ?

simply put.

if 5000 people took part and they are all unique shares (hence fair distributed). let say 10,000 coin for each.

even if no one else is interested into buying once it hits and exchange there is a 50-50 chance that it will be half sell and half hold between current share holders.  
assuming half selling then its 25 000 000 coins sold.
half holding mean that there is 2500 shareholders who will probably buy all this 25,000,000 coins back
hence leaving 50,000,000 coin between 2500 people. or considering a mass panic sells then 50 mill coin between 1200 people who held their coins and bought more.

doing it the other way with only 70 people. at 50 mill coins thats ~714000 coins per person.
very low number to think it will be 50-50 sell or hold. it wont mater. (hence bad distributed)
even if 10 people sell , that is massive sell order. leaving 60 people hoarding and 10 out
as a buyer will you jump and but this coin once its out in the exchange?
its a bad distribution model.


I don't understand the point in your hypothetical ramble.

NEM is already being traded on the asset exchange and it hasn't been dumped to death, neither has NXT.  There's a difference between handing out coins to investors / pseudo-investors and then giving something out to everybody (Aurora).


okay bud.

i am not going to argue why that was a bad distribution. that's very obvious. but that also means that the top holder have tons of coin to grease/buy developments and push the coin forward. as we have been seeing. so i am not here to kick down any coins. I care less.

i can't read the future. all people been telling you is that is much riskier investment. you got a coin with bad history and serious accusation, but at the same time it is moving along and trying to find its spot. you seem to have chosen your path. good luck in your investment.



So I disprove your FUD with simple proof and you retort with that?  NEM's distribution is better than anything out there unless you think POW is good distribution (maybe back in 2009 or 2010 when everything was pre-ASIC and pre-GPU but nowadays a small group of hardware kings dominate all the new mining coins).



There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
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July 18, 2014, 08:12:04 AM
 #88

NEM is just reaction form jealous guys who missed the train. Get over it. NXT is still cheap. Distribution is not over!

LWWE6dtTUXuaq36KTCne5XqMQHfhfwpadC
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July 18, 2014, 08:13:40 AM
 #89

NEM is just reaction form jealous guys who missed the train. Get over it. NXT is still cheap. Distribution is not over!

Litecoin is just reaction form jealous guys who missed the train.  Get over it.  Bitcoin is still cheap.  Distribution is not over!

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
bitwho
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July 18, 2014, 08:19:05 AM
 #90

Why is 3000 or 5000 or even 10000 stakeholder of NEM better than 70 in NXT. Nothing is fair when we talking about money. Money need to be transparent not fair. Is Bitcoin unfair because of his creator? Satoshi fortune is around 1M Bitcoins, maybe more.

its simple statistics. why do they use the word "fair distribution" "decentralized" ?

simply put.

if 5000 people took part and they are all unique shares (hence fair distributed). let say 10,000 coin for each.

even if no one else is interested into buying once it hits and exchange there is a 50-50 chance that it will be half sell and half hold between current share holders.  
assuming half selling then its 25 000 000 coins sold.
half holding mean that there is 2500 shareholders who will probably buy all this 25,000,000 coins back
hence leaving 50,000,000 coin between 2500 people. or considering a mass panic sells then 50 mill coin between 1200 people who held their coins and bought more.

doing it the other way with only 70 people. at 50 mill coins thats ~714000 coins per person.
very low number to think it will be 50-50 sell or hold. it wont mater. (hence bad distributed)
even if 10 people sell , that is massive sell order. leaving 60 people hoarding and 10 out
as a buyer will you jump and but this coin once its out in the exchange?
its a bad distribution model.


I don't understand the point in your hypothetical ramble.

NEM is already being traded on the asset exchange and it hasn't been dumped to death, neither has NXT.  There's a difference between handing out coins to investors / pseudo-investors and then giving something out to everybody (Aurora).


okay bud.

i am not going to argue why that was a bad distribution. that's very obvious. but that also means that the top holder have tons of coin to grease/buy developments and push the coin forward. as we have been seeing. so i am not here to kick down any coins. I care less.

i can't read the future. all people been telling you is that is much riskier investment. you got a coin with bad history and serious accusation, but at the same time it is moving along and trying to find its spot. you seem to have chosen your path. good luck in your investment.



So I disprove your FUD with simple proof and you retort with that?  NEM's distribution is better than anything out there unless you think POW is good distribution (maybe back in 2009 or 2010 when everything was pre-ASIC and pre-GPU but nowadays a small group of hardware kings dominate all the new mining coins).



welp, you sure proved me wrong. again i am not here to attack coins but since you are looking for it . here is the latest successful distributed pow coin. dogecoin.

from http://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-dogecoin-addresses.html
Balance   Addresses   % Addresses (Total)   Coins   $USD   % Coins (Total)
0 - 0.0001   198270   23.65% (100%)    0.6240 DOGE   0.00016 USD    0% (100%)
0.001 - 0.01   2119   0.25% (76.35%)    10.05 DOGE   0.0025 USD    0% (100%)
0.01 - 0.1   19305   2.3% (76.09%)    593.52 DOGE   0.1476 USD    0% (100%)
0.1 - 1   21680   2.59% (73.79%)    8,291 DOGE   2.06 USD    0% (100%)
1 - 10   176094   21.01% (71.2%)    594,614 DOGE   147.89 USD    0% (100%)
10 - 100   107116   12.78% (50.19%)    3,676,873 DOGE   914.48 USD    0% (100%)
100 - 1,000   92202   11% (37.41%)    34,593,705 DOGE   8,604 USD    0.04% (100%)
1,000 - 10,000   104029   12.41% (26.41%)    347,793,802 DOGE   86,501 USD    0.4% (99.96%)
10,000 - 100,000   75569   9.02% (14%)    2,593,198,811 DOGE   644,961 USD    2.96% (99.56%)
100,000 - 1,000,000   34058   4.06% (4.99%)    10,276,964,639 DOGE   2,556,009 USD    11.73% (96.6%)
1,000,000 - 10,000,000   6961   0.83% (0.92%)    17,381,387,125 DOGE   4,322,967 USD    19.84% (84.87%)
10,000,000 - 100,000,000   707   0.08% (0.09%)    16,416,557,011 DOGE   4,083,002 USD    18.73% (65.04%)
100,000,000 - 1,000,000,000   58   0.01% (0.01%)    10,852,031,927 DOGE   2,699,035 USD    12.38% (46.3%)
1,000,000,000 - 10,000,000,000   7

there is 176094 wallet addresses holding between 10-100 doge coin..

and your NEM will distribute to what.. few thousands people. which last time i checked there is like ~1500 unique users in BTT. so already we can see there are people taking more then one stake.

and then what. where will the new influx of new people will come to NEM coin come from? What is it offering that is different? is it good enough to grow in numbers not just in $$volumes?
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July 18, 2014, 08:21:56 AM
 #91

NEM is just reaction form jealous guys who missed the train. Get over it. NXT is still cheap. Distribution is not over!

Litecoin is just reaction form jealous guys who missed the train.  Get over it.  Bitcoin is still cheap.  Distribution is not over!

Maybe you should read these. "Litecoin's silver analogy" from the Litecoin creator: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=21124.0

LWWE6dtTUXuaq36KTCne5XqMQHfhfwpadC
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July 18, 2014, 08:27:17 AM
 #92

It seems to me from my limited knowledge that these are the two new competitors to bitcoin and I was wondering which one had more advantages over the other.

Mainly I'm wondering about the underlying technology, i.e. NXT vs CryptoNote. Which one has a better chance of becoming a successful alternative to btc/ltc?

Are there any glaring problems in either technology that I should know about?

How about the dev teams? Are both technologies supported by a robust and active development team?

People's main argument in favour of bitcoin is that bitcoin can always add whatever features are implemented on altcoins. But from what I can tell bitcoin is the old dinosaur very resistant to change and anything but agile. Bitcoin doesn't even seem to be interested in addressing the problems that it has, let alone adding new features or upgrades.

So what features really stand out about either technology?

Does anyone feel that either codebase is objectively better than bitcoin? Or are we not quite there yet?

I am pretty sure that all of them will succeed in some way. The market will stay shared and will be shared even more.
There will never be ONE currency, and that is good!
I think that in 5 years we will have a overall market cap of some trillions.
BTC, NXT, NEM, MONERO, BYTECOIN will eventually have a share of 5-10% of it.
High likely a share of 5% to 30% will have revolutional new ideas like maidsafe or Ethereum and bitshares.
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July 18, 2014, 08:33:09 AM
 #93

they're still susceptable by flat out purchasing by a centralized banking system.

Not really, before they purchase anything close to 50% of the PoS currency, the price will shoot through the roof and this PoS currency becomes world reserve currency at that point. Unlike PoW currency, where they can buy enough hardware for much less money and destroy the PoW currency or flat out ban mining/force it to regulation since it's all becoming centralized mining now in 2-3 places.

IMO this post explains it all excellently. Go read Szalasz blog (he is long standing nxt veteran and nxt champion) where founders explain how they released only 25% of coins and still control 75% (even if its not only bcnext but if its really 2-3 his friends involved, we are looking at 3-4 closely connected people).

So think about its security. for them to control over 50% of network they dont have to buy anything, they already control it. So its not problem of only initial distribution but of current one as well and its closely connected to how secure it is. Not to mention that almost all fees paid in nxt go directly to them too.

And nxt shouldnt be called first crypto 2.0, it copied everything from ripple that was made 2 years before it (and its still not even close to what ripple can do, so if ripple set standards for crypto 2.0 other shitclones dont even come close yet).

Also, look at what happened to ripple when 1 founder decided to sell his stash of only 9% of currency. In nxt case there is sword of demaclos in form of 75% of currency or 8X bigger issue.

We will see if NEM POI manages to solve risk associated with pos currencies especially ones like in case of nxt where 2-3 friends control almost entire network and can do literally anything they want with it.

Its an equivalent of qhash owning 75% of bitcoin mining, but even there its difference because qhash is consisted of many miners that they can easily exclude from network while in nxt case you cant exclude 2-3 friends.
 

@devphp

Read again my post, its not only who got fees, its the security of network that is connected to 3 people only (which is still possible its all just 1 person).

And argument that 300 accounts generated blocks is laughable, nxt blocks happen each 1,7 minutes, how many times a day is that? of course some outsider got lucky since we are talking about 1,7 minutes * day * 30 days, thats quite a lot of blocks.

Thats why distribution in pos is important, because of its security, and not because who got rich when. That is talk for little kids. But security is IMPORTANT question.
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July 18, 2014, 08:36:27 AM
 #94

@atoni,

I see, you're into conspiracy theories here, well, that's without me Smiley
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July 18, 2014, 08:48:05 AM
 #95

@atoni,

I see, you're into conspiracy theories here, well, that's without me Smiley

Which conspiracy theory? Are you saying Szalasz blog with JL777hodl explaining it all lies? Are you actually saying that JL777hodl is making conspiracy theories to hurt nxt? lol
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July 18, 2014, 08:54:28 AM
 #96

NXT is the best.You want know why?Just look the NXT official thread again.
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July 18, 2014, 09:08:27 AM
 #97

Which conspiracy theory?

this one Grin
Quote from: atoni
the security of network that is connected to 3 people only (which is still possible its all just 1 person).
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July 18, 2014, 09:51:18 AM
 #98

NXT is the best.You want know why?Just look the NXT official thread again.

And see what? how they plan to copy ripple?

Lets see:

Ripple native functions (made 2 years ago): instant transactions, asset exchange, aliases, currency issuing, gateways, and most important and what nxt will have hard time copying financial highway (send any currency anyway, trade in any order book, and all that for incredibly small fees).

Nxt development: we want to make instant transactions, asset exchange, aliases, we want to make currency issuing, we want to make gateways.....

For a copy cat.....
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July 18, 2014, 09:52:12 AM
 #99

Which conspiracy theory?

this one Grin
Quote from: atoni
the security of network that is connected to 3 people only (which is still possible its all just 1 person).

IMO nxt distribution is common knowledge of this forum, only thing unknown if it was 3 different people or is it all same person.

Only thing people on this forum confuse is telling how someone got rich on nxt, instead of focusing what distribution means for security of pos coins.
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July 18, 2014, 09:53:42 AM
 #100

Let's agree to make it one person not to beat around the bush any longer and we can end this discussion Grin
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