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Author Topic: [XCR] Crypti | Dapps | Sidechains | Dapp Store | OPEN SOURCE | 100% own code | DPoS  (Read 804605 times)
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GreXX
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June 27, 2014, 01:33:04 AM
 #281

Quote from the whitepaper:

Quote
The transaction fees will be awarded as follows:

Transaction fees will be 1% of the total transaction amount, paid by the merchant. If you transfer 100 Crypti from your account to another, you will charged a 1 Crypti fee to process the transaction. This is the basis of how Crypti will be able to reward users without inflating the total currency in circulation.

That 1% fee will be added to all other fees within that block, and 50% of the Tx fee will always go to the Forger. This is the person on the network with the highest current weight as a factor of Proof-of-Purchase (PoP) + Proof-of-Time (PoT). These will be explained in detail shortly.

The other 50% depends on whether or not the transaction was a purchase activity to a validated merchant, or simply a traditional transfer to another user or non-validated service (i.e. an exchange). If the transaction was a purchase activity (i.e. you bought something from a validated merchant), then this 50% of the transaction fee will be awarded to the merchant account that you purchased the goods from. If no merchant was involved, the entire 100% of this reward will go to the Forger.

So, if I send crypti from my account to another normal (non-business) account, I will have to pay 1% to the forger. This is a disaster. Unacceptable. This would be the most hated coin in the world.

If you want to correct this by charging lower fees for transactions of this type (to non-business accounts), then nobody will want to be a business account - it's better to pay lower fee than get back half of the business fee.

So the whole idea seems to be flawed, no?

Well for starters, you are being very melodramatic. While several have voiced opinions about 1% being too much, I have tried to explain the rationale and we are working on a solution to make this a little bit more bearable in the long term. But in regards to your specific complaints, I will try to answer them from my perspective.

If you are sending money from one account to another, odds are that you are doing some form of transaction, such as selling Crypti, Moving it to an exchange, or buying something from someone online. Moving it from one account to another doesn't seem like something you should need to do very often just for fun and so I don't see where this would be an issue.

To put this 1% fee in perspective, here are some typical fees to transfer money to other people from other services commonly used:

- Walmart 2 Walmart : Starts at $4.50
- Money Gram: Starts at $4.75
- Western Union: Fee for $100 = $5.00

Now obviously these services aren't Crypto Currencies and so I understand the differentiation, but we are trying to build a coin that long term is appealing to forgers. Because no new coins are generated, we wanted to encourage people to run nodes. If the fees are too small, the rewards are as well and people will stop running nodes and in return deteriorate the network.

I often try to remind people who are critical of the 1% fee that you yourself will be forging these fees as payment for running a node. It's highly possible that you could forge 5, 10, or even 20 blocks before you actually move any currency or pay a fee yourself, so in the long run, it creates a profitable market for forgers who choose to support the currency long term. You are going to have to choose what is important to you. An easy system where you simply run a node and forge substantial blocks that are created with a 1% fee, or a currency where you mine all day long to earn 1 fraction of half of 1/3rd of a penny. Our system requires you to pay absolutely $0 up front on equipment (like PoW), we require to own no currency in order to earn (like PoS), we simply require a 1% fee on transactions.

Keep in mind that most exchanges charge transaction fees and almost any web service you use based on any crypto currency also charges fees. Your pools for mining take anywhere from 1%-4% on average on everything you mine, and it just goes in their pockets. Here we are taking all of those fees and funneling them back into the wallets of people who love Crypti. To me, this seems much more equitable than the other way. Not to mention that Bitcoin does have a transaction fee built into the protocol, we simply haven't really seen it in action much yet. It will be much more so once all of the coins are mined.

All of that being said, we are discussing making the transaction fee scale based on network volume in order to decrease the fees as the network grows. This is something we believe keeps payments to forgers at an amount that will convince them to continue to run nodes, but also help make the fee more manageable for users.

Again I will say, all of this is open to adjustment until the IPO and beta phase are complete and we go live. If the numbers just seem crazy off and everyone is of the opinion that it is too high or too low, etc, we will take all of that into consideration.

I think once everyone sees it in action it will be worth it.

These are just my thoughts from my perspective and are not indicative of everyone, so if I said anything crazy, just take it out on me! :-)


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June 27, 2014, 01:33:48 AM
Last edit: June 27, 2014, 01:48:14 AM by GreXX
 #282

Quote
The pre-sale will end on July 30th, 24:00 GMT. Each week ends on Monday 24:00 GMT.

Does this mean the bonus is reduced every week? Or is it reduced every day?

Can someone please answer this Wink

I answered this but then I second guessed my answer. Let me double check our boards and with the team to make sure I am not lying here. We had 2 main proposals initially, one was a weekly decrease in bonus and a second was a more constant decrease based on volume sold, so let me verify which we went with and I will get back to you.

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June 27, 2014, 01:36:15 AM
 #283

I want to come in the IPO sale yes please..


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June 27, 2014, 02:35:44 AM
 #284

How the IPO?

I’m me
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June 27, 2014, 02:37:58 AM
 #285

How the IPO?

IPO will be started 30 June. If you want to get notify, please, follow our twitter - https://twitter.com/CryptiCoin or provide your email here - http://crypti.me
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June 27, 2014, 03:24:26 AM
 #286

How the IPO?

IPO will be started 30 June. If you want to get notify, please, follow our twitter - https://twitter.com/CryptiCoin or provide your email here - http://crypti.me
thx

I’m me
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June 27, 2014, 04:16:27 AM
 #287

Quote from the whitepaper:

Quote
The transaction fees will be awarded as follows:

Transaction fees will be 1% of the total transaction amount, paid by the merchant. If you transfer 100 Crypti from your account to another, you will charged a 1 Crypti fee to process the transaction. This is the basis of how Crypti will be able to reward users without inflating the total currency in circulation.

That 1% fee will be added to all other fees within that block, and 50% of the Tx fee will always go to the Forger. This is the person on the network with the highest current weight as a factor of Proof-of-Purchase (PoP) + Proof-of-Time (PoT). These will be explained in detail shortly.

The other 50% depends on whether or not the transaction was a purchase activity to a validated merchant, or simply a traditional transfer to another user or non-validated service (i.e. an exchange). If the transaction was a purchase activity (i.e. you bought something from a validated merchant), then this 50% of the transaction fee will be awarded to the merchant account that you purchased the goods from. If no merchant was involved, the entire 100% of this reward will go to the Forger.

So, if I send crypti from my account to another normal (non-business) account, I will have to pay 1% to the forger. This is a disaster. Unacceptable. This would be the most hated coin in the world.

If you want to correct this by charging lower fees for transactions of this type (to non-business accounts), then nobody will want to be a business account - it's better to pay lower fee than get back half of the business fee.

So the whole idea seems to be flawed, no?

Well for starters, you are being very melodramatic. While several have voiced opinions about 1% being too much, I have tried to explain the rationale and we are working on a solution to make this a little bit more bearable in the long term. But in regards to your specific complaints, I will try to answer them from my perspective.

If you are sending money from one account to another, odds are that you are doing some form of transaction, such as selling Crypti, Moving it to an exchange, or buying something from someone online. Moving it from one account to another doesn't seem like something you should need to do very often just for fun and so I don't see where this would be an issue.

To put this 1% fee in perspective, here are some typical fees to transfer money to other people from other services commonly used:

- Walmart 2 Walmart : Starts at $4.50
- Money Gram: Starts at $4.75
- Western Union: Fee for $100 = $5.00

Now obviously these services aren't Crypto Currencies and so I understand the differentiation, but we are trying to build a coin that long term is appealing to forgers. Because no new coins are generated, we wanted to encourage people to run nodes. If the fees are too small, the rewards are as well and people will stop running nodes and in return deteriorate the network.

I often try to remind people who are critical of the 1% fee that you yourself will be forging these fees as payment for running a node. It's highly possible that you could forge 5, 10, or even 20 blocks before you actually move any currency or pay a fee yourself, so in the long run, it creates a profitable market for forgers who choose to support the currency long term. You are going to have to choose what is important to you. An easy system where you simply run a node and forge substantial blocks that are created with a 1% fee, or a currency where you mine all day long to earn 1 fraction of half of 1/3rd of a penny. Our system requires you to pay absolutely $0 up front on equipment (like PoW), we require to own no currency in order to earn (like PoS), we simply require a 1% fee on transactions.

Keep in mind that most exchanges charge transaction fees and almost any web service you use based on any crypto currency also charges fees. Your pools for mining take anywhere from 1%-4% on average on everything you mine, and it just goes in their pockets. Here we are taking all of those fees and funneling them back into the wallets of people who love Crypti. To me, this seems much more equitable than the other way. Not to mention that Bitcoin does have a transaction fee built into the protocol, we simply haven't really seen it in action much yet. It will be much more so once all of the coins are mined.

All of that being said, we are discussing making the transaction fee scale based on network volume in order to decrease the fees as the network grows. This is something we believe keeps payments to forgers at an amount that will convince them to continue to run nodes, but also help make the fee more manageable for users.

Again I will say, all of this is open to adjustment until the IPO and beta phase are complete and we go live. If the numbers just seem crazy off and everyone is of the opinion that it is too high or too low, etc, we will take all of that into consideration.

I think once everyone sees it in action it will be worth it.

These are just my thoughts from my perspective and are not indicative of everyone, so if I said anything crazy, just take it out on me! :-)




I also think a flat 1% fee can be ok. But, I would temper that with a max fee.

Why should a forger/miner/node whatever you call them get 1000 CRY for a block they generate because it happens to have a large transaction in it, vs another node gets .1 CRY for a block they generate cause it moved 1 CRY? The work done be each account was the same. The stake amount was perhaps the same, etc.

I also do like the suggestion that a verified merchant account pays a 1% fee to receive a transaction while the sender pays say a 1 CRY fee for any transaction. Although, the bottom line is, espesially when sending to an exchange, you know it is the sender that is paying the 1%. Cause if I send say 10,000 CRY to BTER, and they get 9,900 you know they are going to credit my account with 9,900 not 10,000.

I am glad to hear you are open to adjusting it based on transaction volume and other use cases though.
 
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June 27, 2014, 05:38:54 AM
 #288

IPO amount?

Total amount?
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June 27, 2014, 06:12:08 AM
 #289

IPO amount?

Total amount?

100.000.000 coins
Crypti allocation

    75% of the genesis block will be devoted to the pre-sale auction and will be sold to the community
    15% of the genesis block will be devoted to the initial investor, the creator and lead developer of the project, and the Crypti R&D team
    10% of the genesis block will be devoted to the post-launch development of Crypti, along with the pre-sale funds. It will also be kept in a public account so all transactions can be monitored, and cover the development tasks described above.

IOTA
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June 27, 2014, 01:30:54 PM
 #290

IPO amount?

Total amount?

100.000.000 coins
Crypti allocation

    75% of the genesis block will be devoted to the pre-sale auction and will be sold to the community
    15% of the genesis block will be devoted to the initial investor, the creator and lead developer of the project, and the Crypti R&D team
    10% of the genesis block will be devoted to the post-launch development of Crypti, along with the pre-sale funds. It will also be kept in a public account so all transactions can be monitored, and cover the development tasks described above.
that means 75% of totla for  IPO??
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June 27, 2014, 01:34:01 PM
 #291

yes

INVALID BBCODE: close of unopened tag in table (1)
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June 27, 2014, 04:57:09 PM
 #292


                                   

                                 Interested just watching for now.
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June 27, 2014, 07:58:06 PM
 #293

GreXX - thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.  I'm not fully convinced but I can see there is upside and downside.

But another thing - security. Is it difficult to attack Crypti? I don't see where is the trouble.

Combination of 3 PoS algorithms:

    Proof-of-Purchase (purchases done since the last won forged block)
    Proof-of-Time (node running up-time)
    Proof-of-Identity (merchant address real-life validation)


Proof of Identity is specific for merchants. Proof of Time is easy to get, without the need to sacrifice much. So Proof of Purchase will be the most important. But what is at stake here (for the block creators)?

In proof of work there is a risk of loss of future mining profits, investment already made, equipment costly to get
In proof of stake (nxtlike) the stake is at risk and it is costly to get the stake (hopefully)
but here in Crypti -  if you purchase something it's costly but you receive the merchandise in return. So you actually don't risk anything, you don't have to sacrifice anything. You can get power to verify transactions without significant risks or sacrifices

Or am I wrong? Once again, simple question - what is at stake here?



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June 27, 2014, 08:07:45 PM
 #294

Hmm this sounds interesting. I will watch this thread.

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June 27, 2014, 09:00:19 PM
Last edit: June 28, 2014, 09:34:16 AM by xtester
 #295

Looks interesting.

Do you have an idea how the projected development timeline will look like?

E.g. 30 June IPO & beta launch --->  30 July IPO end & Main Net launch ---> ?

Is the second step correct? Also, do you have any exchange, merchants or services planned for immediately after the launch of the main net?
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June 27, 2014, 10:44:53 PM
 #296

The rule of IPO can be unlished earlier than Jun 30.

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June 28, 2014, 01:19:57 AM
 #297

GreXX - thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.  I'm not fully convinced but I can see there is upside and downside.

But another thing - security. Is it difficult to attack Crypti? I don't see where is the trouble.

Combination of 3 PoS algorithms:

    Proof-of-Purchase (purchases done since the last won forged block)
    Proof-of-Time (node running up-time)
    Proof-of-Identity (merchant address real-life validation)


Proof of Identity is specific for merchants. Proof of Time is easy to get, without the need to sacrifice much. So Proof of Purchase will be the most important. But what is at stake here (for the block creators)?

In proof of work there is a risk of loss of future mining profits, investment already made, equipment costly to get
In proof of stake (nxtlike) the stake is at risk and it is costly to get the stake (hopefully)
but here in Crypti -  if you purchase something it's costly but you receive the merchandise in return. So you actually don't risk anything, you don't have to sacrifice anything. You can get power to verify transactions without significant risks or sacrifices

Or am I wrong? Once again, simple question - what is at stake here?



I am not sure I know exactly what your saying we would be susceptible to. Could you clarify what form of attack you are referencing? Sybil, Finney, something else?

Keep in mind that weight is reset for purchases as well as node up-time on every block that node forges. The nodes cumulative weight is reset after each block it forges basically.

If you can give a hypothetical scenario or walk through an attack you would carry out against the network, we will try to directly refute it.

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June 28, 2014, 06:47:19 AM
 #298

Ok. I'll ask another way. What's the equivalent of 51% attack here? What proportion of purchases in what period is needed to abuse the system?

Resetting of uptime and purchases after each forged block makes no difference here. Any real attacker will have many nodes with sufficient uptime and can distribute new purchases accordingly. There is also possibility of fake purchases - "send the money to yourself" type. True, there is 1% fee (actually half of it) but this will be compensated by forging blocks.
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June 28, 2014, 06:59:18 AM
 #299

So what have you decided about the IPO?

You said you were thinking about lowering the 25% dev/future fund or was that just smoke?





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June 28, 2014, 09:41:31 AM
 #300

Ok. I'll ask another way. What's the equivalent of 51% attack here? What proportion of purchases in what period is needed to abuse the system?

Resetting of uptime and purchases after each forged block makes no difference here. Any real attacker will have many nodes with sufficient uptime and can distribute new purchases accordingly. There is also possibility of fake purchases - "send the money to yourself" type. True, there is 1% fee (actually half of it) but this will be compensated by forging blocks.

I have the same concern.
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